Josiah Duggar Part 6: Now Officially Engaged!

[seraaa]

6 hours ago, Georgiana said:

In this culture, a man who CHOOSES not to be hypermasculine is in rebellion.  As much if not more than a woman wearing pants and cutting her hair.  It's choosing to go against the norms of the rigid gender binary that this movement insists upon.  And it's an important rebellion because it reinforces that "feminine" traits are NOT lesser.  That they are NOT weaker.  And that men can (and maybe should be encouraged to) adopt them.  

 

Good point, well made.

[bekkah]

And Kendra is local. That opens dates up in June.  Jinger is the only one not to be local and needs to be accommodated. 

A Duggar Daugghter will always supersede a DIL in the Duggar world. 

[seraaa]

5 hours ago, gameofunbeknowns said:

This is not speculation in the least. I have a genuine question though....are we now operating under the belief that “Gaydar” isn’t really a thing? Serious question. What are you guys opinion?

I would argue that someone not presenting as ~super manly~~ is not, on its own, enough to make the call with confidence (as far that you can call something that is basically a guess or supposition). You might have a hunch based on a number of things - that they've said, body language, etc - but I don't think we have any of that here.

[singsingsing]

5 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

A marriageable girl flirting with boys or anything more than handholding has never been considered a suitable feature in a potential bride either. It might lead to worse behavior after marriage. 

Not sure why you bring Up FLDS as that is  not applicable to The vast majority of Women in history simply because other than the cultures that had concubinage or a hareem culture  for the extremely wealthy Marriage was between 2 people or in some periods perhaps another wife or concubine  taken later.  

Your first paragraph is simply untrue. I'm not sure where you're getting this, but it does not correspond with reality.

Your second paragraph is confusing. You claimed that a woman would not be psychologically affected by something that was 'the norm' for her. What I described is the 'norm' for women in the FLDS. You were using rich women and royal brides in arranged marriages as your example - also not the 'norm' throughout human history. In fact, I'd argue that being a rich bride in an arranged marriage has been far less common throughout history than being involved in some form of plural marriage. 

[Rachel333]

Also, no one is obsessed with gaydar more than gay people.  And there are good reasons for that; gay people want to be able to recognize each other, and until very recently it hasn't been something you can discuss openly so those subtle signals matter.

It's not all stereotypes either, though that does play a role. (Partly because gay people often embrace those stereotypes--like lesbians wearing lots of flannel--as a way of signaling that they're gay.) Things like never mentioning a partner's gender is also a big tell. Usually straight people don't think twice about saying "my husband" or "my wife," but people in same sex relationships tend to be way more cautious. I started a new job recently and a couple things just made me get the feeling that my manager was gay even though he's a pretty masculine looking guy. One of the main things was the fact that he wore a wedding ring and would talk about things at home but he never actually mentioned his spouse directly. I was right, and today he showed me a picture of him and his husband and I tried to subtly let him know that I'm gay as well. Nothing too personal, but I definitely felt more comfortable realizing that he wouldn't have a problem with me being gay, and he seemed a little more comfortable with me as well after that

[TheRadleyPorch]

17 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

A marriageable girl flirting with boys or anything more than handholding has never been considered a suitable feature in a potential bride either. It might lead to worse behavior after marriage. 

Not sure why you bring Up FLDS as that is  not applicable to The vast majority of Women in history simply because other than the cultures that had concubinage or a hareem culture  for the extremely wealthy Marriage was between 2 people or in some periods perhaps another wife or concubine  taken later.  

As  @singsingsing has already said your first paragraph is simply not true, though it is a common belief and way of perceiving historical progression. People often think of social conservatism around sex, marriage, and courtship as "the way it's always been," and perceive a linear progression from extreme social conservatism in "the olden days" to "netflix and chill" in "modern times." Fundies themselves are quite committed to this view as well, and often see chaperoned courtship, no kissing before marriage, etc, as a "return" to a simpler, more wholesome, more Christian time that in fact never really existed. As an example, The Puritans (a term still often used as shorthand for extremely buttoned-up and sexually rigid), in fact openly kissed, flirted, and were alone together before marriage--and a significant portion of brides were pregnant on their wedding day. This wasn't condoned, of course, but it also wasn't that big of a deal as long as the woman married the father before the baby came so it wouldn't be a bastard (not my terminology). 

tl;dr, history is not a straight line. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

10 minutes ago, TheRadleyPorch said:

