Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning

[nolongerIFBx]

On 7/4/2019 at 10:44 AM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I don’t think they waited a week to tell exactly. I think they had to wait a few days for Joy to go into labor and deliver a stillborn baby. Something similar happened to me in my last pregnancy (it was just at the point where a heartbeat might or might not be visible) and the waiting is awful. I’m sure it’s much worse when the baby is big enough to feel. There’s no way they would do a D&C or even induce labor - they have Michelle’s example with Jubilee and it would be too much like an abortion (even for many women who are less rabidly pro-life than they are).

. . . .

Maybe, maybe not. I lost a sibling in the second trimester. My mom did choose to have a D&C once it was confirmed that the baby was dead. In utero deaths came up years later in a conversation I was having with my (then new) SIL and I asked her what she thought about D&Cs if the child was already dead. She said she'd never do it. But 5 years later it was her in the same situation and she did choose that route. We know Erin Bates Paine did too. I doubt that Michelle is any more rabidly pro-life then Erin Bates or my mother. Medically, yes there's a chance of infertility from an accident during a D&C but there's a chance for infertility due to infection if you let the fetus remain. I think that some women find it comforting to carry their baby a little longer and to go through labor as a way of grieving and others just want it over quickly. Neither grieves any less because of the route they choose; what they need to feel closure is different.

[Rachel333]

5 hours ago, jozina said:

In Australia we record GPMT (Gravida/Parity/Miscarriage/Termination).

While I learnt that a spontaneous abortion was a miscarriage in medical school and I'd expect another doctor to understand the term, I have never heard a doctor refer to a miscarriage that way in over a decade of working with many years in obstetrics and gynae. It's not something we say to patients and as a professional term it's very much going the way of the dodo here.

Interesting that you separate them. I was taught to just record GPA, in which any pregnancy loss that isn't counted as a stillbirth would count towards the "A." Of course that's just for records, though, and isn't something that the patient would ever need to hear.

(Again, speaking generally, as I believe Joy's loss is considered a stillbirth in the US and thus the above would not apply.)

Edited July 5, 2019 by Rachel333

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Do those places have any professional doctors or counselors on staff? Or are they merely for pictures and videos? 

Good question. This is from their website:

Spoiler

I'm very ignorant about the medical field, so I'm not sure how comparable their qualifications would be to those of other places. It doesn't look like there's a doctor on staff. I'm not sure whether they would refer potential issues to a doctor...

Edited July 5, 2019 by singsingsing

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Good question. This is from their website:

  Hide contents

I'm very ignorant about the medical field, so I'm not sure how comparable their qualifications would be to those of other places. It doesn't look like there's a doctor on staff. I'm not sure whether they would refer potential issues to a doctor...

Those ladies appear to US techs, which hospitals and other medical establishments providing USs do have the same level of care providers. The big difference is the ability to refer to a licensed medical for US interpretation. Techs typically do not offer diagnostic information. 

[Rachel333]

The decor of that place is... a lot.

Spoiler

 

[Rachel333]

There are more pictures on Joy and Austin's instagram, including some of them holding Annabell. They're very touching pictures and I'm glad they'll have them to remember her by. https://www.instagram.com/p/BziuPjkp-Ni/

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

28 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

Maybe, maybe not. I lost a sibling in the second trimester. My mom did choose to have a D&C once it was confirmed that the baby was dead. In utero deaths came up years later in a conversation I was having with my (then new) SIL and I asked her what she thought about D&Cs if the child was already dead. She said she'd never do it. But 5 years later it was her in the same situation and she did choose that route. We know Erin Bates Paine did too. I doubt that Michelle is any more rabidly pro-life then Erin Bates or my mother. Medically, yes there's a chance of infertility from an accident during a D&C but there's a chance for infertility due to infection if you let the fetus remain. I think that some women find it comforting to carry their baby a little longer and to go through labor as a way of grieving and others just want it over quickly. Neither grieves any less because of the route they choose; what they need to feel closure is different.

