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Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders


Georgiana

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1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

This reminds me of Kristina who went from skirts only/public school is of Satan, to wearing pants and putting her kids in public school yet still insists she has never changed her mind on anything.

Last I checked Kristina was IFB and she is wearing pants and sending her kids to public school, so again, IFB does not = skirts only/homeschooling. 

OMG, she lives far too close to me. Even closer than Capt'n Bret

33 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I have a question. Not just for our former/current Fundies/Fundie curious, but anyone who wants to answer - what do you think is the main difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Christian? Is there even a difference at this point?

And for the record I know how tiresome this conversation can be, but I really appreciate the comments and discussion that has been happening here. Especially those from our former-Fundies. Those of us who have not lived this type of lifestyle can often have a very tough time understanding the nuances and differences between different Fundamentalist groups. I mean, I’ve tried hard to listen and learn the past few years and I still have trouble understanding some stuff. So I think your comments (as they pertain to this specific flavor of Fundie) are very important and helpful.

Conservatives are fundie-adjacent but not as dogmatic. Doctrinal differences are not as a big a deal as long as the end result is the same. 

It's more stylistic  than anything - they may watch TV, do "worldly" stuff but they still want the same basic outcomes as fundies; they are just less picky about how they get there.

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22 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Do clothes make the fundie?  Or is it something more?  FJ discusses the nature of fundie-dom and how it is defined.  Also probably the Dillards will eventually do something stupid, and we'll talk about them here too.   

Mr. D has just reiterated his ant-trans stance by commenting on Jazz Jennings' surgery.

I don't know much about various religious dress codes but Jill could run around naked and it would not make the Dillard beliefs any less obnoxious. 

Edited by Snarkangel Gabriel
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6 minutes ago, Snarkangel Gabriel said:

Mr. D has just reiterated his ant-trans stance by commenting on Jazz Jennings' surgery.

I don't know much about various religious dress codes but Jill could run around naked and it would not make the Dillard beliefs any less obnoxious. 

I need more than a love button for this comment.

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35 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I have a question. Not just for our former/current Fundies/Fundie curious, but anyone who wants to answer - what do you think is the main difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Christian? Is there even a difference at this point?

And for the record I know how tiresome this conversation can be, but I really appreciate the comments and discussion that has been happening here. Especially those from our former-Fundies. Those of us who have not lived this type of lifestyle can often have a very tough time understanding the nuances and differences between different Fundamentalist groups. I mean, I’ve tried hard to listen and learn the past few years and I still have trouble understanding some stuff. So I think your comments (as they pertain to this specific flavor of Fundie) are very important and helpful.

That's an interesting question, as to whether there's a difference between conservative Christian and Fundie! It might be tricky for me to answer: I live in a town where tons of people are Fundie but define themselves as conservative. I think there's a lot of overlap! Also some people here would define themselves as conservative and Christian, which to them means that they vote Republican and go to church on Sundays, even though theology really doesn't enter their daily life. 

I can't really tease out the difference right now. Perhaps somebody else can assist. Thanks for your honest questions! I appreciate deep but polite discussions, really. 

Oh, and to @MargaretElliott I'm still kinda pissed at my mom about the pants thing. When I started wearing them, it was a HUGE FUCKING CATASTROPHE and now she wears pants and is like, "eh, I was too legalistic about it." Damn.

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41 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I have a question. Not just for our former/current Fundies/Fundie curious, but anyone who wants to answer - what do you think is the main difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Christian? Is there even a difference at this point?

And for the record I know how tiresome this conversation can be, but I really appreciate the comments and discussion that has been happening here. Especially those from our former-Fundies. Those of us who have not lived this type of lifestyle can often have a very tough time understanding the nuances and differences between different Fundamentalist groups. I mean, I’ve tried hard to listen and learn the past few years and I still have trouble understanding some stuff. So I think your comments (as they pertain to this specific flavor of Fundie) are very important and helpful.

As an ex-fundagelical, I don't really know what the difference is. 3 years after the legalization of same-sex marriage, most churches don't recognize same sex marriage. Not even United Methodists, and I would otherwise categorize them as moderate. (They ordain women and are generally pretty egalitarian.) What does it mean to be "Christian" even? There are potentially thousands of sects. A few deny the Trinity, supposedly a foundation of Christian faith. We all know the charitable work of the Salvation Army, who don't observe salvation and communion, two more foundations of the Christian faith. It's a big hot mess to me which is why I had to leave religion behind. 

