Josiah and Lauren Part 11: The Baby Watch Continues

[bekkah]

Pro-life versus pro-choice is always a tricky matter....

As a Christian, I believe that people in vulnerable positions should be provided for. That means widows, children and women in general. I have a hard time wrapping my head around having abortion because I knew I would be supported throughout my pregnancy and after child birth. I also realize that not everyone has the same option. 

I have had several conversations regarding my beliefs. I respect the current law and realize that it is better to work towards reducing abortions. Also I believe in socialized medicine, subsidized daycare, and WIC. Currently, the USA is failing its citizens in so many ways.

In these conversations, I share what I believe.  I don't believe in premarital sex, living together before marriage and being generally pro-life (see above). What gets me is that people try to change my views and I never try to convince them to believe what I believe.  

I would 100% rather see crisis pregnancy centers turn into nonprofits to help women throughout their pregnancy by providing resources including healthcare and other types of assistance. 

[habert]

@bekkah I respect that you are honest about your beliefs, and I respect also that you are saying these things in a compassionate tone. I truly do. 

But I, and many other women, do not think it’s a “tricky matter.” I believe full stop a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy at any point for any reason. This is because she has full autonomy of her body. 

I also believe, like you, many woman would not choose abortions given resources and community to help her care for her child and also live her life as a full body woman with her own value and worth, and I would love to live in a world where any woman who is accidentally pregnant is not in crisis. However, even in a world where women were not subjected to the misogyny that makes pregnancy a crisis for them, I would still believe these women could abort any time for any reason. 

[viii]

I don't know where I stand on the issue. Everyone raises really good points, and I'm really conflicted. The Christian side of me wants to state that every life has a right, and life begins at conception, but the logical side of me understands it's not that black and white, and there are so many conditions. I know a lot of pro-life people push the agenda that every abortion is a whimsical act, that every woman goes out and has loads of sex and uses abortion as birth control. I know that's not true. I don't think any woman is like WOOO abortion! I think it's a painful and awful experience they have to endure. And sometimes it's a medical necessary - I know prolife equates baby's life with mom's life, but if mom has two young kids at home already, then to me I place more value on mom's life. And then I feel awful for placing value on people's lives. 

I don't know. This subject sucks to think about.

[bekkah]

6 minutes ago, habert said:

@bekkah I respect that you are honest about your beliefs, and I respect also that you are saying these things in a compassionate tone. I truly do. 

But I, and many other women, do not think it’s a “tricky matter.” I believe full stop a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy at any point for any reason. This is because she has full autonomy of her body. 

I also believe, like you, many woman would not choose abortions given resources and community to help her care for her child and also live her life as a full body woman with her own value and worth, and I would love to live in a world where any woman who is accidentally pregnant is not in crisis. However, even in a world where women were not subjected to the misogyny that makes pregnancy a crisis for them, I would still believe these women could abort any time for any reason. 

I do 100% respect your beliefs and I respect the law of this land currently. 

Out of curiosity, do you believe abortions should be allowed till the last day of pregnancy? Because how I read your comment, you say at anytime for a woman. When do we consider the fetus as human? At this point in history, we are saving babies born at 24 weeks which is the second trimester. I see many ethical quandaries about at anytime and I'm not talking about that there is no viability or genetic abnormalities incompatible with life  of the fetus in later stage terminations. 

I also have watched "Reversing Roe" on Netflix. I personally am physically uncomfortable with watching an abortion being done even on TV which they do show on Netflix. At the same time, I was disgusted with the people protesting at the clinics because that's not the place to change someone's attitudes towards abortion. I wish we would see the prolife people who are doing the work to prevent and reduce abortions.  

Bit of background on me: I was a biology major in college and I opted out of one of my major's classes because of creating a useless experiment with chicken embryos. I don't disagree with using animals for testing but not for a learning purposes.   I really had to think about my views pretty young. 

