Josiah and Lauren Part 11: The Baby Watch Continues

[Georgiana]

I will always respect a personal belief that abortion is wrong. However, in order to LEGISLATE that, you MUST provide SECULAR and LEGAL arguments to that point. 

You CANNOT deny other people their right to determine their own medical care because of a personal belief and ESPECIALLY not because of a religious belief. 

If your reason for opposing abortion comes solely from your personal religious beliefs or if you cannot defend your reasons for opposing abortion without citing religious beliefs, then if you seek to oppose abortion on those grounds you are, by default, seeking to legislate and impose your religion onto others. 

I was anti-abortion until my college classmate challenged me. She’s Jewish, her religion does not believe life begins until after birth, and she asked BY WHAT LOGIC she ought to be prevented from seeking an abortion. I never had an answer for her, because there isn’t one. 

Secular Science sees the beginning of life as a process. There can be no argument not religious in nature for life beginning before point of viability, and not all religions agree on this. Birth is a dangerous process, and a person always must have the right to protect their own life as it is THE most basic and fundamental right. No law ought to ever be enacted that forces a person to endanger themselves, so abortion can only be restricted when it is MORE DANGEROUS than delivering the child via other means. Ergo, we land here: Restriction on abortion is only defensible when the fetus is able to survive outside the mother AND the mother’s life is not endangered, in which case all moral objections are necessarily put to rest because the safer option for everyone becomes to simply deliver the child, at which point I humbly assume all pro-lifers will stick to that commitment to life and willingly support the likely immense amount of medical care necessary for the infant thru our tax dollars. 

So there you go. You can’t restrict abortion before the fetus reaches viability because that’s necessarily religious argument that elevates some belief systems over others. After viability, you must still allow a woman to end a pregnancy, but since the child will live, it’s no moral issue. At any time, if a woman’s life is in danger, you must allow her to take whatever steps necessary to preserve her own life. 

[Joyfully Available]

14 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

But why does it matter as far as whether a woman can decide what happens to her own body or not? And even if this hypothetical woman is as irresponsible as you judge her to be, pregnancy and a baby also shouldn't be a punishment for being irresponsible!

Listen, I agree with a lot of what you have say. I just have a hard time stomaching women who have a lot of choices to begin with not making any choices at all & then resorting to abortion when they get pregnant. 

That hypothetical woman... here’s  lookin’ at you college roomie. Too scared to tell her mom she’s having sex & needs the pill, too embarrassed to buy condoms at the grocery store, won’t ask boyfriend to buy condoms but totally ok with the possibility of abortion... and ended up needing one because age 20 wasn’t the right time for her. 

Can’t help but recognize terrifically shitty human beings when I see them. Do they need “punished” with a baby, of course not. 

Like I said in my last post, I can’t help having personal opinions about different scenarios. 

[BernRul]

7 hours ago, Joyfully Available said:

Then I had a baby... and now I have a very hard time wrapping my head around late term abortion (unless absolutely necessary to save the mother's life) or aborting because of inconvenience, single status, lack of funds, etc.

I use to feel the same about late term abortions, until I learned that most late term abortions are done because the baby has some kind of medical issue that will either cause it to die shortly after birth or cause it intense pain. I'm someone who is intensely maternal--I work with kids, I get along with just about every kid I meet, I knew I wanted to be a mother since I was a child--so I always assumed that I could never do that. But then I thought, would I carry a baby to term, then give birth, knowing the baby would suffer and then immediately die? How could I mentally go through the knowledge that I looked like a normal happy pregnant lady to everyone else but was secretly carrying a dying child? How could I allow a child I loved to suffer--wouldn't it be better to give them a quick and peaceful death with minimal suffering? I'm not religious, but I do believe in an afterlife, so I would want my child to peacefully "pass on."

I hope I'm never in that situation. God, it scares me to even think about it. But if I was, I know deep down what choice I'd probably make. So after putting myself in those families' shoes, I realize how important it is that the option is available for those rare situations when it's needed. Late term abortions aren't women being selfish; it's a tragedy. It's the loss of a wanted pregnancy. 

As for lack of funds, I also used to agree, but now it's one of the biggest reasons I am pro-choice. Lack of funds is no small thing. Poor people are still great parents, but putting the stress and pressure of providing on a mother who doesn' t really want to be a mother in the first place is a recipe for an unhappy childhood environment. Depending on the area, it can also lead to a baby destined for a life time in the prison system or addicted to drugs. What I'm saying is choosing to continue a pregnancy when you don't have money is no small sacrifice, and should only be done by women who are committed to it. 

