Josiah Duggar Part 6: Now Officially Engaged!

[lumpentheologie]

I just wanted to chime in that it's very wrong to say that throughout history women have not been considered marriageable if they did anything more than handholding before marriage.  First of all, history is a long and complicated place, so basically anytime someone says 'throughout history' at the beginning of an argument they're probably wrong. I'm trying to get my students to stop doing this in their papers, but it's hard. 

But at least in European history (my field) the kind of respectability that 'marriageable' implies was simply not a thing for the vast majority of people who were peasants. There was a long and well-documented struggle on the part of the Church to try to impose its beliefs and standards on people's sexuality, and the higher clergy was often very frustrated at what they took to be the savage peasantry refusing to adopt even basic standards of chastity. Most village priests were from the same background as the people they served, and often weren't very helpful in this regard. Tons of women were pregnant whey they got married, and to most people this was not really a problem at all. Poor (i.e. most) women lived in a completely different world of social expectations than royal brides -- they were not raised primarily to be marriageable and solidify substantial political and economic power networks among families. They were meant to work, and having a strong worker as your mate was by far the most desirable trait in a match -- sexual purity would not even have come close to that. 

[VelociRapture]

@Rachel333Thank you for offering your thoughts and perspective (abd thank you to others who have as well.)

I’m straight and cis, so I don’t think my thoughts on this really mean much. Personally, I wish this wasn’t a big deal to talk about because that would be a sign that being Gay (or Bi or Asexual or Trans, etc.) really is accepted as being normal. Unfortunately, I think you’re right that the US hasn’t gotten there yet. There have been fantastic strides forward over the years, but there is still a long way to go. As such, I personally don’t feel comfortable speculating about pretty much any famous fundie online* - the internet is so public and it’s so difficult to get rid of something once it’s out there. Unfortunately, something as normal as thinking someone may be Gay (etc.) because X could have a pretty damaging impact on many of the people we discuss here. I’m not a cruel person. As much as I loathe what they stand for and believe, I also don’t want to see anyone harmed due to something I helped speculate about.

As for non-famous individuals, I still don’t speculate outside my own private thoughts because who someone falls in love with is none of my business. If someone feels comfortable opening up to me that’s awesome - if not, they deserve to do so when (if) they feel ready. Many of the LGBTQ+ people I personally know (including my brother) have told me that’s the right way to go about it, but I do understand not everyone is going to agree or feel the same way.

As for assuming people are straight - regardless of what I think someone's sexuality may be, I don’t really ask anyone if they’re in relationships or not. Especially if I just met them for the first time. I let them mention it if they want to, but otherwise we just talk about other things.

*There will always be exceptions to any rule, which is why I didn’t write that as a declarative statement.

ETA: I’m hoping I’m going about all this in a respectful way. I try to be a good (or at least passable) ally, but it can be difficult at times. I wish we were at a place where it really was no big deal to discuss. Unfortunately, I highly doubt that’ll ever be the case for IBLP Fundies.

[kachuu]

We visited the one in Mansfield, Missouri Summer 2016 and I was disappointed we couldn't go upstairs in the house. Growing up, i loved her books so it was really neat to see her writing desk. And how SHORT their kitchen counters were!

AND the two separate beds her and Almanzo slept in!! They still had the medicine in a case beside his bed that he was taking up until he died  

 

The tour really spoke to my inner kid, as you can tell!

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

That’s why I said “relatively” - DeSmet and Walnut Grove probably aren’t much further than Big Sandy. The other sites have much less to see. Have you read The Wilder Life?

Actually, DeSmet is twice as far as Big Sandy (600+ miles vs. 300 miles). It's a HAUL and it's not easy to get there. lol

Sorry for nitpicking.

And yes! I have read that. I'm such a LIW junkie. Had the sunbonnet and a ragdoll named Charlotte and insisted on reading by a coal-oil lamp. lol

[PainfullyAware]

@VelociRapture you made me think about the generational differences in my family regarding asking the question "are you married?" - or slapping someone on the back and saying "you need to find a girlfriend / boyfriend." In that context a straight relationship is always presumed.

 I never asked anyone about whether they are in a relationship. If it somehow comes up I always say an either/or option so that it's clear someone could be any sexual orientation. I also try to correct my family members by adding a same-sex option to their presumed questions. If that generational difference is more common overtime then hopefully it will become standardized in mainstream culture to reduce heteronormative excitations. And expectations that coupling-up is the only way to live!