[AussieKrissy]

Termination is a tricky subject for me, Tricky in that I so many conflicting views.

I was a teen pregnancy, my biological mother's second. 17 with  a toddler a newborn, a shit husband and an emerging drug problem. 

As I got older and understood pregnancy and termination, I came to the understanding that if my biological mother had of been my child or my friend, I would have advised and or supported a termination on either or both pregnancies. I just killed me and or my brother.

As a theoretical friend or parent of this vulnerable young women, I would have wanted her to "get her life together" before bringing children into it.

She never did. Luckily she lost custody of me. I got to grow up pretty well. Not all kids in my situation do....

My Mother (not biological) was forced to have a backyard abortion as there was no other option, it was horrific and not something she or I would wish upon anyone. I do not want abortion to become banned or illegal because of this. 

Part of my job at one time was to escort women to have terminations. I had to do this twice in my time. Both times, lead to me having horrific nightmares about abortion because of my conflicting beliefs. I had to go to my boss and tell her, I just would not be able to do it anymore because it was screwing with me. 

I have had a child, initial testing came back high risk for downs etc, I had further testing to confirm, to know if termination would become a possibility for me. Test came back fine. I did not have to cross that proverbial bridge, thank Rufus. I want another one part of my major hesitation is my age increasing my risk of genetic defects.  I would rather not have to put myself in the position where I may have to choose termination. 

Can I accept and condone terminating a late term (completely compatible) with life baby, due to the mother needing to have complete 'autonomy'? No I can not. I get that she should be able to, and that it is her right too. I just can not, it breaks my heart for the baby and in part the mother. I guess as the baby gets closer to be being born for me it becomes about the baby and not the mother. Some people may think that it is wrong, but I am wise enough to know that abortion is a hot, controversial topic not everyone will agree. 

I hate that fundies believe that such a gut wrenching topic is black and white.

 

 

[Iamtheway]

Even though I am as heathen as they come and that I really don’t want another child I don’t think I could have an abortion. 

I feel bad for the four embryos that became medical waste when we didn’t want to use them. Because I know that they all had the potential to be an amazing kid. I’ve seen what those genes can produce and it is good.

But I still think every woman should have the right to her own body and therefore I will always be pro-choice. I have been pregnant and given birth and I’m pretty sure that if someone on the outside caused me all that hardship and pain against my will I could have them put in jail. Even if it was my own child.

If people were actually pro-life and didn’t just want to control women here are some other things they should work on: car- and roadsafety, banning cigarettes, curing cancer, gunsafety, stopping poverty, promoting healthy eating, ending war ...

They should also be for a national organ donor list where you could force anyone to donate blood or bone marrow or give up their kidney if someone else needs it. You can live with one kidney and the surgery isn’t much worse then a c-section. Why is no one working on that? It would save many lives. Even the lives of small innocent children. I’m pretty sure basically no one would be for such a law if it was suggested though. Why? Why is life only sacred if it’s unborn and dependent on a woman’s body?

If god wanted all embryos to live he should have thought out a better delivery system. Or he could just make sure there are no unwanted pregnancies. He’s supposed to be omnipotent after all. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

You can live with one kidney and the surgery isn’t much worse then a c-section.

It is much worse than a c-section.  

I'm not refering to anything emotional or the abortion debate, but it's a false equivalence to compare the two.  The recovery, etc. is much different and there is also the risk of your own health/life later on if your remaining kidney goes bad.

[Dandruff]

15 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Can I accept and condone terminating a late term (completely compatible) with life baby, due to the mother needing to have complete 'autonomy'? No I can not. I get that she should be able to, and that it is her right too.

I feel the same way.  Barring late-term mitigating circumstances (e.g., medical), I believe an early abortion is much better than a late-term one, and birth control is much better than an abortion.  