[Georgiana]

7 minutes ago, Joyfully Available said:

Listen, I agree with a lot of what you have say. I just have a hard time stomaching women who have a lot of choices to begin with not making any choices at all & then resorting to abortion when they get pregnant. 

That hypothetical woman... here’s  lookin’ at you college roomie. Too scared to tell her mom she’s having sex & needs the pill, too embarrassed to buy condoms at the grocery store, won’t ask boyfriend to buy condons but totally ok with the possibility of abortion... and ended up needing one because age 20 wasn’t the right time for her. 

Can’t help but recognize terrifically shitty human beings when I see them. Do they need “punished” with a baby, of course not. 

Like I said in my last post, I can’t help having personal opinions about different scenarios. 

So why did you place all the blame on her? Why wasn’t it her BOYFRIEND’s responsibility to ensure that he was ejaculating in a way that wouldn’t result in pregnancy? 

Because 100% of the time, unplanned pregnancies are the result of irresponsible semen dispensation. A woman need not take the pill, she may have as many partners as she wishes, she may cum as many times as she wants, and it’s will still be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for her to get pregnant unless there is an irresponsible penis involved.

And while both parties should excercise responsibility with regards to sex, is it not PRIMARILY the duty of the semen giver to ensure his semen is deposited responsibly? It makes no sense to put that primarily on the woman. That’s all patriarchy. 

While she failed, her failure was secondary. Where is the blame for the MEN responsible for causing these pregnancies? Where are the consequences for THEM?

Why do we still blame women for unwanted pregnancies instead of the MEN who CHOSE to irresponsibly ejaculate? 

[Rachel333]

10 minutes ago, Joyfully Available said:

Listen, I agree with a lot of what you have say. I just have a hard time stomaching women who have a lot of choices to begin with not making any choices at all & then resorting to abortion when they get pregnant. 

That hypothetical woman... here’s  lookin’ at you college roomie. Too scared to tell her mom she’s having sex & needs the pill, too embarrassed to buy condoms at the grocery store, won’t ask boyfriend to buy condoms but totally ok with the possibility of abortion... and ended up needing one because age 20 wasn’t the right time for her. 

Can’t help but recognize terrifically shitty human beings when I see them. Do they need “punished” with a baby, of course not. 

Like I said in my last post, I can’t help having personal opinions about different scenarios. 

Having personal opinions doesn't mean you have to voice judgmental comments, though. Maybe you can't "stomach" some women but why is it necessary to talk about women you think are doing abortion wrong in a conversation about whether women should have the right to choose what happens to their bodies? (And that question isn't solely for you; a lot of people seem to need to add their "I'm pro-choice, but I don't like it when these women get abortions" comments.)

I'm glad your roommate didn't have to go through an unwanted pregnancy. I feel bad for her that years later you're still using her situation as an example of women you judge for getting an abortion.

[JillyO]

11 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I use to feel the same about late term abortions, until I learned that most late term abortions are done because the baby has some kind of medical issue that will either cause it to die shortly after birth or cause it intense pain. 

Me too. I have always been pro choice, but I used to think there needed to be a legal limit (somewhere around 20 or 22 weeks). Until I finally understood that no woman willingly has a late-term abortion. Late-term abortions are always tragedies because a woman had to make the terrible choice to abort a wanted baby, or to carry it to term only to then watch it suffer and die.

In spite of what anti-choicers want us to believe, nobody thinks "cool, I have an unplanned pregnancy, so I'm gonna wait around until I'm 32 weeks pregnant and then I'll have an abortion." Late-term abortions are complicated, potentially dangerous medical procedures; they are extremely hard to get; they are very expensive; and the woman still has to give birth. Nobody does that because they are lazy, or irresponsible, or whatever you may think the reason is for someone to have a late-term abortion. Women only do this because they want to spare their beloved child from suffering unnecessarily.

So please don't get caught up in the purely hypothetical scenario of women choosing to have late-term abortions.

[Joyfully Available]

@Rachel333 She was an immature person who wasn’t capable of taking personal responsibility for herself. Sorry... you won’t guilt me into thinking of her differently even all these years later. 

With that, I will bow out of the discussion. I don’t enjoy arguing online & your tone seems to be taking an inflammatory turn. 

[anjulibai]

My mom had an abortion because she was miscarrying, but there was still a heartbeat. Kind of similar to that poor woman that died in Ireland several years ago.

My mom probably would have died without getting an abortion, and I wouldn't be here. 

My mother very much wanted children and believed she wouldn't be able to carry one to term. She felt very blessed that she was able to have me. 

4 minutes ago, Joyfully Available said:

@Rachel333 She was an immature person who wasn’t capable of taking personal responsibility for herself. Sorry... you won’t guilt me into thinking of her differently even all these years later. 