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8 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I need more than a love button for this comment.

Yes! I needed a combined heart-laugh-upvote-high-five button!

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44 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

but anyone who wants to answer - what do you think is the main difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Christian? Is there even a difference at this point?

There is a difference, but they seem to be getting closer together. I think gay rights has really made them want to join forces. They are losing their war on oppression and it is freaking both groups out. Young people are not adopting the anti-gay stance that has been central to both movements for a long time.  The fundamentalist Christians seem to care more about theological differences and spending forever having John Shrader type arguments about salvation. I could be wrong, but the conservative Christian types don't seem to care what sort of Bible translation you use and are less inclined to argue over the minutiae. 

At least in my experience, but fundamental Christians and conservative Christians are united in their battle to use the government to "take back America", they don't agree on a lot of things, but they do have that in common. Of course, there will always be outliers and we could find both fundamental and conservative Christians who are appalled at people like Pence and what he stands for and don't want the government to become extreme conservative right. 

Pence, though, is a straight up fundie in my mind. The man is evil and won't be happy till he can shove his beliefs down the throats of everyone in America. 

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Bless the fundie hearts. They can't unite around what they love (like oh I don't know Jesus). Only around what they hate. Abortion and same-sex marriage. 

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1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

I have a question. Not just for our former/current Fundies/Fundie curious, but anyone who wants to answer - what do you think is the main difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Christian? Is there even a difference at this point?

Im not a Fundie, i do go to church but I subscribe to a pretty liberal view of the Bible and Im pretty much the opposite of fire and brimstone. I also live in an area with quite a few fundies and what I'd consider conservative Christians (CC). I'll outline what I believe are major differences:

Lets start with clothing because it's s hot topic -

Fundies- typically wear modest clothing that I consider purposely stands out as being modest. Not even just the frumpers but ALWAYS wearing long skirts and dresses, very high collars, always sleeves no tanks, boys usually in khakis and polos, pregnant women just wearing bigger sizes not bump showing maturnity clothes. 

CC- a more blending fashionable modest. Like jinjer wears now. Maybe a teenage daughter that tries to get away with some thing a little "too highly hemmed or low cut" kids wear everyday kids clothes and look matchy-matchy at church. 

Schooling-

Fundies- Homeschooled, girls not incouraged to have and continuing education. Boys maybe go to a Christian college or seminary school if they want. Encouraged to stay within church and family unit.

CC- private school usually. Maybe public in a good school district but usually public school for high school. They may go to a more main stream Christian college or a regular college (especially if good at sports). They make friends at school or after school activities  that may have different beliefs abs that's okay as long as the child doesn't adopt any un Christian habits from it.

 

childreering 

Fundies- As many as the lord will give them. very strict rules and harsh punishments. Maybe pre approved children's movies and shows. Children are expected to be very adult like and have many responsibilities. Mom stays home no question. 

CC- may have more children than average but will use condoms or NFP... possibly even birth control pills. Strict expectations of behavior but less harsh. They may or may not spank but probably use state dcfs guidelines at least. Children are expected to do chores but a normal amount and have more rules like no makeup until they are 13 or no dating until 16. Mom may work maybe not. If she does most commonly  part time.

dating

fundies- courtship, chaperones, daddy will find my Prince Charming.

CC- they date around but no sex before marriage is taught, maybe followed. They find they're own dates but if they're parents disapprove then they may end the relationship.

Bible views

fundies- very literal, fire and brimstone to the death repent for everything even though your probably going to hell anyway.

CC- more wiggle room and believe repenting fixes it. 

 

Evangelism

Fundies- take every opportunity to espouse their beliefs on people heavy handed

CC- will talk your ear off about their testimony if you ask them, they go on a mission trip or two and post all over social media about it to prove how godly they are.

marital relationships 

Fundies- the husband is the head of the house and you will not question him. end of story.

CC- carries quite a bit but most commonly husband and wife talk and agree on things but husband can have final say.

political views

fundie- will vote purely for social issues

CC- usually votes for social issues but other things come into play. Possibly didn't vote trump in a Ben seewald esk way.

