Josiah and Lauren Part 11: The Baby Watch Continues

[Godly grifting]

3 hours ago, DooDahDame said:

To listen to the “choice” supporters, the providers perform these procedures without a care in the world. That is patently wrong! I knew a doctor who provided services to patients from 10 (yes 10) years old to those at the end of their childbearing years. It was done in a sterile, surgical center but not in a sterile (emotional) setting. The patients were counseled by social workers, a psychologist, and the doctor. There were also chaplains there (if desired), handholders (during provedures) and even huggers (if someone needed that kind of support). Every girl or woman was treated with honesty, dignity, and compassion and as the valued person she was. In many circumstances he did not charge for his services. On the anniversary of Roe v. Wade there was no charge for early termination. 

I’m sorry if that sounded kind of clinical but pro-choice is a stand I take.

As for the doctor, he is missed!

What a great doctor.

My relative her doctor was just wonderful, one day you are preparing for your baby and then get diagnosed with the worst news. A lot of terminated babies were very much loved and wanted, they are grieved and missed. 

[habert]

Yes, I believe a woman can choose at any point in gestation. I am unequivocally pro-choice. I do not care or see issue with how many abortions a woman has. I think any conditions on abortion makes the argument pro-forced birth.

[JordynDarby5]

I'm definitely pro-choice I think women should have legal and safe access to abortions. I've been pro-choice since my teens. I don't think any woman should have to go through a pregnancy that she doesn't want to or can't go through. There are many reasons women chose abortion usually based on health or circumstances. Not everyone has the best of either and that maybe the right decision for her. I refused to believe God wouldn't understand having to make a hard decision.  I also can't say I'd never chose abortion. It would depend on the circumstances.  

[ati_escapee]

8 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

 I just wanted to say hi to another former Bransonite. 

Hey!! I still run my business out of Branson, so I'm there all the time!

[Iamtheway]

6 hours ago, zcccrv said:

I think that pressure SHOULD be put on a woman. It is ultimately the woman's choice but not because of ethics but because there is no way around it. The fetus is inside her body and no one can physically force a decision onto her body. But, I think that in any other aspect the father should have as much say as the mother does. If, for example, a surrogate is used to carry a child of a couple- is it ok for partner #1 to change his/her mind and instruct the surrogate to terminate despite the wishes of partner #2? I don't think that's right. I'm not familiar with the legalities of what a contract with a surrogate entails but my point is- in this situation where neither of the parents-to-be is physically carrying the child- they are on completely equal footing and any decision should come from both of them. I think it's sad that your boyfriend didn't want to speak up about his thoughts.

But this is what pro-lifers want though. They want to make the decision for the woman. 

It would be great if the parents could have equal say and once the baby is born I think they absolutely should. But before that the choice have to be the woman’s and only the woman’s. Because what is the option? Shuld a man be able to force a woman to keep a pregnancy? What if he’s abbusive? What if he has no intention at all to be a part of the child’s life but just want let her abort? And if the man has a say, can he also force her to abort? Against her will?

In a loving, or even just civil, relationship this obviously isn’t a problem. But sadly lots of relationships are not like that. 

[SamiKatz]

5 hours ago, habert said:

Yes, I believe a woman can choose at any point in gestation. I am unequivocally pro-choice. I do not care or see issue with how many abortions a woman has. I think any conditions on abortion makes the argument pro-forced birth.

An abortion is a medical procure, and I would think involves general anesthetic .  It's just not healthy for anyone to go through too many surgical procedures, especially if not absolutely necessary.  There are far easier and safer ways to prevent a pregnancy.  

[artdecades]

Just now, SamiKatz said:

An abortion is a medical procure, and I would think involves general anesthetic .  It's just not healthy for anyone to go through too many surgical procedures, especially if not absolutely necessary.  There are far easier and safer ways to prevent a pregnancy.  

There are different kinds of abortion. A medical abortion just requires pills. Not all abortions are surgical.

Even if abortion always required general anesthetic and surgery, why does it matter to you how a woman decides to deal with her own body. No one talks about banning plastic surgery because it's not medically necessary.

Again, abortion isn't birth control. It's the only way to end a pregnancy that has already started. Yes, there are ways to prevent pregnancy, but if you are already pregnant and don't want to be, abortion is the only option and it should be available.

[SamiKatz]

Just now, artdecades said:

There are different kinds of abortion. A medical abortion just requires pills. Not all abortions are surgical.

Even if abortion always required general anesthetic and surgery, why does it matter to you how a woman decides to deal with her own body. No one talks about banning plastic surgery because it's not medically necessary.