With that, I will bow out of the discussion. I don’t enjoy arguing online & your tone seems to be taking an inflammatory turn. 

Having an abortion was taking personal responsibility for herself. 

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, Joyfully Available said:

@Rachel333 She was an immature person who wasn’t capable of taking personal responsibility for herself. Sorry... you won’t guilt me into thinking of her differently even all these years later. 

With that, I will bow out of the discussion. I don’t enjoy arguing online & your tone seems to be taking an inflammatory turn. 

That's fine if you need to bow out of the discussion -- that can often be a good decision for yourself, and I certainly have plenty of times when I feel like I need to just close the page! -- but I just find it really ugly to be so judgmental about a woman who experienced an unplanned pregnancy and chose to have an abortion. I'm not trying to "guilt you" into thinking differently (You "can't help having personal opinions" you need to share on which women you don't think deserve abortion, but sharing my opinion that I feel bad for your roommate is "guilting" you into something? ), and I really don't expect your opinion to change at all, but I do think it's important to defend women like your roommate. She probably was irresponsible at 20 -- most 20-year-olds are! -- but so what? She still gets to make a choice, and as @anjulibai said, she did take responsibility for herself by choosing to have an abortion.

[pook]

42 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

So why did you place all the blame on her? Why wasn’t it her BOYFRIEND’s responsibility to ensure that he was ejaculating in a way that wouldn’t result in pregnancy? 

Because 100% of the time, unplanned pregnancies are the result of irresponsible semen dispensation. A woman need not take the pill, she may have as many partners as she wishes, she may cum as many times as she wants, and it’s will still be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for her to get pregnant unless there is an irresponsible penis involved.

And while both parties should excercise responsibility with regards to sex, is it not PRIMARILY the duty of the semen giver to ensure his semen is deposited responsibly? It makes no sense to put that primarily on the woman. That’s all patriarchy. 

While she failed, her failure was secondary. Where is the blame for the MEN responsible for causing these pregnancies? Where are the consequences for THEM?

Why do we still blame women for unwanted pregnancies instead of the MEN who CHOSE to irresponsibly ejaculate? 

I love you man.  No seriously 

 

[brogue]

Just a friendly reminder while talking personal responsibility, that sometimes you can take all the right precautions (hormonal birth control, condoms, and any of the multitude of birth control available) and still end up pregnant. Birth control can and does fail sometimes. A great example is the pill can be less effective when the woman is on antibiotics - something I wasn't aware of for a long time while I was on the pill. Which is another reason why it's so important that abortion to be legal. Because, like it or not, abortion from an unplanned pregnancy isn't always because the two were irresponsible. 

[Rachel333]

I just don't understand the comments about irresponsibility. Why does it matter in this situation? Should irresponsible people be punished by having to become parents? That seems like a terrible idea! Or if they should still be able to get abortions then what's the point of bringing it up at all?

Of course I'm not saying that people shouldn't be responsible about preventing pregnancy, but once a woman is pregnant there's no point in chastising her for being "irresponsible" and I don't think irresponsibility should factor at all into the right to get an abortion.

[BernRul]

6 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Of course I'm not saying that people shouldn't be responsible about preventing pregnancy, but once a woman is pregnant there's no point in chastising her for being "irresponsible" and I don't think irresponsibility should factor at all into the right to get an abortion.

Yeah. I actually think that @Joyfully Available is right that it is irresponsible. But humans are imperfect beings, and all of us have been irresponsible to some degree, or made a mistake that we wish we could take back. The sinless can cast the first stone and all that. I think that it's fine to acknowledge that yeah, not taking birth control seriously is irresponsible while at the same time saying it's not for me to judge because I'm not perfect either. Like you said, someone who is irresponsible already isn't going to be magically cured by being forced to raise a child. And it does sound a tad bit like the fundie notion of punishing a woman for sex. 

[DooDahDame]

A couple of points to consider:

The father, Sweet Ole Bob, swears he loves you both and will take care of you...until the baby is born and then he becomes a SOB, leaves town, changes jobs often so no support, etc. Unfortunately this happens more than often than we know.

Then there is the “All or Nothing” argument. What it really means is that ALL have a choice or the choice is NOTHING. (If you are against termination, don’t, but do not confuse your feelings with mine.)

I am in my 70s and remember the thalidomide problem when Sherry Finkbine had to go to Scandinavia for an abortion because it could not be done here. Not many remember this. Medical science has come a long way but we don’t know all we should about new drugs being released.

I stand with Choice!