As  @singsingsing has already said your first paragraph is simply not true, though it is a common belief and way of perceiving historical progression. People often think of social conservatism around sex, marriage, and courtship as "the way it's always been," and perceive a linear progression from extreme social conservatism in "the olden days" to "netflix and chill" in "modern times." Fundies themselves are quite committed to this view as well, and often see chaperoned courtship, no kissing before marriage, etc, as a "return" to a simpler, more wholesome, more Christian time that in fact never really existed. As an example, The Puritans (a term still often used as shorthand for extremely buttoned-up and sexually rigid), in fact openly kissed, flirted, and were alone together before marriage--and a significant portion of brides were pregnant on their wedding day. This wasn't condoned, of course, but it also wasn't that big of a deal as long as the woman married the father before the baby came so it wouldn't be a bastard (not my terminology). 

tl;dr, history is not a straight line. 

it been mentioned on here before that Duggar's have watched Little house well Laura kissed Almonzo when they got engaged. in the books and in the TV show they kissed when they first started dating so I  am surprised it was on the okay list. 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

I'll chime in as also surprised that this engagement happened so soon. but also not, because Duggars, lol. So the earliest we've heard of them courting is Jan 6 (I think per Pickles?....) and the latest the engagement could be is today (which I'm inclined to believe that they're more prompt on announcing engagements). I think their wedding will either be the day after her 19th birthday, or the first weekend of June. I've mentioned on the baby thread I think, but I would find it *fucking hilarious* if SiRen1 showed up on April Fools 2019 xD which would make a June-ish conception perfect timing haha. And the Duggar wheel circles 'round again....

Also, YES I'VE THOUGH JOSIAH RESEMBLES JOSH FOR AGES, in appearance and especially in the way he speaks and personality-wise, since the Marjorie era. and the beard just makes it more prominent. I think whereas Josh was always a cocky asshole, Josiah just seems kind of over-eager to please & to fit into his "funny guy" niche amongst the 19, though.

[Lgirlrocks]

3 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

This is a side bar as we enter the historical dating discussion I was shocked that Amish culture generally allows unchaperoned dating, holding hands and kissing.

Also, is Josiah's hair auburn? If so, did we always know that? It kind of shocked me grown out with a beard looking reddish.

My boyfriends brother has brown hair and a very red beard so it can happen.

It baffles me when they say they have known this person for years, when they court or get engage in Josiah’s and joys case. How well do they know them? In episodes where families get together it’s always guys hanging out with guys and girls hanging out with girls. 

[ariel9]

I wonder if other fundie couples feel engagement envy, like people are privy to in the non fundie world. For instance if a couple who has been courting longer sees that Siren just began courting in January and are engaged already would they feel like the person they are courting isn’t that serious?

[Ivycoveredtower]

5 minutes ago, ariel9 said:

I wonder if other fundie couples feel engagement envy, like people are privy to in the non fundie world. For instance if a couple who has been courting longer sees that Siren just began courting in January and are engaged already would they feel like the person they are courting isn’t that serious?

with Joy I would believe it a bit since she had known Austin since she was like five and Joy used to be shown hanging out with the boys a lot. with Si and Joe when it comes to Lauren and Kendra I would say it's more like the sisters have known them a long time and probably talked about them with in the brother's hearing. 

[GreatScott]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

 

When it comes to FJ it's a little different because of the fundie aspect, and I want to be clear that I have absolutely no problem with the no speculating on children rule. Still, it kind of bugs me sometimes that the rule doesn't actually mean no speculating on children's sexuality, it means no speculating that they're gay. People here speculate about kids being in straight relationships all the time with no problem. And I'm not saying that's wrong because of course one type of speculation has different implications for fundies than the other. It just makes me sad I guess to realize that's still where the culture is.

This statement really made me stop. It’s something I had never thought about, that! speculating is fine if it’s heterosexual. Like people are already commenting on Jason and how they think he’ll announce a courtship as soon as he’s 18, and that’s totally fine speculation. Hmmm. 

 

Thank you for pointing this difference out. It really made me think. You’re right in that it’s a sad statement on where society is. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

6 minutes ago, ariel9 said:

I wonder if other fundie couples feel engagement envy, like people are privy to in the non fundie world. For instance if a couple who has been courting longer sees that Siren just began courting in January and are engaged already would they feel like the person they are courting isn’t that serious?

good point makes me think of Ben and Jessa they started to court before Jill and Derick but Jill and Derick got married first. I think Jessa was okay with that. but I think if the situation had been flipped Jill would have been upset. Jill seemed to like to egg on Derick's competitive nature on beating Ben and Jessa to the alter. 

I think Jessa really enjoyed the fact that she had baby 2 before Jill as she said to Ben now we can show them how to do something. having two babies. Jessa seemed done with Jill's one uping at that point. 

[FecundFundieFundus]

It's sad he can't come up with anything specific about his fiancee that he likes. Just "it came upon me that she was the one." Sounds like infatuation to me! I hope they can build a good to tolerable marriage after the luster fades and they're stuck. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, GreatScott said:

This statement really made me stop. It’s something I had never thought about, that! speculating is fine if it’s heterosexual. Like people are already commenting on Jason and how they think he’ll announce a courtship as soon as he’s 18, and that’s totally fine speculation. Hmmm. 