Doctor advice about more pregnancies

fundies- won't listen because Gods will

CC- follow doctor advice with the same frequency as general population.

Im sure that there's more but that's off the top of my head.

 

ETA- social views are similar enough to be negligible 

Edited by Daisy0322
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2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I'm sure for some it is. And for the Duggars/Bates it might have felt like a big step to put on pants*, but it can't be take to be a huge sign they aren't fundie or are less fundie since wearing pants is an acceptable part of their fundie communities. They are still preaching the same awful stuff, they are just wearing different clothes while they preach it. 

*we don't know and they haven't said

I definitely agree with all that.  :) 

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@Daisy0322 I think your definition really applies specifically to whatever sect of fundie you have nearby. A lot of these items on your list cross back and forth.

The differences are strictness in doctrinal interpretation and really not much else these days. Fundie is really about doctrine, not the outward stuff.

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38 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Pence, though, is a straight up fundie in my mind. The man is evil and won't be happy till he can shove his beliefs down the throats of everyone in America. 

Oh, the worst king of Fundie.  He won't admit it though.  He just says he is regular Born Again Christian.  And exRC.  "Bible Believing" is another way of pretending you are not a Fundamentalist Christian just middle of the road.

I really do think the lines are blurred at the moment between Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and conservative Christian in the US because they are in an unholy alliance.  And there are so many different sects and splinter groups.  You can still smoke out a true Fundamentalist by saying that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally though.  

The Wartburg Watch has a series on this, @VelociRapture.  One article: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/04/28/fundamentalists-or-evangelicals-where-do-i-fit/

36 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Bless the fundie hearts. They can't unite around what they love (like oh I don't know Jesus). Only around what they hate. Abortion and same-sex marriage. 

Exactly.  The good news is that the unholy alliance is unlikely to last for long.  They'll split up again over minor points of doctrine.

A Fundamentalist, a Calvinist, a Pentecostalist, a Trail of Blood Baptist, and an Arminian walk into a bar ... and all Hell breaks out!

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

@Daisy0322 I think your definition really applies specifically to whatever sect of fundie you have nearby. A lot of these items on your list cross back and forth.

The differences are strictness in doctrinal interpretation and really not much else these days. Fundie is really about doctrine, not the outward stuff.

That's essentially what the debate is about 

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I would love it if there were a single objective definition of fundamentalist, but there's really not., and it varies from religion to religion. Mormon fundamentalism has a particular definition, for example, which means that Mormons who aren't part of a polygamist sect aren't "fundamentalists Mormons" even if they otherwise fit the criteria for what we might consider fundamentalist.

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9 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I would love it if there were a single objective definition of fundamentalist, but there's really not., and it varies from religion to religion

Quote

Fundamentalist

NOUN

1A person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion. ‘religious fundamentalists’

1.1 A person who adheres strictly to the basic principles of any subject or discipline. ‘a free-market fundamentalist’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fundamentalist

And Christian Fundamentalism:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

See how many versions there are.

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1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

Right, even that gives multiple definitions and that second one is incredibly broad, which can make it difficult to agree on what exactly is or is not fundamentalism.

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4 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Right, even that gives multiple definitions and that second one is incredibly broad, which can make it difficult to agree on what exactly is or is not fundamentalism.

I think that is why some of us get really really invested in this debate, especially when the fangirls start squealing over shorts and jeans on some of these people. It's the beliefs that matter, not the outward appearance. Most Mormans are fundies, but they aren't Fundamentalist Mormans. Isn't that simple?

I would take Sarah Maxwell wearing shorts and moving to a small studio apartment as signs of a sea change. Not so much with J-Rod. She'd likely decide her legs in shorts are good for Plexus sales, so she wears them.

Edited by nelliebelle1197
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5 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I would take Sarah Maxwell wearing shorts and moving to a small studio apartment as signs of a sea change. 

May Rufus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all the goddesses make this happen!

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2 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Most Mormans are fundies, but they aren't Fundamentalist Mormans.

See, I don't think I'd agree with that. :pb_lol: Most Mormons I know are pretty casual about their religion.

The more this gets argued, though, the less I think it even matters what label you put on these people. "Fundamentalism" is useful to talk about a religious movement, but figuring out exactly what label applies to individuals is a different matter.