I remember some obnoxiously arrogant woman who was gossiping about another church member having an abortion, going on about how horrible it was and she hopped she was removed from the church membership. I didn't know the woman talking and I didn't know the woman who lost the baby, so I had no idea what was going on, but thankfully the pastors wife over heard this as well and interrupted the gossipers, saying the woman had not had an abortion, but had indeed miscarried. She then proceed to remind the women that gossiping was very unchristian like and she was extremely disappointed to hear them being so nasty to this poor woman who had just lost her baby and that kind of talk could get back to her and cause to deep pain and suffering.  I always did like the Pastors wife, and the Pastor of our church, it was just the members that caused us to leave, they were mostly made up of gossiping morally "superior" couples who we couldn't stand. 

[luv2laugh]

The picture of her crying while holding Annabell with Michelle and Jill looking over along with Austin is tragic.

 

I hope she is choosing to go public and is not being forced by Austin or JB & co.

Sadly, given the statistics and given the fact that most of the Duggar offspring are Quiverfull, this likely won’t be the last miscarriage. I wonder if some will “pull a Dillard” and refuse to allow TLC to film and quit the show. It comes down to if they will bite the hand that feeds them...

I find it sad that her Duggar PR grief statements are “keeping sweet” instead of being allowed to say “I’m completely devastated and it’s been traumatic. Pray for us.”

Edited July 5, 2019 by luv2laugh

[jillsdopplerofdoom]

26 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

There are more pictures on Joy and Austin's instagram, including some of them holding Annabell. They're very touching pictures and I'm glad they'll have them to remember her by. https://www.instagram.com/p/BziuPjkp-Ni/

 

So tragic but I'm sure Joy and Austin will treasure these photos forever. I'm glad Michelle and her former buddy Jill were there. I hope they can find some peace someday.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

The photos with J&A with Annabell are heartbreaking and sadly beautiful at the same time.  I'm happy to see Jill & Michelle there to support Joy and hope Austins parents are there as well for him. 

[VelociRapture]

Everything about that photo of them with Jill and Michelle is just so heartbreaking. Jill stroking Annabell’s head so tenderly, Austin looking so deflated, Michelle looking like she’s struggling to stay strong, and Joy just looking so devastated.

I’m so glad Jill was there with Joy and Austin. I know she gets criticized a lot for being socially incompetent and lacking in common sense (sometimes valid criticism and sometimes unfairly), but she raised Joy and appears to have a close bond with her. I would think Jill would be a genuine source of comfort for her right now. Same with Carlin. And for all her failings as a mother, I’m glad Michelle was there too - she knows the pain of losing a wanted baby at around that same gestational age and she could provide a good deal of support to Joy and Austin as a result. 

I hope Austin is doing ok too. Dads (and non-pregnant partners) have their own unique struggles to face when they lose a wanted pregnancy or baby. It can be very tough for some to juggle supporting their partner and family along with dealing with their own very powerful grief.

[frugalitymom]

2 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

And another level of gross is (I just saw on Tumblr) that she is asking if Ivy is gaining appropriate amounts of weight.  Really fat shaming a baby? Ffs.

I saw that and all I could wtf is wrong with her. I hope Pickles doesn’t have children she is probably crazy enough to put a baby on a diet 

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

My mom told me, “At least you know you can get pregnant and next time would be different,” while I was in the middle of miscarrying our first pregnancy. She honestly meant well and I love her dearly, but I wanted to slap her at that moment. I settled for glaring at her and saying something about how I didn’t want another baby, I wanted this one. She never said anything like that to me again about the subject. 

Making “at least” statements, no matter how well intentioned, minimizes the other person's feelings. It’s not helpful at all. If someone doesn’t know what to say then a simple, “I’m so sorry,” and offering to let them cry on your shoulder is a much better option. 

Likewise, telling someone with diagnosed anxiety to just “calm down” or “you need to relax” are equally unhelpful. My mom told me I just needed to relax when we were trying to conceive our second (Yes, because relaxing will fix my PCOS) and told me I need to calm down before a big ultrasound with this pregnancy (Despite knowing my medical history and the fact that I have every reason to be anxious this time around.) I let the first comment slide because I didn’t have the energy to argue it, but I flat out snapped at her over the second comment about how if it was that easy I wouldn’t have anxiety or be in therapy. 