Edited to add that my parents accept a homonormative relationship that models after heteronormative one. They never accepted my two same-sex relationships and called me a pervert for experimenting. I pass for straight but since I fell in love with a woman once feel like that label is not strictly accurate. However now that I've been in a 10 year straight marriage I don't worry about the label like I did. I felt like the Q for questioning might be the best one for me.

[VelociRapture]

43 minutes ago, PainfullyAware said:

@VelociRapture you made me think about the generational differences in my family regarding asking the question "are you married?" - or slapping someone on the back and saying "you need to find a girlfriend / boyfriend." In that context a straight relationship is always presumed.

 I never asked anyone about whether they are in a relationship. If it somehow comes up I always say an either/or option so that it's clear someone could be any sexual orientation. I also try to correct my family members by adding a same-sex option to their presumed questions. If that generational difference is more common overtime then hopefully it will become standardized in mainstream culture to reduce heteronormative excitations. And expectations that coupling-up is the only way to live!

Edited to add that my parents accept a homonormative relationship that models after heteronormative one. They never accepted my two same-sex relationships and called me a pervert for experimenting. I pass for straight but since I fell in love with a woman once feel like that label is not strictly accurate. However now that I've been in a 10 year straight marriage I don't worry about the label like I did. I felt like the Q for questioning might be the best one for me.

I’ve noticed a generational gap as well. My Uncles would joke around like that with us when we were teenagers or young college students. It always made us a bit uncomfortable regardless of what our orientation was/is. They’ve gotten better about it since my sister and I started seeing our (now) husbands and our brother came out publicly (though that might be because they don’t necessarily know how to act with my brother. They clearly love him though and that’s the important part.) That’s part of the reason I simply don’t ask people I don’t know well if they’re in a relationship. I don’t want to accidentally make anyone feel uncomfortable or put on the spot and I know it can be a sore subject at times for a lot of reasons.

(Plus, relationship status isn’t the only interesting thing about people and I never want to give even the hint of the impression that I think someone's worth is dependent on that.)

[Italiangirl]

Sooo if the wedding will be from mid May to early june how many pregnant bridsmaid there will be at SiRen  wedding? 2? 3? (Kendra, Jinger, jessa?) And who will be in the wedding party? All' the Duggar sister? With who is Lauren cose? I guest there will also be her mom like with Kendra 

any ideas? 

[bananabread]

I think Lauren is gorgeous, but I just cannot picture Josiah married. Hopefully this will give him the freedom to figure out his own beliefs and find his own version of happiness.

It's so ironic to me that fundies are all about "not having sex and instead really getting to know the person" when they're running into marriages at the first sign of physical attraction. Aren't these quickie marriages all about sex anyway? Is your spouse never having to be bothered by your exes really worth all that....? I feel like the vast majority of mature, emotionally healthy people can handle their partner's prior partners, experiences, and mistakes just fine...and recognize that it all led them to you, their true love.

[Rachel333]

I never ask about people's relationship status or sexuality either. If they want me to know they'll tell me but that seems like such an intrusive question to just ask.

Obviously not everyone feels the same way though! I've had a lot of complete strangers ask if I have a boyfriend and if finding a boyfriend is hard for me with my height. I just kind of laugh it off, but I don't really love those questions, especially from complete strangers! It's also particularly awkward being gay, because I generally won't come out to people I just met either. (There are exceptions; when I'm pretty sure I'll never see the person again sometimes I'll just outright say, "Nope, I'm a lesbian" and enjoy watching then squirm. ) 

[lumpentheologie]

33 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I never ask about people's relationship status or sexuality either. If they want me to know they'll tell me but that seems like such an intrusive question to just ask.

Obviously not everyone feels the same way though! I've had a lot of complete strangers ask if I have a boyfriend and if finding a boyfriend is hard for me with my height. I just kind of laugh it off, but I don't really love those questions, especially from complete strangers! It's also particularly awkward being gay, because I generally won't come out to people I just met either. (There are exceptions; when I'm pretty sure I'll never see the person again sometimes I'll just outright say, "Nope, I'm a lesbian" and enjoy watching then squirm. ) 

Ugh, I hate being asked by random strange men if I have a boyfriend. Because to them the answer to that question is going to determine whether they can hit on me or whether they should back off because I'm already owned. This has happened A LOT. 

Wearing an engagement ring recently has cut this down considerably. I almost didn't get a ring, because I don't like the symbolism of only the woman wearing an engagement ring -- to me it seems really like a sign that you're owned. Also we don't have a lot of money. But it works -- finally I can be in public without being constantly harassed by men.  The whole thing makes me sad and disgusted, though. 