Again, abortion isn't birth control. It's the only way to end a pregnancy that has already started. Yes, there are ways to prevent pregnancy, but if you are already pregnant and don't want to be, abortion is the only option and it should be available.

I didn't say anything about how a woman decides to deal with her own body.  I actually had an abortion many years ago, a decision I did regret having to make at the time but am at peace with having made. I've also had a breast reduction - a medically unnecessary surgery. I know someone who did take pills to end a pregnancy and it was a very rough process as well. 

My point was - abortion is a medical procedure and all medical procedures have some element of danger to them, and that it is healthier to prevent a pregnancy, than to terminate it.  I believe strongly that women should have easy, affordable access to birth control, as well as the ability to terminate if they choose to do so.

 

[Joyfully Available]

Reading comments on this debate is so difficult for me. I can understand the argument from both sides to a certain extent. I've always been gung ho "women's choice and no one else's business"! Then I had a baby... and now I have a very hard time wrapping my head around late term abortion (unless absolutely necessary to save the mother's life) or aborting because of inconvenience, single status, lack of funds, etc. Then I look at the other side of things and I would never force motherhood on someone who wasn't 100% committed. It is a hard job. It's expensive, time consuming and even soul sucking at times but if motherhood is what you want it can be an amazing experience. I also try to keep in mind that I shouldn't project my personal experience as a mother or love for my own baby on someone else's situation.

There are so many factors that come into play for me when I consider this issue. I think about cases of rape and incest and I absolutely want to those women to have a choice, a safe choice! I've recently read terrible child abuse cases and wonder if sometimes those children wish they had never been born rather than suffer in a living hell. Then on the other hand I think about women like the poster above mentioned... two or three abortions just for the heck of it because she was too lazy or stupid to use birth control so she resorted to multiple abortions to fix her "problems". Disgusting!

I frequently feel like I need more facts or more statistics. Real statistics. Information that hasn't been skewed. How many women really get abortions "just for the heck of it"? Late term abortions? How common are they? I also think about all the amazing things the medical community can do for premature babies these days. Someone above asked at what point do we consider viability? It does make me question more, a whole lot more. I also think about the people who push adoption and idyllically it solves everything but we all know life doesn't work like that.  

I realize I just rattled off a string of thoughts but I'm really struggling with this issue. It's almost election time and abortion related amendments are on our local ballot. I want us to have our rights but there are some aspects I can't get behind on this issue. I hate that is has to be all or nothing sometimes.

[artdecades]

2 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

I didn't say anything about how a woman decides to deal with her own body.  I actually had an abortion many years ago, a decision I did regret having to make at the time but am at peace with having made. I've also had a breast reduction - a medically unnecessary surgery. I know someone who did take pills to end a pregnancy and it was a very rough process as well. 

My point was - abortion is a medical procedure and all medical procedures have some element of danger to them, and that it is healthier to prevent a pregnancy, than to terminate it.  I believe strongly that women should have easy, affordable access to birth control, as well as the ability to terminate if they choose to do so.

 

I was commenting on the thread that  @habert started, saying they do not care how many abortions a woman has. You replied saying many abortions are bad because they are surgical procedures. My comment was a reply to that. 

Yes, there are ways to prevent pregnancy, but if a pregnancy has already happened, talking about contraceptives is beside the point. The only option to end the the pregnancy is to have an abortion or give birth. If a woman wants to end a pregnancy, I don't care how many times she does it. Nor do I care if it is medically necessary procedure. The choice to have a procedure is the woman and the woman's alone.

[SamiKatz]

1 minute ago, artdecades said:

I was commenting on the thread that  @habert started, saying they do not care how many abortions a woman has. You replied saying many abortions are bad because they are surgical procedures. My comment was a reply to that. 

Yes, there are ways to prevent pregnancy, but if a pregnancy has already happened, talking about contraceptives is beside the point. The only option to end the the pregnancy is to have an abortion or give birth. If a woman wants to end a pregnancy, I don't care how many times she does it. Nor do I care if it is medically necessary procedure. The choice to have a procedure is the woman and the woman's alone.

I was commenting on that thread to say there are medical drawbacks to having multiple abortions, which is true, as it would be for having multiple medical procedures for any reason.  I have a friend whose daughter died in August after having an absolutely standard medical procedure.  

I did not at any time say it was not a woman's choice how, why or how often she decides what is appropriate for her body.

I don't argue on internet groups so I will bow out of this conversation.