 

Thank you for pointing this difference out. It really made me think. You’re right in that it’s a sad statement on where society is. 

well I mean it's the Duggar's at some point they are going to start to court. it's a very slim chance that any of the 19 will go there whole lives without marrying someone of the opposite  sex.  well speculating if one of them is LGBT is so different in my mind. 

1 minute ago, FecundFundieFundus said:

It's sad he can't come up with anything specific about his fiancee that he likes. Just "it came upon me that she was the one." Sounds like infatuation to me! I hope they can build a good to tolerable marriage after the luster fades and they're stuck. 

more like he'd already had one failed courtship and Jana and John didn't seem about to get married so Si had to jump to keep counting on and his parents happy plus stop any speculation about his former broken courtship and Lauren was there and he thought hmm I'll take her. 

[FundieCentral]

Saw the news and headed straight for FreeJinger. 
Man, she's so young. I have no doubt that they're in love an all, but as I always say - I wish they had had some life experience. A bit of college or work, maybe owning your own vehicle/renting your own apartment, managing a household, going on vacation by yourself, managing your own budget... You know, just the essential skills of adulthood. Going straight from childhood to married life is a lot in a short amount of time. And then the inevitable kids. 

I may also get married this summer (I'm 21), but while I do think I am very young, I think of myself as mature enough to take on marriage and its complications. However, if there was not a legal necessity to get married, my s.o. and I would probably wait another 2-3 years. Still young? Yes. But we have both graduated university, will be working, and are looking forward to moving into our own place together as a married couple. People are different, life paths are different, so I can't really condemn anyone for getting married at any given time because someone else will always say it's too early/too late/they haven't known each other for long enough/too long/etc etc. 

Regarding Gaydar: I'm female & heterosexual, but also empathetic enough to where I can easily imagine myself leading relationships with women. My intuition for people's preferences is usually pretty good. Not on first contact, obviously (unless people are very flamboyant/wear lots of rainbow/tell me), but upon interacting with people for longer amounts of time I can usually figure it out. That may also be because I am a pretty dominant person and  sometimes get put in the other camp, so people sometimes test the waters with me (and that's a real giveaway ) But yeah, it really doesn't actually matter (to me, that is). I agree with that. 
 

[GreatScott]

42 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

well I mean it's the Duggar's at some point they are going to start to court. it's a very slim chance that any of the 19 will go there whole lives without marrying someone of the opposite  sex.  well speculating if one of them is LGBT is so different in my mind. 

But that’s the point I mean. It’s totally fine for us to speculate on the sexuality of minors, as long as it’s a heteronormative way. Yes it’s about people who are conservative fundies, but it’s still the talk of them and their future marriage and sexuality. 

Its only wrong when it falls on the LGBT specutrm. The idea that heterosexual relationships are the norm and it’s not sexuality based by talking about the possible future relationships of minors.  

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

I always thought part of the reason speculation about the minors was prohibited here is because of the likelihood that someone in one of these families is reading FJ. If it got back to any of these parents that one child was seen as :::gasp::: possibly gay, there could be serious repercussions for that child to preserve the family image. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

11 minutes ago, GreatScott said:

Its only wrong when it falls on the LGBT specutrm. The idea that heterosexual relationships are the norm and it’s not sexuality based by talking about it about minors. 

You are fucking brilliant. 

[scoutsadie]

53 minutes ago, Lgirlrocks said:

My boyfriends brother has brown hair and a very red beard so it can happen.

Yeah, it's a thing: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/ginger-beards-non-redhead-men-why-happen-body-hair-a8032976.html

[Glasgowghirl]

Josiah does look like Josh and does have a similar personality to Josh when it came to his confidence, especially when he was younger. I hope he doesn't have people unfairly comparing him to Josh when it comes to the scandals. I hope it works out for them both.

[Timetraveler]

Ah well, as long as their first kiss won't be anything like this 

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

5 minutes ago, Timetraveler said:

Ah well, as long as their first kiss won't be anything like this 

 

that was one of the most cringworthy things I have ever seen and I wanted to throw up a little when she was talking step by step about the wedding night. 

[ItsaJjungle]

13 minutes ago, Timetraveler said:

Ah well, as long as their first kiss won't be anything like this 

 

Oh my god...what was he doing to her face?!?!? 

[gameofunbeknowns]

“And then I’ll take a shower and then I’ll put on my lingerie and I’ll come into the room and yeah I’ll have a surprise FOR you....” 

And then I’ll take the brain bleach and I’ll pour it I’ll over my brain and then that won’t be enough and then I’ll go to the liquor store and I’ll buy some Titos and then drink a bunch of that.....