[SorenaJ]

6 hours ago, brogue said:

Birth control can and does fail sometimes. A great example is the pill can be less effective when the woman is on antibiotics - something I wasn't aware of for a long time while I was on the pill. Which is another reason why it's so important that abortion to be legal. Because, like it or not, abortion from an unplanned pregnancy isn't always because the two were irresponsible. 

The only antibiotics that have been proven to affect hormonal contraception is ritampin/ritampicin, used to treat tuberculosis. 

[adidas]

22 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

The only antibiotics that have been proven to affect hormonal contraception is ritampin/ritampicin, used to treat tuberculosis. 

Many women (me included) experience gastric upset when taking antibiotics. So while the antibiotics themselves don’t affect BC, losing the BC down the toilet due to an upset stomach can definitely be a factor. 

[VBOY9977]

So Lauren just liked this comment from the pregnancy center pic, it popped up on my following feed a few minutes ago:

Spoiler

...does this mean she’s not pregnant?

Or maybe she’s tired of people assuming other women are pregnant because they have a “glow”, which I’ve always found weird tbh

[just_ordinary]

3 hours ago, adidas said:

Many women (me included) experience gastric upset when taking antibiotics. So while the antibiotics themselves don’t affect BC, losing the BC down the toilet due to an upset stomach can definitely be a factor. 

I just want to chime in and say that most birth control options are actually really safe. But you need to know how to use them properly. Every doctor should tell their patent under what circumstances you don’t get the full protection of the product even though it’s written in the package insert (I read them but I know many don’t). If you are in a situation where you are sick and lose your BC down the toilet it’s not the BC failing. You just have to use a second option for the rest of the cycle (maybe condoms) or don’t have sex. Proper use of BC is important and should be talked about so much more. 

I see a lot of influencers promoting non hormonal birth control methods (basically all forms of nfp) and they mostly fail to disclose how much you have to be on the look out. You never know a hundred percent when you ovulate till you did (or maybe you will ovulate twice). I used nfp for both preventing a pregnancy and actually getting pregnant and it took quite some time to really figure it out and be as safe as possible. We still use condoms till we are sure ovulation occurred and while I never had a second we both know it can happen and carry the risk. I fear there might an increase of unwanted pregnancies especially with young naive women. 

BC should be a topic for both partners but as it is the woman who has to deal with the consequences to a bigger degree it is really important to make sure all are as educated about it as possible. That also entails the different abortion methods in my opinion. A chemical abortion is no fun either, an operative, while a standard procedure nowadays, still holds risk for your health and reproductive future and a late term abortion means you actually give birth to your child (and I agree no one takes that route without good and heartbreaking reasons. It must be horrible.). 

[Dutch_girl]

Early  or late abortions, please don't ever assume abortion is an easy choice. You might get the impression that someone thinks lightly of it, and maybe a very small percentage of woman do, but for most it is a hard decision to make. And by judging them to quickly, it closes the door for further conversation and help. Because not everybody has the same health literacy and skills (knowledge, communication) you and I have, and maybe the person needs the help to make sure an unwanted pregnancy doesn't happen again. Or the help to get through the situation. Or sometimes just a hug. Talk with them, not about them.

Re late term abortions: as a midwife I've assisted with a number of 'late term abortions'. I've seen the very difficult choices people have to make, the pain and the tears. Often it is because of the expected quality of life of mother and child. Whether you agree with that or not, it's their choice and parents make the choice with their mind and hearts. We once received a birth-announcement that said: because we love you, we let you go. I cried so hard, that was such a wanted en loved little girl. 

 

[JordynDarby5]

Anyone remember the song What its Like by Everlast?  

Lyrics

We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job you fucking slob, " is all he replies
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues

Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom that said he was in love
He said, "don't worry about a thing, baby doll I'm the man you've been dreaming of."
But three months later he say he won't date her or return her calls
And she swear, "god damn, if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls"
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walking through the door
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner and they call her a whore
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like

I've seen a rich man beg I've seen a good man sin
I've seen a tough man cry
I've seen a loser win and a sad man grin
I heard an honest man lie
I've seen the good side of bad and the downside of up
And everything between
I licked the silver spoon drank from the golden cup
And smoked the finest green
I stroked the fattest dimes at least a couple of times
Before I broke their heart
You know where it ends, yo, it usually depends on where you start

I knew this kid named Max who used to get fat stacks out on the corner with drugs
He liked to hang out late he liked to get shit-faced and keep the pace with thugs
Until late one night there was a big gun fight and max lost his head
He pulled out his chrome .45, talked some shit, and wound up dead
Now his wife and his kids are caught in the midst of all of this pain
You know it comes that way at least that's what they say when you play the game
God forbid you ever had to wake up to hear the news
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to lose

Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like to have to lose

[Four is Enough]

Aaaaaaaannnnnnnddd........ How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[bal maiden]

It is possible to hold both the beliefs that life has begin at conception (or heartbeat, whatever), and still be pro-choice, despite what pro-life narratives would have us believe. I can believe that a foetus is a proto-person, and still believe that the mother's life can be prioritised over that of the foetus. 