 

[Meggo]

2 minutes ago, Joyfully Available said:

Reading comments on this debate is so difficult for me. I can understand the argument from both sides to a certain extent. I've always been gung ho "women's choice and no one else's business"! Then I had a baby... and now I have a very hard time wrapping my head around late term abortion (unless absolutely necessary to save the mother's life) or aborting because of inconvenience, single status, lack of funds, etc. Then I look at the other side of things and I would never force motherhood on someone who wasn't 100% committed. It is a hard job. It's expensive, time consuming and even soul sucking at times but if motherhood is what you want it can be an amazing experience. I also try to keep in mind that I shouldn't project my personal experience as a mother or love for my own baby on someone else's situation.

There are so many factors that come into play for me when I consider this issue. I think about cases of rape and incest and I absolutely want to those women to have a choice, a safe choice! I've recently read terrible child abuse cases and wonder if sometimes those children wish they had never been born rather than suffer in a living hell. Then on the other hand I think about women like the poster above mentioned... two or three abortions just for the heck of it because she was too lazy or stupid to use birth control so she resorted to multiple abortions to fix her "problems". Disgusting!

I frequently feel like I need more facts or more statistics. Real statistics. Information that hasn't been skewed. How many women really get abortions "just for the heck of it"? Late term abortions? How common are they? I also think about all the amazing things the medical community can do for premature babies these days. Someone above asked at what point do we consider viability? It does make me question more, a whole lot more. I also think about the people who push adoption and idyllically it solves everything but we all know life doesn't work like that.  

I realize I just rattled off a string of thoughts but I'm really struggling with this issue. It's almost election time and abortion related amendments are on our local ballot. I want us to have our rights but there are some aspects I can't get behind on this issue. I hate that is has to be all or nothing sometimes.

My belief is this. I struggle with a lot of similar things - going back and forth. I'm an adoptive mom so I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle. I'm a mom specifically because someone did NOT get an abortion. (although - truthfully - she didn't know she was pregnant till too late to terminate anyway). If I got pregnant, it would be a damn miracle and even now at my "advanced maternal age" - I don't know if I would be able to abort. 

BUT. There are a million scenarios someone can give you for why abortion is evil. And a million scenarios of why it's NOT evil and is, in fact, needed. 

Because I cannot sit in judgement on every scenario - I need to assume that women and girls know what they're doing. That they have thought about it and decided to abort or not to abort based on their own circumstances. There will always be people who have 8-10 abortions because they couldn't decide on birth control (seriously people?? pick ALL of them if you can't decide) and there will always be people who decide to give birth who really have no business trying to keep a chia pet alive - let alone a baby. And that is okay. I can't know everyone's mind. 
And banning abortions does not mean they don't happen. I lived in Ireland in the mid90s - where it WAS illegal- and my roommate travelled to England for an abortion. Had she been able to go somewhere locally - she might have had it done sooner. It would have been cheaper, she would have been safer (couldn't exactly have complications from an abortion and go to the local clinic at home where it was illegal to have one). 
So I will continue to fight for safe abortions to be easily accessible. I will continue to fight for affordable, accessible and SAFE birth control. And I will continue to fight for a government that also takes care of citizens after they are born. Because I cannot be everywhere. 

Does my heart break for women who are in that position? Absolutely. Does it also break for the people who want to be parents who could adopt? Sure. But... the alternative is worse. 

[Dandruff]

8 hours ago, zcccrv said:

I think it's sad that your boyfriend didn't want to speak up about his thoughts.

I agree, though it sounds like the boyfriend was well-intentioned.  I'm thinking that he had no idea how it would affect him later.

[Rachel333]

I don't judge women for how many abortions they get, and I hate the narrative that abortion is okay as long as you  have a really good reason for it, feel bad about it, and only get one abortion. Why do so many conversations about abortion even from ostensibly pro-choice people have to turn so quickly into judgmental comments about women perceived as doing abortion wrong? A lot of women do find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy more than once in their lives. This piece briefly goes over some of the characteristics of women who have multiple abortions, and they include economic disadvantage and domestic violence. Unfortunately, however, the stigma against getting more than one abortion is intense even among those who hold pro-choice views.

[zcccrv]

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

But this is what pro-lifers want though. They want to make the decision for the woman. 

It would be great if the parents could have equal say and once the baby is born I think they absolutely should. But before that the choice have to be the woman’s and only the woman’s. Because what is the option? Shuld a man be able to force a woman to keep a pregnancy? What if he’s abbusive? What if he has no intention at all to be a part of the child’s life but just want let her abort? And if the man has a say, can he also force her to abort? Against her will?