I knew a couple many years ago who couldn't agree on who would use the BC so they didn't use any.  She worked in the medical field and there was no issue of lack of access to BC.  Since they weren't married (yet) they didn't want children, and since they weren't using BC she got pregnant.  Two or three times, and she aborted each time.  It disgusted me then and still disgusts me now.

[SapphireSlytherin]

The thing is - whether a woman has an abortion or not is NONE OF ANYONE'S GODDAMN BUSINESS. It's the woman's business. PERIOD. FULL STOP. END OF STATEMENT.

 

[AussieKrissy]

3 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I feel the same way.  Barring late-term mitigating circumstances (e.g., medical), I believe an early abortion is much better than a late-term one, and birth control is much better than an abortion.  

I knew a couple many years ago who couldn't agree on who would use the BC so they didn't use any.  She worked in the medical field and there was no issue of lack of access to BC.  Since they weren't married (yet) they didn't want children, and since they weren't using BC she got pregnant.  Two or three times, and she aborted each time.  It disgusted me then and still disgusts me now.

Oh yeah that would disgust me too. 

I would judge the hell out of them and think something was totally wrong with their souls and morals. 

Shit like that gives the fundies ammo to use to promote their agenda. They find these heathen's stories and use them as the rule rather than the exception. 

 

[Iamtheway]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It is much worse than a c-section.  

I'm not refering to anything emotional or the abortion debate, but it's a false equivalence to compare the two.  The recovery, etc. is much different and there is also the risk of your own health/life later on if your remaining kidney goes bad.

I’m not an expert in any way buy here are some numbers about recovery: 

C-section: 3-5 days in hospital, 6 weeks recovery. (Source: https://www.pregnancybirthbaby.org.au/recovery-after-a-caesarean)

Donate kidney: 2 days in hospital, 4-6 weeks recovery. (Source: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/transplant/living_donors/expect.html)

Yes, you risk having your one kidney fail if you donate. But pregnancy also comes with lots of risks. After a c-section one risk is having your uterus rupture. And the pro-lifers we talk about here don’t see a risk to the womans life as a reason to abort so why should a risk to the doner’s life be more important?

I don’t actually think anyone should be forced to donate their kidney. But I also don’t think anyone should be forced to go through a pregnancy and a birth. Both things would give life to someone else though. 

[sixcatatty]

On 10/28/2018 at 7:35 PM, Irishy said:

I’m not sure what people mean by abortion being a black and white issue. For me it kind of is. There are no shades of grey for me. I will always support a woman’s right to choose whether or not she wants to be pregnant. However that pregnancy was conceived. Whatever gestation. I trust women to make the right choices for themselves. Women do not abort late term pregnancies for the heck of it. It should always be between a woman and her doctor and it’s nobody else’s damn business.

I'm a Kentuckian. Our Governor, Tea Party Matt Bevin, is not going to rest until he gets rid of the last abortion clinic in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Hard enough for a good many women to get to Louisville, let alone anything else.

I am and always will be pro-choice but if I had my druthers, abortion would be safe, legal and rare because we had a good safety net for women.

I have had five miscarriages--my body simply will not carry a child to term. My body has robbed my husband of being a father. My body has robbed me of watching him be a father and mothering his children. That being said, I have been in the position of needing to consider having an abortion.

In order to live, for 13 months, I injected Methotrexate, a drug which has a black box warning that if the person taking MTX is female, she must not become pregnant while taking it or for two  years afterward. If the person is male, the black box warns him NOT to impregnate a partner while he takes it or for two years afterward. The box also warns that it's not IF the resulting child will have birth defects, it's whether they will be merely gawdawful and painful or incompatible with life.

We took multiple precautions while I injected MTX, but even so, I knew that if I became pregnant, the most loving thing I could do would be to abort that child. In making that decision, I compromised my dearest desire to see my husband be a father for the love of a non-existent child. I would make the same decision again.

The Duggars would say I don't have enough faith. I have plenty of faith. I also have been gifted with a brain that God expects me to use. I don't believe my decision compromised that faith at all. If it did, then I--and no one else--will be the one answering for it.