[justoneoftwo]

16 hours ago, TheRadleyPorch said:

As  @singsingsing has already said your first paragraph is simply not true, though it is a common belief and way of perceiving historical progression. People often think of social conservatism around sex, marriage, and courtship as "the way it's always been," and perceive a linear progression from extreme social conservatism in "the olden days" to "netflix and chill" in "modern times." Fundies themselves are quite committed to this view as well, and often see chaperoned courtship, no kissing before marriage, etc, as a "return" to a simpler, more wholesome, more Christian time that in fact never really existed. As an example, The Puritans (a term still often used as shorthand for extremely buttoned-up and sexually rigid), in fact openly kissed, flirted, and were alone together before marriage--and a significant portion of brides were pregnant on their wedding day. This wasn't condoned, of course, but it also wasn't that big of a deal as long as the woman married the father before the baby came so it wouldn't be a bastard (not my terminology). 

tl;dr, history is not a straight line. 

I actually read an interesting book discussing how it wasn't a big deal if the baby was a bastard, as long as the father (determined by who the mother said was the dad during labor) paid child support. . . I don't know how wide spread that was, but it as really interesting.  

[Italiangirl]

@Rachel333 being overweight my self i keep founding people asking me that preatty often. Last evening i was at my usual bar and a men that i only see there somethimes come to me to tell me that i need to start a diet!

Like dude i barely know you why you think is a good day to start a conversation? 

I was really embarced so i just say something like "uh thanks i know" and finished my drink i left. 

 

[gameofunbeknowns]

3 minutes ago, Italiangirl said:

@Rachel333 being overweight my self i keep founding people asking me that preatty often. Last evening i was at my usual bar and a men that i only see there somethimes come to me to tell me that i need to start a diet!

Like dude i barely know you why you think is a good day to start a conversation? 

I was really embarced so i just say something like "uh thanks i know" and finished my drink i left. 

 

The gall of someone to do that! What the hell? I’m sorry you had to deal with that. Truly despicable.

[Italiangirl]

6 minutes ago, gameofunbeknowns said:

The gall of someone to do that! What the hell? I’m sorry you had to deal with that. Truly despicable.

Yeah the fact was that i only see him sometimes at the bar and we barely go over a goodafternoon or goodbay is not even someone near my age, He could be my father! I was really embarased and a little bit hurt. I  could understand a friend or someone maybe closer but a basically stranger??

[JordynDarby5]

54 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

Wearing an engagement ring recently has cut this down considerably. I almost didn't get a ring, because I don't like the symbolism of only the woman wearing an engagement ring -- to me it seems really like a sign that you're owned. Also we don't have a lot of money. But it works -- finally I can be in public without being constantly harassed by men.  The whole thing makes me sad and disgusted, though. 

That seemed to have the opposite effect for my sister-in-law. She was never asked out more in her life then when she was wearing her engagement ring. She started joking if she had known that when she was single she would have bought one to wear in order to get dates.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

Ugh, I hate being asked by random strange men if I have a boyfriend. Because to them the answer to that question is going to determine whether they can hit on me or whether they should back off because I'm already owned. This has happened A LOT. 

Wearing an engagement ring recently has cut this down considerably. I almost didn't get a ring, because I don't like the symbolism of only the woman wearing an engagement ring -- to me it seems really like a sign that you're owned. Also we don't have a lot of money. But it works -- finally I can be in public without being constantly harassed by men.  The whole thing makes me sad and disgusted, though. 

"Not you" was my go-to response to "do you have a boyfriend" for a while. Though in rural China, my relationship status was a topic of intense interest to pretty much anyone I encountered. I will confess that various cabbies in Lincang, Baoshan, and Longling think that I'm either a lesbian or dating Chris Hemsworth, who is totally just my boyfriend who lives in America and this picture of him is totally not something I just found online and saved onto my phone. 

[Carm_88]

21 hours ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

Just for perspective, a significant portion of the female population throughout the history of the world and even into modern times in other countries has had their first sexual experience on their wedding night. Obviously the human race has continued. It's not as impossible as some posters are making it out to be.

My family tree says you are quite wrong. I've seen a vast number of babies born at a perfectly normal weight 5-6 months after the wedding. My paternal grandmother takes the cake. My aunt was born 2 months after their wedding, and she was a whopping 7 pounds. Funny about that...! 

Like teens sneaking around in a car, if there is a will for sex, there will be a way to have sex!  

[Ivycoveredtower]

50 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

My family tree says you are quite wrong. I've seen a vast number of babies born at a perfectly normal weight 5-6 months after the wedding. My paternal grandmother takes the cake. My aunt was born 2 months after their wedding, and she was a whopping 7 pounds. Funny about that...! 