In a loving, or even just civil, relationship this obviously isn’t a problem. But sadly lots of relationships are not like that. 

Of course I agree and am aware that a not so small portion of the western society wants to physically force women not to have abortions. I am pro-choice.

Just wanted to point out that, apart from the physical aspect- I think fathers-to-be should be vocal about their wishes and not feel pressured to keep quiet because it's already a tough decision without their input or because it's ultimately up to the pregnant woman.

[Rachel333]

I don't think any opinion ultimately matters except that of the pregnant woman. If she wants the input of the man who got her pregnant then that's great, and I'm sure for a lot of women it is important to know how the man feels about it, but if a man has a different opinion than a woman on what she should do with her body then I don't particularly care. It's her decision.

[cascarones]

As an unwed woman in her first trimester of an unexpected pregnancy I'll weigh in.

It's personal and that's the crux of it all. How involved are we supposed to be in other people's religious soul and body business? 

Theologically from a Christian perspective, we were given guidelines AND free will.  Banning abortions haven't stopped them and won't, so at a base level pro choice is the logical status quo. Do I wish it was different, that we were made in a way that life always found a way when it was the right time? Absolutely, we all do, but I also think professionals who have training for the various situations are vitally necessary. They are not reserved for arbitrary definitions of trauma or life and I don't think they ever should be.

Reality is messy and tricky. Religions have different definitions of sin, different views on it being equal or stratified, different views on forgiveness of both the divine and peer kind. Different views on body rights, I'm getting to share one right now with confetti

Do I also wish I didn't just mow down migrating monarch butterflies while driving? Yes, because it made me cry that they didn't make it to Mexico for the winter. 

[Rachel333]

8 hours ago, zcccrv said:

If, for example, a surrogate is used to carry a child of a couple- is it ok for partner #1 to change his/her mind and instruct the surrogate to terminate despite the wishes of partner #2? I don't think that's right. I'm not familiar with the legalities of what a contract with a surrogate entails but my point is- in this situation where neither of the parents-to-be is physically carrying the child- they are on completely equal footing and any decision should come from both of them.

Usually they do put those situations in the contract. I notice though that you say that the decision about what happens to a woman's body should come from two people who are not that woman, and you don't even mention how the woman who is actually pregnant feels. That's one of the things that make me most uncomfortable about surrogacy. Even in that situation I think the pregnant woman's opinion on what happens to her body is what matters most, which is why surrogacy can be very ethically complicated.

(And by the way, in that situation I do agree that the potential father's opinions matter as much as the potential mother's opinions as neither one of them is pregnant, which also makes it pretty irrelevant to the typical abortion situation.)

[kmachete14]

pet peeve is when someone says they think abortion is wrong unless someone was raped or is underage or something. what's the difference really? if you think it's a baby in there, and you think abortion is killing it, then even the babies of 13 year olds and victims of rape have the right to life. otherwise you are literally withholding abortion and bringing a life into the world just for the sake of punishing someone for accidentally getting pregnant.  

make up your mind. either abortion is a choice that is ok no matter the circumstance, or it is wrong no matter the circumstance. 

the only "circumstance" I can see a real opposition too would be "late term" (since the baby is viable outside the womb) which I'm pretty sure rarely ever happens anyways. 

[Rachel333]

18 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

pet peeve is when someone says they think abortion is wrong unless someone was raped or is underage or something. what's the difference really? if you think it's a baby in there, and you think abortion is killing it, then even the babies of 13 year olds and victims of rape have the right to life. otherwise you are literally withholding abortion and bringing a life into the world just for the sake of punishing someone for accidentally getting pregnant.  

make up your mind. either abortion is a choice that is ok no matter the circumstance, or it is wrong no matter the circumstance. 

the only "circumstance" I can see a real opposition too would be "late term" (since the baby is viable outside the womb) which I'm pretty sure rarely ever happens anyways. 

I totally agree. When someone says they think abortion is wrong except in cases of rape and incest it shows that they think it matters whether it's the woman's "fault" if she got pregnant or not.

[Joyfully Available]

17 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

pet peeve is when someone says they think abortion is wrong unless someone was raped or is underage or something. what's the difference really? if you think it's a baby in there, and you think abortion is killing it, then even the babies of 13 year olds and victims of rape have the right to life. otherwise you are literally withholding abortion and bringing a life into the world just for the sake of punishing someone for accidentally getting pregnant.  