[Iamtheway]

While looking at statistics about c-sections this came up. How random is that? And do you think Jill and Ofjill knows about this?

[3SecondSideHugger]

2 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I feel the same way.  Barring late-term mitigating circumstances (e.g., medical), I believe an early abortion is much better than a late-term one, and birth control is much better than an abortion.  

I knew a couple many years ago who couldn't agree on who would use the BC so they didn't use any.  She worked in the medical field and there was no issue of lack of access to BC.  Since they weren't married (yet) they didn't want children, and since they weren't using BC she got pregnant.  Two or three times, and she aborted each time.  It disgusted me then and still disgusts me now.

I just don’t understand people like that.. what do you think will happen when you’re not using anything??? I also have a coworker (a doctor!!) who says all 3 of her kids were accidents and unplanned. Wtf??

 

Working daily with the special needs population has really changed my views on BC and abortion. One horrific example- we had a nonverbal teenager with Down Syndrome (severe case). Her grandparents had custody and claimed they were Catholic and did not believe in birth control so refused to give her the shots, which her doctor and medical team recommended. Every month for a few days when she came to school, staff had to give her showers because her period blood would soak so heavily through her clothes and she would be filthy underneath since she did not have the cognitive ability to handle that. Made me sick. Forget your “religion”, THAT is neglectful.

 

I could go on for a long time about abortion rights, but it is a woman’s choice and whether you agree or not, they’re going to happen. Let them happen safely.

[Sky with diamonds]

In my early teens for about a year, I was pro life. When I learned more about the issue/s surrounding abortion, I ended up as pro choice. 

[grandmadugger]

On 10/31/2018 at 5:22 PM, ati_escapee said:

Oops, I wasn't even thinking about that! No, I think they moved in before we moved here. I know they live fairly far from the rest of the family, at least far for Duggar's. Not Jinger-far, but not close. I've never been over there. I run my business out of Branson and I saw the Duggar's plenty of times when I lived there. I don't know if they still visit Branson a lot, but they used to. Not interested in driving by their houses now, lol. 

I like NWA so far! My kids go to a great school, so I am happy about that. I am having to drive quite a bit for work, so that's a pain. Otherwise, I can't complain. I like living close to Whole Foods, I haven't lived close to one since I lived in CA and that's been years ago.

 I just wanted to say hi to another former Bransonite. 

[Shadoewolf]

I've talked about this before, my childhood best friend who I think has had an upwards of 10+ abortions. Yup at that point I judge. There's oops and there's careless. She knows about birth control, she just didn't want to use it and the loser fathers sure don't. She has 5 kids with 4 different dads. It broke my heart when I was fighting infertility, suffering miscarriage after miscarriage and she could have an abortion like it was nothing. 

I considered an early abortion a few years ago. I have very high risk pregnancies to begin with because of clotting problems, advanced age, a history of having preemies, and things had been kinda rough with Hubby at the time. I cried for HOURS on the phone with my best friend before I even told Hubby. We lived in a very small town in Arkansas, the nearest clinic to do it was 3 hours away in Fayetteville, and it would be $900 for the chemical procedure. We decided against it for cost reasons. Thankfully Mother Nature knew better and after emergency surgery I had my tubes tied. But honestly, while it was a hard choice and we talked about it a lot, I was SO glad I had the choice if I wanted to proceed. To be forced to put my life at risk, to risk that child's life, and the precarious nature of Hubby and I at the time? Just no. 

I don't like the idea of late term just for the sake of doing it. Medical issues and whatnot is different but past a certain point, then adoption needs to be the correct path. Just me though.

[artdecades]

Abortion is birth control. It controls birth. It's not contraception.

