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Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning


laPapessaGiovanna

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I’m devastated for Joy and Austin, no parent should have to bury their child and despite their shitty beliefs or agenda, at the end of the day they are very young adults suffering a tragic and devastating loss. I hope they find time to heal and process properly. I loss 2 babies myself and while they were not as far along (9 weeks and 13 weeks) both that been developing normally up until their hearts stopped. That pain never goes away but you learn to live with it. I will never be the same as I was. My Mom delivered my sister at 25wks in 1981 and she lived 2 days. She was such a rock during my losses and I hope Michelle can be the same for Joy

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I'd imagine it must be pretty hard right now too for the three pregnant sisters-in-law who are expecting girls at the same time Annabell was due. I'd imagine they'd be feeling some extra anxiety about their own pregnancies. Obviously it's not nearly as hard as it will be for Joy but there's got to be some mixed feelings there.

Edited by Rachel333
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The photos Carlin and Joy shared are really beautiful. Joy looks like a whole other person, I think partially due to makeup and partially to circumstance. It's really powerful to see photos like that and know that the people in them are going through a thing that will change their lives forever. 

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28 minutes ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

Even though I am very opposed to the Duggar belief system, I can’t help but feel heartbroken for Joy, especially after seeing these photos. 

I also have to say she looks so brave in these pictures. I don’t know if I could’ve held it together even for a second. 

I am so conflicted by the lack of basic privacy and boundaries within this family, even when it comes to every day issues. I find myself unable to image being in Joy’s  position and trying to navigate this very difficult road all in the public arena. I cringe when I think about Joy, who up until 2 years ago has had the responsibility, freedoms and decision making opportunities of about a 10 year old, having to physically and mentally process all that has just happened to her, while having it all documented on social media, and likely for the camera and public consumption, in real time. I would want to bolt and hide- it’s too much and borders on others being voyeuristic. I hope that Joy and Austin have made the decision as to what to share and are not being pressured into the spot light for the dog and pony show. Personally, I’d be tightly closing my circle-

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13 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

The photos Carlin and Joy shared are really beautiful. Joy looks like a whole other person, I think partially due to makeup and partially to circumstance. It's really powerful to see photos like that and know that the people in them are going through a thing that will change their lives forever. 

The picture is beautiful, I have seen on twitter and other platforms a growing number of parent's posting pictures of their still born babies and speaking more openly about it trying to break the stigma. Some of the mother's have then gotten abuse from people who don't want to see the pictures, I can understand them being triggering but you can unfollow or mute people if you don't want to see the image no need to be abusive.

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The picture with Jill & Michelle is just heartbreaking. The look on poor Joy’s face...so much anguish in one picture.

 

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18 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

The picture with Jill & Michelle is just heartbreaking. The look on poor Joy’s face...so much anguish in one picture.

 

And poor Austin with those circles under his eyes looks like he hasn’t slept in a good long time. 

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3 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Unless you work for TLC or know the Duggars personally,  you do not know this. Just stop alreay!  Geez.  

 

Oh. I thought this was a snark forum where we are allowed to post our opinions without being policed? My misunderstanding.

Edited by luv2laugh
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3 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

On the subject of the ignore feature.

I am not a fan.

I am.  Sometimes, calling folks out on their shyte makes no difference at all. Rather than pretend ignore, I really ignore by using that functionality. Makes my FJ experience far better.

I won't say more, as drifting in this thread somehow does't seem appropriate, to me. Lord knows I can't stand the Duggars, none of them, but as a fellow human I can't help but feel compassion at times like this. Tragedy befalls us all, fundy or not, religious or not. It's the price of being part of homo sapiens. 

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28 minutes ago, bella8050 said:

I saw this comment from the Bates family on the pictures. I'm super private and I could only imagine sharing such photos with a select few, but I can see the other side of it of wanting to share the love for a baby that's lost as much as one that lived.

 

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I agree.  I have had several friends that experienced a second and third trimester pregnancy loss and everyone dealt with it differently.  One didn’t tell anyone until she had delivered and cremated the body. They never showed pictures.  Another at a similar gestation(22 weeks) put up pictures and talked about her baby; she felt that she wanted the world to see her baby and know he existed.  I support people grieving in whatever manner helps them the best.  