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I mean the difference between conservative Christian and fundie is a matter of opinion. I see lots of differences between the two I just don't think it makes about difference because their core values are the same. I don't think everyone will ever agree on definitions though because it so subjective. I think that's okay though.

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9 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

See, I don't think I'd agree with that. :pb_lol: Most Mormons I know are pretty casual about their religion.

The more this gets argued, though, the less I think it even matters what label you put on these people. "Fundamentalism" is useful to talk about a religious movement, but figuring out exactly what label applies to individuals is a different matter.

I guess I am thinking about it in terms of doctrine - but you know, that doctrine scares me as does the fact that anyone believes most of that, so let's move on!

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Actually, mainstream Mormons are a more interesting example than I originally thought. Obviously all groups care about both beliefs and practices, but some emphasize one more than the other, and Mormons do tend to emphasize practice over belief (or orthopraxy over orthodoxy), while what most people here seem to agree on, even if we disagree on the relevance of certain practices, is that core beliefs are more important than practices.

With Mormonism, there is a lot more variety in belief than a lot of people realize. If you read Mormon blogs you'll find some members who differ quite a bit in their theology (like some feminist Mormons who prefer to worship a Heavenly Mother) while maintaining good status in the LDS church. They might not be common, but they're there.

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2 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I guess I am thinking about it in terms of doctrine - but you know, that doctrine scares me as does the fact that anyone believes most of that, so let's move on!

But aren't all doctrine's fundie?  Just by definition?  

Living around Mormons I'm always really curious about this.  There are definitely a sub group that will do whatever the first presidency says, and one that thinks G-d tells them personally what to do.  Those are scary.  But the large group that believes but thinks the presidency is wrong and that things should change, I'm not so worried about them.

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The problem is the term 'fundamentalist'. imo it's just too broad and somehow too narrow at the same time, and we're getting way too hung up on who does or does not qualify as 'fundie' based on X, Y, or Z definition.

I'm personally fine with using fundie as a broad catch-all term... and while I know FJ exists to 'discuss the damage caused by fundamentalists' I think you could easily take out the word 'fundamentalists' and replace it with 'Christian Dominionists', or 'right-wing religious ideologues', or 'politically active conservative evangelicals', or 'patriarchal Christians' or any number of other terms and it wouldn't matter whether they're 'technically' fundie or not.

As far as I'm concerned, they all exist under the same umbrella, and whether one group allows women to wear pants, or another is okay with PG-13 movies, or this woman homeschools but uses NFP, or that guy beats his kids with a stick but thinks it's fine to have a beer or two on the weekend is basically irrelevant.

If someone seems to be taking small steps away from certain ideologies with which they were raised, or formerly held, that might be somewhat interesting. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to wonder, "What's the motivation? Are they rethinking their beliefs? Could this be a sign they're becoming more liberal? Are they just trying to insidiously appeal to more potential converts? Are they just joining one of the other 'fundie' groups with slightly different rules/expectations?" 

As long as we understand that speculation is speculation and that it will either take a lot of time (like years), and/or one or more VERY drastic and obvious changes, and/or the people in question coming straight out and sharing their motivations for us to know with anything approaching certainty what's going on... speculate away. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because a certain change may signal something big for one person, it must necessarily signal the same thing for another. If switching to pants was the impetus or the first sign of your own escape from fundamentalism, awesome. Doesn't mean the same will hold true for Jill, or Jinger, or Alyssa. Maybe it will! But we absolutely can't assume that.

And as always, it's good to remember that what we see from these people is 99.99% only what they choose to show us, and that it probably constitutes like 5% of their actual lives.

Edited by singsingsing
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1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

But aren't all doctrine's fundie?  Just by definition?  

Living around Mormons I'm always really curious about this.  There are definitely a sub group that will do whatever the first presidency says, and one that thinks G-d tells them personally what to do.  Those are scary.  But the large group that believes but thinks the presidency is wrong and that things should change, I'm not so worried about them.

Only if you think yours is the only one that counts. There are plenty of denominations that don't think the church down the street is full of hell-bound heathens because one sprinkles and one dunks.  My BFF who is a lesbian Episcopal priest does not think a celibate Catholic priest is going to hell - she just thinks they worship the same god in different ways and both ways are okay. That's the real difference.

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