Big difference for me with these two scenarios: 

The 10 year old that got raped by grandpa had no idea what was happening. At least let her have a choice about the outcome of the rest her life. (If a 10 year olds mind can even understand what’s happening.)

** Yes, that instance really happened right here in my community. The parents forced her to have the baby. 

The 20ish year old woman who willingly had sex multiple times with no form of birth control knowing full well she could become pregnant but decided not go buy a box of condoms , track her cycle or  take her birth control pill. She also knows she doesn’t want a baby but doesn’t care to prevent. 

Personal responsibility is everything. 

However, so many different scenarios in life  & it’s not my place to judge. All that being said, I personally have trouble trying to accept each case the same way. 

You definitely make a good point though. 

[artdecades]

I have that pet peeve too. It is the same logic to me as someone saying they are pro-choice but judging a woman for having multiple abortions.

I don't believe a fetus is a person. Women have abortions before the fetus is viable or if there is life or death complications (I will not address the strawman about abortions until the day of delivery because it doesn't happen). Therefore, I don't see a problem with having an abortion because you were irresponsible with contraceptives or if you have a million. It's all the same to me.

[VelociRapture]

I’ve been pregnant twice now, one early miscarriage and one premature birth. With my second pregnancy I was ridiculously sick the entire first trimester - I mean, violently vomiting at least once every single hour that I was awake. My sister had it even worse with her second pregnancy because her nausea and vomiting lasted her entire pregnancy. Had medication not worked for us then we both (or at least my sister) likely would have ended up being diagnosed with HG. 

And after our babies were born the fun didn’t stop. She wound up on antidepressants due to PPD after having her first and I experienced such horrific anxiety that I suffered panic attacks every single night until my daughter was discharged from NICU. If I’m being completely honest, I still suffer from slightly elevated anxiety and it’s been nearly two years. And that’s not even going into the physical impact that pregnancy and birth can have on a woman's body. 

I adore my daughter. I’d do anything to keep her healthy and safe. I’m currently trying to conceive my second and I assume that I’ll feel the exact same way about that baby when the time comes. That said, I am firmly of the opinion that NO woman should be forced to continue any pregnancy she does not or can not continue carrying for any reason. Becoming a mother only made me more certain of that because I know just how difficult pregnancy, birth, recovery, and parenthood can be. 

To those posters who have shared their experiences with abortion - thank you for your courage in sharing. While I’m sorry for whatever your circumstances were, I’m also glad that you had the option to choose what you felt was best for you (and your family, if you have one.)

As for the late-term argument- the vast majority of abortions occur within the first few weeks of pregnancy. Those that occur later on are almost exclusively due to medical reasons. Like others have said, it’s a straw man argument and only causes more pain to women and couples already suffering the horrendous loss of a very wanted child. 

And @kmachete14 makes a fantastic point. Saying abortion is only ok in certain circumstances is basically saying that women without those circumstances should be punished by being denied the right to choose. Quite frankly, I think that’s bullshit - partly because the man involved won’t be held to the same standard, partly because you’re basically arguing that certain women should be no more than incubators, and partly because it’s incredibly unfair to any child to potentially be born into a situation where they were not wanted. 

If abortion isn’t right for you then that’s fine. But keep your opinions off the law books and keep them away from other people’s bodies. 

ETA: And because you asked, @SweetJuly I think you handled your situation very well. So did your former boyfriend. I personally think the non-pregnant partner should at least get to share their thoughts if the relationship is healthy and loving (all bets are off if it’s abusive.) At the end of the day though, the final decision should always be made by the person who is pregnant. 

[Joyfully Available]

I’m always going to be pro choice because the alternative is so much worse. I try to listen & thoughtfully consider different views & opinions. Sometimes people make points that can make me rethink my values or where I stand but I always come back to choice when I weigh things out. I know “gray area” on this topic is not popular but I’m also human & I can’t help but have personal opinions about different scenarios when I mull them over. 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Joyfully Available said:

The 20ish year old woman who willingly had sex multiple times with no form of birth control knowing full well she could become pregnant but decided not go buy a box of condoms , track her cycle or  take her birth control pill. She also knows she doesn’t want a baby but doesn’t care to prevent. 

Personal responsibility is everything. 

However, so many different scenarios in life  & it’s not my place to judge. All that being said, I personally have trouble trying to accept each case the same way. 

But why does it matter as far as whether a woman can decide what happens to her own body or not? And even if this hypothetical woman is as irresponsible as you judge her to be, pregnancy and a baby also shouldn't be a punishment for being irresponsible!