So yeah. No “at least” comments when dealing with grief and no comments about calming down to people struggling with anxiety is a pretty solid rule to follow. 

I follow on Instagram the partner of a footballer. Whose oldest daughter Lola, was stillborn and she runs a charity in Lola's name. She made a post about a lot things people had said to her after she lost her child, including at least it wasn't a toddler you lost, you won't have to do night feeds and if you have a girl you can still name her Lola. 

[Gnomewizard]

8 hours ago, jozina said:

In Australia we record GPMT (Gravida/Parity/Miscarriage/Termination).

While I learnt that a spontaneous abortion was a miscarriage in medical school and I'd expect another doctor to understand the term, I have never heard a doctor refer to a miscarriage that way in over a decade of working with many years in obstetrics and gynae. It's not something we say to patients and as a professional term it's very much going the way of the dodo here.

Terrible situation for Joy and Austin.

I have had two spontaneous abortions and one missed abortion (I opted for a D&C). I prefer to use the medical terminology rather that call it a miscarriage. I feel that ignorance is feeding the forced borth movement and I will not dumb down my language when talking about my experience. 

I cannot recall how my OB referred to them with me but coming from a medical family and understanding what the terms mean I would not have blinked an eye or been offended if she referred  to them as abortions.

[mango_fandango]

38 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I follow on Instagram the partner of a footballer. Whose oldest daughter Lola, was stillborn and she runs a charity in Lola's name. She made a post about a lot things people had said to her after she lost her child, including at least it wasn't a toddler you lost, you won't have to do night feeds and if you have a girl you can still name her Lola. 

Fucking hell that is disgusting. “You won’t have to do night feeds??” What a slap in the face for that poor woman. 

[Glasgowghirl]

1 minute ago, mango_fandango said:

Fucking hell that is disgusting. “You won’t have to do night feeds??” What a slap in the face for that poor woman. 

I don't know why anyone would think that is an acceptable thing to say.

[HarleyQuinn]

I can't get emotional over these knowing their stance on women's reproductive rights. I could see why someone would want these photos privately but knowing how they speak and vote, it just seems calculated. 

[Rachel333]

6 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I can't get emotional over these knowing their stance on women's reproductive rights. I could see why someone would want these photos privately but knowing how they speak and vote, it just seems calculated. 

I am absolutely certain that they will use this loss to further their anti-choice agenda at some point, but right now in the immediate aftermath of a devastating loss I genuinely don't think that's their primary motive.

I hope Joy and Austin both wanted to share the pictures and didn't feel pressured. They very well may have wanted to share them; it's very normal after any loss to want to share pictures of the one you lost, and these are the only pictures they'll ever have of their daughter.

[Beermeet]

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

 

I find it sad that her Duggar PR grief statements are “keeping sweet” instead of being allowed to say “I’m completely devastated and it’s been traumatic. Pray for us.”

Or, maybe she is saying what she wants to.  Not everyone speaks about their losses how you feel they should.  With my miscarriage and son's diagnosis, I kept it short and sweet when asked. If I was a sharer on social media ( I'm not) I would not insert my deepest feelings. I only got deep with 3 people at the time when all that was fresh.  The people I know on FB that do share these things tend to "keep sweet",  as you put it.  There is a family I know who lost their youngest son yesterday to cancer. Their oldest passed away in a car accident less than 1 yr ago.  They are posting about their children being together again in heaven mostly.  They are trying to comfort themselves this way it seems.  It's a normal thing to do, not a Duggar PR or TLC thing. Unless you work for TLC or know the Duggars personally,  you do not know this. Just stop alreay!  Geez.  

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Beermeet
The family I mentioned are not deep in any kool aid or even heavily religious.

[SassyPants]

53 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I can't get emotional over these knowing their stance on women's reproductive rights. I could see why someone would want these photos privately but knowing how they speak and vote, it just seems calculated. 