[crancraz]

Typically, people who have late term abortions are because of severe fetal abnormalities that are incompatible with life. They are complicated procedures that cost thousands of dollars and require travel outside of most states. Generally speaking, women are not having late term abortions because of unplanned pregnancy. And until one has been in the position of dealing decisions around a pregnancy and baby wth severe abnormalities, it is truly impossible to say what you would do. Convictions often change when one finds oneself on the other side of the equation. 

I myself have had two second trimesters abortion procedures for interauterine fetal demise that occurred at 16 and 20 weeks of pregnancy exactly a year apart. Even this “early” in pregnancy, finding a provider was difficult since most OB/GYNS aren’t skilled in D&Es that far along. Even with insurance coverage, we paid over $1K. I will say this. The loss of my very wanted babies was devastating and heartbreaking. We still don’t know why they died. But having skilled physicians who could safely do the D&E procedure that late in pregnancy was challenging and it should not have been. 

If we eliminate abortions all together, then women like me with complicated obstetrical histories who cannot (or do not want to) give birth to a necrotic fetus could very well end up in dangerous situations with unskilled doctors. This is another, undiscussed risk of eliminating abortion. There is no training for physicians. 

Lastly, I will say, I don’t know what I would do if something was terminally wrong with a pregnancy. Losing a baby at 4 and 5 months of pregnancy was hard enough and the weight of my grief is enormous. Carrying a baby to full term to know that it will die in your arms is a pain I cannot fathom, despite my own loss. 

[Godly grifting]

We recently had a family member have a late abortion at 5 1/2 months. As a family we fully supported and comforted her. No body judged her choice, she was suffering enough and probably will be for some time. I'm sure she will never fully get over it. 

[DooDahDame]

To listen to the “choice” supporters, the providers perform these procedures without a care in the world. That is patently wrong! I knew a doctor who provided services to patients from 10 (yes 10) years old to those at the end of their childbearing years. It was done in a sterile, surgical center but not in a sterile (emotional) setting. The patients were counseled by social workers, a psychologist, and the doctor. There were also chaplains there (if desired), handholders (during provedures) and even huggers (if someone needed that kind of support). Every girl or woman was treated with honesty, dignity, and compassion and as the valued person she was. In many circumstances he did not charge for his services. On the anniversary of Roe v. Wade there was no charge for early termination. 

I’m sorry if that sounded kind of clinical but pro-choice is a stand I take.

As for the doctor, he is missed!

[SweetJuly]

I have a question regarding 'choice' - should anyone's feelings despite those of the pregnant woman been taken into account? 

As I have mentioned previously, I had a first-trimester abortion many years ago. It was not painful or traumatic, it was the right decision for me at the time and I don't regret it. 

However, when I found out I was pregnant, I discussed this with my boyfriend (not my husband now) I wanted his honest opinion - how did he feel about the pregnancy? did he feel ready and that we could manage given that we both hadn't finished our studies, had no own income yet? did he think we could make it work even though we had only been together a short time? etc

He did not say much beyond that he supported my decision and offering to take a job in the industry rather than continuing in academia as he had wanted to so that he could support us all. 

When we separated about a year later, he told me that he had been heartbroken by my decision and had cried himself to sleep several times before the termination. His reasoning for not telling me was that he didn't want to influence me. 

Now I'm torn on this. I agree there should be no pressure on the woman and the final choice should be hers alone, but I do think that if asked at least the father/partner should disclose his full opinion and feelings on the matter. I might have made a different choice had he shared with me that he was happy, wanted to keep the pregnancy and thought we could make it work despite everything. As he didn't speak up, I felt both he and I could not cope, and made my choice based on this. 

[zcccrv]

1 hour ago, SweetJuly said:

I have a question regarding 'choice' - should anyone's feelings despite those of the pregnant woman been taken into account? 

As I have mentioned previously, I had a first-trimester abortion many years ago. It was not painful or traumatic, it was the right decision for me at the time and I don't regret it. 