[Dandruff]

19 hours ago, Georgiana said:

I was anti-abortion until my college classmate challenged me. She’s Jewish, her religion does not believe life begins until after birth, and she asked BY WHAT LOGIC she ought to be prevented from seeking an abortion. I never had an answer for her, because there isn’t one.

I'm Jewish and, while by no means considering myself an expert, understand Jewish belief on the subject to be less absolute than that.  There has been considerable debate and there are differences in views between the Orthodox and Conservative/Reform movements.  My take on it:  At forty days, a fetus changes status from "mere water" to "recognized"; however, a woman may abort at any time if the fetus is a threat to her life.  Definition of what constitutes a sufficient threat has also been debated.  Consideration is also given if the fetus - without being a threat to the mother's physical health - has severe defects or is causing severe mental/psychological damage (explicitly including rape/incest) to the mother.  Otherwise, at the forty day point, it is not viewed as acceptable to abort without approval unless one or more of the conditions above are present.

@Georgiana It is also believed (and has been debated) that a fetus doesn't achieve full "personhood" until birth, since it's not considered to have a viable soul before then.

 

[Carm_88]

I used to be in the camp of "Abortions only for rape and incest...blah blah blah." Then I got out in the world and beyond my sheltered teenaged life, realized that life is a lot harder for a lot of people. Once upon a time in a class far far away, there was an abortion debate and I made the comment that I was a birth control mistake baby and I was very much pro choice. To which the other person stated "Well, if your mother aborted you, how would you feel?" Well, my answer then and now and forever more shall be: I wouldn't know. She wouldn't be aborting the walking talking human being that I was then. She would be aborting the fetus, the embryo, the whatever; but that wouldn't be me. I didn't come out of the womb fully formed, I became who I was after many, many years; I still continue to grow as a person.

I don't need to know someone's life story, if they had an abortion; they did. It was the best choice for them and I have no right without walking in their shoes to judge the choice they made. Children should never be a punishment for having sex, they should be well loved and well cared for, wanted. It hurts to know that you weren't really wanted. I wish that my Mom had the choice to abort me, but she didn't. I was born in 1988 and abortion became fully legal in 1989. Not that I think she would have aborted me anyway, but I wish she had the choice. That's what I want for all women, to be able to make that choice and do it; no protesters, no judgment, it just is.

[just_ordinary]

On 11/3/2018 at 11:35 PM, Carm_88 said:

I used to be in the camp of "Abortions only for rape and incest...blah blah blah." Then I got out in the world and beyond my sheltered teenaged life, realized that life is a lot harder for a lot of people. Once upon a time in a class far far away, there was an abortion debate and I made the comment that I was a birth control mistake baby and I was very much pro choice. To which the other person stated "Well, if your mother aborted you, how would you feel?" Well, my answer then and now and forever more shall be: I wouldn't know. She wouldn't be aborting the walking talking human being that I was then. She would be aborting the fetus, the embryo, the whatever; but that wouldn't be me. I didn't come out of the womb fully formed, I became who I was after many, many years; I still continue to grow as a person.

I don't need to know someone's life story, if they had an abortion; they did. It was the best choice for them and I have no right without walking in their shoes to judge the choice they made. Children should never be a punishment for having sex, they should be well loved and well cared for, wanted. It hurts to know that you weren't really wanted. I wish that my Mom had the choice to abort me, but she didn't. I was born in 1988 and abortion became fully legal in 1989. Not that I think she would have aborted me anyway, but I wish she had the choice. That's what I want for all women, to be able to make that choice and do it; no protesters, no judgment, it just is.

I am pro choice. But I feel your argument is lacking a bit. Yes, you wouldn’t know. 

But to say “I didn't come out of the womb fully formed, I became who I was after many, many years; I still continue to grow as a person.” implies that you are still becoming who you are, because you aren’t going to stop to grow and change. One could argue that the person you are now wouldn’t know if you had been killed five years ago. But that doesn’t make it ok. 

Please note, I only feel your argument lacks not that your point of view on abortion lacks (though after reading so many pages while ExtraordinaryBaby won’t sleep I am not sure who had what POV in detail. So maybe I do disagree with your full POV).