I just hope they don’t use any part of this heartbreaking, life altering tragedy to make a buck, or at least not until after much contemplation, professional counseling and a decently long time lapse.  No immediate shilling  of  photos, videos, memorials or any kind of TLC footage. A book highlighting their journey to wholeness after such a tragedy in 5 years time would be acceptable. I know that I harp on this a lot but because the Duggars do not seem to operate in our world or abide by our general standard of principles, I am always hyper concerned about their motives and ultimate goals. Terrible, but true, I don’t trust them. Jim Bob has always struck me as a shady and sleazy opportunist, and we all know that he controls and orchestrates much of what happens in that extended family.

Edited July 5, 2019 by SassyPants

[VelociRapture]

49 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I can't get emotional over these knowing their stance on women's reproductive rights. I could see why someone would want these photos privately but knowing how they speak and vote, it just seems calculated. 

They just suffered a devastating loss. If they choose to use Annabell to further their pro-life agenda in the future then I’ll be happy to call their views out at that point. They haven’t done anything remotely like that so far though. I’m personally willing to offer them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they aren’t doing anything calculated by releasing these photos for now. All they’ve done with these photos is share about their personal experience, as is their right. 

I see your point. I get it completely. But everyone grieves differently and if sharing these photos ends up helping them cope then that’s a good thing. 

8 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Or, maybe she is saying what she wants to.  Not everyone speaks about their losses how you feel they should.  With my miscarriage and son's diagnosis, I kept it short and sweet when asked. If I was a sharer on social media ( I'm not) I would not insert my deepest feelings. I only got deep with 3 people at the time when all that was fresh.  The people I know on FB that do share these things tend to "keep sweet",  as you put it.  There is a family I know who lost their youngest son yesterday to cancer. Their oldest passed away in a car accident less than 1 yr ago.  They are posting about their children being together again in heaven mostly.  They are trying to comfort themselves this way it seems.  It's a normal thing to do, not a Duggar PR or TLC thing. Unless you work for TLC or know the Duggars personally,  you do not know this. Just stop alreay!  Geez.  

 

Just a FYI: the ignore function is a phenomenal thing. I find it especially helpful when using it with posters who are frequently tone-deaf on sensitive topics. I highly recommend it if you feel it’d improve your experience on the site. 

[AliceInFundyland]

On the subject of the ignore feature.

I am not a fan. I (usually) manage to just ignore.

But our rules are so liberal and we are a free policing community, certain people continue to run amok forever. They will forever stay free of censure. So, periodically they need to be called on it.

That's all.

Oh, and we can't always take it into Community Discussions. It just has to happen here because the people who cause the issues won't migrate.

Thank you@Beermeet

I understand your frustrations.

I understand @VelociRapture as well.

It's a pain.

Edited July 5, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[PainfullyAware]

Gosh those photos are so intense. I saw them without knowing what they were at first and it was a bit of a shock (as it seems like such a private life event to me). But this is their grief process and  how they choose to commemorate their loss,  and that's all that matters. There are religious beliefs underlying when an in utero fetus becomes a baby, and they obviously are to one side on that issue, but to me, how you look at it doesn't alter the level of grief the parents feel. They might not agree with me (as they suggested in their earlier post that their belief system helps them to feel more at peace with the loss). In this type of situation I think it's best to let the people affected define find what it means to them.

[Jaedzia]

To all the ladies that have lost a pregnancy, I'm so sorry. I was 17 when I watched my older sister lose her third daughter and last child at five months.  She grieves for that child to this day. She did have a funeral for her, named her, and has a gravestone. I watched her for the last 31 years go to that grave several times a year and lay flowers on it. It reminds me of my grandmother who did the same thing for her two-year-old son who passed away until the day she passed. There was no difference in the grief from what I saw. 

My mother made stupid comments to me about it all. The most being that at least it was not my sister's firstborn or secondborn child. I made the very, very stupid decision to repeat that to my sister. A decision I regret but have forgiven myself for as I was a stupid teen raised in a stupid lite-fundi home and school. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Jaedzia

[TheMustardCardigan]

Even though I am very opposed to the Duggar belief system, I can’t help but feel heartbroken for Joy, especially after seeing these photos. 

I also have to say she looks so brave in these pictures. I don’t know if I could’ve held it together even for a second.