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29 minutes ago, bella8050 said:

I saw this comment from the Bates family on the pictures. I'm super private and I could only imagine sharing such photos with a select few, but I can see the other side of it of wanting to share the love for a baby that's lost as much as one that lived.

 

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That statement is very heartfelt and beautiful, but...it’s still sad that those photos needed to be shared with the public at large. Family, close or intimate friends I fully understand- 

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God, a few comments on her post are making me angry one flat out accused them of having people come in do a photoshoot. While I'm sure it will be reported in tabloid's and magazines. I do not believe that is why they had their pictures with Annabell or Carlin do her hair and makeup. 

 

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21 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

What Pickles has done crosses a serious line. HIPAA is in place for a reason. A person’s medical information is to be kept private unless they choose to share.

HIPAA applies, by its own terms, only to medical & health care providers. As long as Pickles isn't their health care provider, HIPAA doesn't apply to people just gossiping about the topic. No violation is happening here. 

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4 hours ago, Gnomewizard said:

I have had two spontaneous abortions and one missed abortion (I opted for a D&C). I prefer to use the medical terminology rather that call it a miscarriage. I feel that ignorance is feeding the forced borth movement and I will not dumb down my language when talking about my experience. 

I cannot recall how my OB referred to them with me but coming from a medical family and understanding what the terms mean I would not have blinked an eye or been offended if she referred  to them as abortions.

I have carried out abortions. My professional language choice is absolutely nothing to do with forced birth or managing any kind of stigma around an abortion here. The medical term here (as defined by the college of obstetricians and gynaecology for instance) is miscarriage, not spontaneous abortion. If another Australian health professional used spontaneous abortion I’d assume they were either 90 or still at university. Obstetrics here has become more patient focused over the years (thank Rufus!) and clarity of language for both patients and staff is important. Using a term which is precise, isn’t going to be confused if the first word is missed/misheard and which we can use freely with patients and staff is important. It isn’t dumbing down a term so much as getting rid of redundancy. We don’t use abortion medically for an elective ending to a pregnancy either what it’s worth-termination (or medical vs surgical termination) are how I and others refer to them clinically. We obviously have different language around pregnancy here to in the US, but our focus is definitely on clarity and being patient centred rather than forced birth or dumbing down of the populace.

6 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Interesting that you separate them. I was taught to just record GPA, in which any pregnancy loss that isn't counted as a stillbirth would count towards the "A." Of course that's just for records, though, and isn't something that the patient would ever need to hear.

(Again, speaking generally, as I believe Joy's loss is considered a stillbirth in the US and thus the above would not apply.)

I find it useful because I have different risks in mind if someone tells me a patient is G4P1M3 vs G4P1T3. Sometimes people drop the T or M completely and just leave it as G4P1. From what they’ve said publicly Joy’s loss would be a stillbirth here too (a pregnancy of either greater than 20 weeks gestation or 400 grams).

I hate the ultrasound for fun places. I’ve seen a couple of terrible diagnoses and miscarriages or stillbirths which were picked up by them in a very traumatic way. 

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14 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

God, a few comments on her post are making me angry one flat out accused them of having people come in do a photoshoot. While I'm sure it will be reported in tabloid's and magazines. I do not believe that is why they had their pictures with Annabell or Carlin do her hair and makeup. 

 

Oh I agree so much with this comment @Glasgowghirl. If I lost a baby and was having what was essentially my ONLY family portrait with that baby taken I'd absolutely want to look my best. How many of the people making that accusation wouldn't dress up for a regular formal family portrait? This, heartbreaking as it is, is basically the same thing.

Heck, if there are people coming in to do a photoshoot, you know what? Many hospitals employ photographers specifically for that purpose! So that parents who lost babies to stillbirth or neonatal death who want family pictures taken can have ANY kind of record of their baby.

Yes, they're sharing the pictures, but so do other parents who lost their babies. It just sounds like an incredibly hypocritical accusation to make to me. People can be so terrible to each other.