Like teens sneaking around in a car, if there is a will for sex, there will be a way to have sex!  

my grandma was pregnant with my dad on her wedding day and had a few other kids previously that were not her first husbands.  her mother was also pregnant on her wedding. day yep did the math on that one when I saw great grandma's wedding date next to great aunts birthday. there was no way she wasn't. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

2 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

Yeah the fact was that i only see him sometimes at the bar and we barely go over a goodafternoon or goodbay is not even someone near my age, He could be my father! I was really embarased and a little bit hurt. I  could understand a friend or someone maybe closer but a basically stranger??

I would have told him to take a flying fuck at himself!  But hey I am an admitted big mouth.

honestly what planet do some of these people come from.

i am so sorry you were hurt,let it roll off you like water off a ducks back.    

[Crazy Enough to Join]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

My family tree says you are quite wrong. I've seen a vast number of babies born at a perfectly normal weight 5-6 months after the wedding. My paternal grandmother takes the cake. My aunt was born 2 months after their wedding, and she was a whopping 7 pounds. Funny about that...! 

Like teens sneaking around in a car, if there is a will for sex, there will be a way to have sex!  

That's only a matter of decades ago. I'm talking 1000 years ago. Or 2000. Even today, in many countries  women are still honor killed if they aren't a virgin on their wedding night.

[Carm_88]

15 minutes ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

That's only a matter of decades ago. I'm talking 1000 years ago. Or 2000. Even today, in many countries  women are still honor killed if they aren't a virgin on their wedding night.

I'm glad that you think that my now deceased grandparents were born decades ago. My grandfather would be 100 and my grandmother 95. 

And I'm not talking decades ago, I'm talking a couple of centuries. So it's not a recent thing, it's been happening for as long as people have been having sex. Marriage only really became a thing when the Catholic Church made a rise to power, so that men could be sure that children were their own.  

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I'm glad that you think that my now deceased grandparents were born decades ago. My grandfather would be 100 and my grandmother 95. 

And I'm not talking decades ago, I'm talking a couple of centuries. So it's not a recent thing, it's been happening for as long as people have been having sex. Marriage only really became a thing when the Catholic Church made a rise to power, so that men could be sure that children were their own.  

and Cleopatra had kids with Ceaser and Marc Antony and that was way more then 2000 years ago. plus in the puritan  times even with all there strict rules many brides went to the alter already pregnant. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

15 minutes ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

That's only a matter of decades ago. I'm talking 1000 years ago. Or 2000. Even today, in many countries  women are still honor killed if they aren't a virgin on their wedding night.

You haven't read Sappho poetry I guess. Categorically affirming that women had less sexual experience "throughout history" is bullshit. History amounts to a long time and an endless variety of cultures. Sweeping statements like that are bullshit.

Also you are missing what people mean. The mechanics of reproduction aren't that difficult to enact, not much experience required really. So the fact that we didn't get extinct doesn't reflect at all on the amount of experience or lack thereof that all the women in all the cultures in all the history had.

10 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Marriage only really became a thing when the Catholic Church made a rise to power, so that men could be sure that children were their own.

Actually the institution of marriage as a legally binding union much predates Catholicism. Marriage was a very important social institution in ancient Rome, ancient Greece and ancient Egypt.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

5 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

Sooo if the wedding will be from mid May to early june how many pregnant bridsmaid there will be at SiRen  wedding? 2? 3? (Kendra, Jinger, jessa?) And who will be in the wedding party? All' the Duggar sister? With who is Lauren cose? I guest there will also be her mom like with Kendra 

any ideas? 

I think it would be awesome if NONE of the sisters were in the bridal party. No ill will, just that Lauren picks her own friends and family. Maybe some of the Duggar grandkids as flower girl or ring bearer? Meredith and Spurge perhaps?

[Honeysuckle]

9 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

And there were unchaperoned buggy rides! I think JB&M have enough sense to know that saying “Those Little House books are too racy for our kids!” would have marked them as officially insane. They’ve also said that they can handle a single premarital kiss (in the movie Sergeant York) by reminding the kids that they don’t approve. It’s possible that their Little House set was “missing” These Happy Golden Years. All of that being said, I don’t think any of them were particularly into the books. None of the kids mentioned them as favorites, and they’ve never taken field trips to the home sites, which are relatively close to them. You were talking about the TV show, which bugs the hell out of me with its inaccuracy, so I can’t speak to whether it would be Duggar-appropriate. I expect that one kiss upon engagement late in the series would be cool.

I'm not sure the Duggars are allowed to watch every episode of the Little House show. I mean there is that episode where Sylvia gets raped by a mime.