However, when I found out I was pregnant, I discussed this with my boyfriend (not my husband now) I wanted his honest opinion - how did he feel about the pregnancy? did he feel ready and that we could manage given that we both hadn't finished our studies, had no own income yet? did he think we could make it work even though we had only been together a short time? etc

He did not say much beyond that he supported my decision and offering to take a job in the industry rather than continuing in academia as he had wanted to so that he could support us all. 

When we separated about a year later, he told me that he had been heartbroken by my decision and had cried himself to sleep several times before the termination. His reasoning for not telling me was that he didn't want to influence me. 

Now I'm torn on this. I agree there should be no pressure on the woman and the final choice should be hers alone, but I do think that if asked at least the father/partner should disclose his full opinion and feelings on the matter. I might have made a different choice had he shared with me that he was happy, wanted to keep the pregnancy and thought we could make it work despite everything. As he didn't speak up, I felt both he and I could not cope, and made my choice based on this. 

I think that pressure SHOULD be put on a woman. It is ultimately the woman's choice but not because of ethics but because there is no way around it. The fetus is inside her body and no one can physically force a decision onto her body. But, I think that in any other aspect the father should have as much say as the mother does. If, for example, a surrogate is used to carry a child of a couple- is it ok for partner #1 to change his/her mind and instruct the surrogate to terminate despite the wishes of partner #2? I don't think that's right. I'm not familiar with the legalities of what a contract with a surrogate entails but my point is- in this situation where neither of the parents-to-be is physically carrying the child- they are on completely equal footing and any decision should come from both of them. I think it's sad that your boyfriend didn't want to speak up about his thoughts.

[seraaa]

2 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

I have a question regarding 'choice' - should anyone's feelings despite those of the pregnant woman been taken into account? 

As I have mentioned previously, I had a first-trimester abortion many years ago. It was not painful or traumatic, it was the right decision for me at the time and I don't regret it. 

However, when I found out I was pregnant, I discussed this with my boyfriend (not my husband now) I wanted his honest opinion - how did he feel about the pregnancy? did he feel ready and that we could manage given that we both hadn't finished our studies, had no own income yet? did he think we could make it work even though we had only been together a short time? etc

He did not say much beyond that he supported my decision and offering to take a job in the industry rather than continuing in academia as he had wanted to so that he could support us all. 

When we separated about a year later, he told me that he had been heartbroken by my decision and had cried himself to sleep several times before the termination. His reasoning for not telling me was that he didn't want to influence me. 

Now I'm torn on this. I agree there should be no pressure on the woman and the final choice should be hers alone, but I do think that if asked at least the father/partner should disclose his full opinion and feelings on the matter. I might have made a different choice had he shared with me that he was happy, wanted to keep the pregnancy and thought we could make it work despite everything. As he didn't speak up, I felt both he and I could not cope, and made my choice based on this. 

I feel like we can only make the decision based on the information available to us at the time, and that entails everyone being honest about how they feel. You did your best at the time, and that is all any of us can do.

(In general terms, I feel - at this point in time - that if the mother and the father disagrees, the mother should make the final call because she is the one who has to have the operation/carry the child to term.

But in the ideal scenario, that conversation between the parents would take place every time, where possible. 

If the relationship were abusive, then I wouldn't hold it against the mother for not consulting the father at all, to be honest. But in ordinary, loving relationships I think the discussion is something that is good.)

 

[prayawaythefundie]

10 hours ago, sixcatatty said:

if I had my druthers, abortion would be safe, legal and rare 

Amen. Three words that should describe the state of abortion in today‘s society. 

What fundies don‘t get is that banning abortion will not lead to less abortions. It will cause more women to die trying. There will always be women with a medical, psychological or socioeconomic NEED for an abortion. It is a fundamental task of a humane society to both enable a safe termination in those cases and at the same time reduce the number of said cases through offering any and all possible support (economical safety net, psychological help etc.). And yet that society will have to accept that there will always be women who need an abortion for whatever reason.