Edited by metheglyn
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Krista Gay wrote an excellent piece on Tumblr titled "You Don't Get To Tell Others How To Grieve."  She touches on the infant loss, taking photos, why they are important, and how they help parents grieve and remember among other things. She also gave suggestions of supporting grieving parents who suffered the loss of an infant.  It was well thought out and a very nice supportive piece for Joy and Austin. 

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My only problem with people posting pictures of their stillborn babies is that may be triggering or unsettling to other people. Posting it as not the first pic in the album or not the insta cover photo sufficiently guard against this.  

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27 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

God, a few comments on her post are making me angry one flat out accused them of having people come in do a photoshoot. 

 

apparently it's common. In that movie return to zero - the doctor said it's encouraged. 

return to zero is all about what joy is going through - althought that lady was 8 months pregnant. 

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3 minutes ago, nst said:

apparently it's common. In that movie return to zero - the doctor said it's encouraged. 

return to zero is all about what joy is going through - althought that lady was 8 months pregnant. 

The night we were told we’d lose our then-18 week pregnancy the hospital social worker offered to call the local Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep photographer. They were so kind and compassionate.  All the organization does is infant and pregnancy loss photos.

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3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

They just suffered a devastating loss. If they choose to use Annabell to further their pro-life agenda in the future then I’ll be happy to call their views out at that point. They haven’t done anything remotely like that so far though. I’m personally willing to offer them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they aren’t doing anything calculated by releasing these photos for now.

I also think it's understandable that one's religious beliefs would inform how one grieves. To them, this is a fully formed human endowed with a soul by God and as much their child as Gideon is. So it makes sense they want photos with her. There doesn't necessarily have to be any more of an agenda in that then a Jew sitting shiva or a Muslim making dua after a relative passes. 

I'll even say--if they want to use these pictures to convince others that a 20 week fetus is a baby, that doesn't really bother me. I don't have an issue with them being anti-abortion personally. My only problem is when they want to force their views on others via government mandates. 

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4 minutes ago, sableduck said:

The night we were told we’d lose our then-18 week pregnancy the hospital social worker offered to call the local Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep photographer. They were so kind and compassionate.  All the organization does is infant and pregnancy loss photos.

Yup. I was just coming out of lurkdom to post this. Any hospital big enough has on call photographers for this reason. I don’t like the Duggar’s beliefs but I would never judge anyone for how the choose to handle a loss. I seriously don’t give a duck if joy got all fancy looking so that she could have a few cherished pictures of a clearly loved and wanted baby. I can’t believ they are getting attacked for that. Fuck this country is going in the pits.

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9 minutes ago, PurpleCats said:

My only problem with people posting pictures of their stillborn babies is that may be triggering or unsettling to other people. Posting it as not the first pic in the album or not the insta cover photo sufficiently guard against this.  

I understand your point and I do think it’s a valid one - the triggering part, not really the unsettling part.* However, I don’t think it should be the responsibility of the grieving parents to guard the feelings of other people they may or may not even know while they’re living through an incredibly traumatic experience. They’re already dealing with enough as it is. I just don’t think it’s fair to put that extra responsibility on them when they might be barely holding themselves together as it is. 

*Triggering implies they’ve experienced a trauma in their own past and that’s something I’ll always be sympathetic to. Unsettling implies they’re just uncomfortable though and while I sympathize with that I don’t think it carries the same importance. 

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7 minutes ago, lovemygsp said:

Yup. I was just coming out of lurkdom to post this. Any hospital big enough has on call photographers for this reason. I don’t like the Duggar’s beliefs but I would never judge anyone for how the choose to handle a loss. I seriously don’t give a duck if joy got all fancy looking so that she could have a few cherished pictures of a clearly loved and wanted baby. I can’t believ they are getting attacked for that. Fuck this country is going in the pits.

I can also see this being Carlin's idea, since people often want to be helpful when around someone in mourning, and makeup and hair is something in her wheelhouse. Joy being laid back, or just numb from everything that's happened, went along with it to please her friend, and now she has to get shit for something that really doesn't matter at all. 

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I don't agree with their beliefs. However, I do feel sorry for Joy losing her grandmother suddenly and unexpectedly and then to go thru this on top it.  

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