Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

 

Fuck me running

 

Ok. I laughed out loud and woke the cat. This is MY saying. Lmao

[feministxtian]

3 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Ok. I laughed out loud and woke the cat. This is MY saying. Lmao

See??? Separated at birth!!! 

Ok...with my 2nd and 3rd kid, I never made it to the weekly visits. With #2 (military hospital birth), they had lifeflight on standby in case he had problems (36 weeker). They weren't set up for a newborn in trouble. They farmed out all preemies to the local children's hospital. With #3, he was born in a hospital with an NICU. HOWEVER...my OB did a quick U/S the day I went into labor (the morning before he was born) to make sure he was head down and was over 5lbs. If he had been head up...off for a c-section like within a couple of hours. If he had been less than 5lbs, off to the hospital to try to stop my labor (he was a 36 weeker too). My OB told me that if I got pregnant again she'd put me in and induce me because there was NO chance I'd make it to the hospital in labor (we lived a good 45 min from the hospital). Last baby was fairly quick and I tended to have very productive early labors...and I didn't catch on until I was 6-7 cm dilated and by then baby would show up w/in 30 minutes. 

[jozina]

Preface - I'm a doctor who spent several years training to be an obstetrician. I then switched to a different field and now seem to only use that information when talking about Duggars on here.

- I'd be my imaginary pony that the midwife mistook the baby's position for one who was head down and completely engaged.  I've seen it happen with inexperienced midwives and doctors a few times. If the baby's head is all the way in the pelvis then you can kind of feel the shoulders, but no head.  A baby's butt can kind of feel the same.  If you don't check via internal that it is indeed a head and don't realise the big round hard floaty thing up top is a head then you can make that mistake.

-A full term baby turning around is very unusual, but it can happen. If it has been turning frequently right up until then (ie has an unstable lie) it happens often, but usually those babies have been delivered by 39 weeks because of the risk of neonatal death or stillbirth should a woman go into labour when it's in a particular position.

-Most breech vaginal deliveries are okay, though I'd want to do it in a hospital where I could be in theatre in five minutes if it went wrong. If I was planning on having as many babies as Rufus gave me I'd try for a vaginal breech rather than have a planned c-section.  There are three types of breech lie - frank (legs straight up with feet around the ears, which is usually successful with vaginal delivery and relatively low risk), compete (baby sitting cross legged - more risky) and footling (foot as the presenting part and fairly high risk of the baby dying).

-Some women can have two c-sections safely, some can have ten. It's very individual.

-And for Rufus's sake, these women better get gestational diabetes screening. Yes some women just make big babies but given how many they have I really hope they get screened.

And I'd like to thank the Duggars for reminding me of all the reasons I am glad I pulled out of obstetrics at the last moment. I do kind of miss it, but I imagine being the doctor on when someone rocks up in this sort of situation and suddenly don't miss it at all,

[mango_fandango]

What’s so fucking bizarre is that Michelle had all hospital births, except for Jinger and Joseph. Where on Earth did this homebirth thing come from??? I kind of expected Jill to try for homebirths, she seemed like the type. I wasn’t so sure about Jessa. Since Joy is close to Jill, I’m not surprised she wanted to attempt a homebirth. Jinger I don’t know so much about, she may well go for a hospital birth, or a birthing centre if there’s one nearby. No clue about Kendra. She’s young and likely impressionable, and I wonder if she’ll want to go for a homebirth or if she’s seen what happened to her sisters-in-law and is somewhat worried. 

As far as I can tell, the married Bates girls (including Whitney here) have all gone for hospital births, although I think Alyssa went with a birthing centre. They seem to be much more sensible when it comes to pregnancy; they go for ultrasounds AFAIK. 

[Paigerin2]

5 hours ago, Fjrocks said:

      Just want to say,  I am yet again amazed at how incredibly fair and slow to judge the folks here are.   You guys are still using asterisks or making qualifying statements, like "it appears," or " based on limited information."  The Duggars are not even remotely as generous as FJ.  FJ may be tough, but you guys are very fair. 
   In my mind,  I think there is enough evidence to say the Duggar girls do not receive quality prenatal care from Jill's trampling through Zika areas to botched home births.   I want to pull my hair out and scream, "!*@# you Duggars!  Stop preaching about abortion and mucking in other's people's business when you DO NOT EVEN CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOUR UNBORN BABIES TO GET THEM PROPER MEDICAL CARE."  *
* My rage is based on limited, alleged or partial information available via a dramatized reality show. 
   

I can't like this enough! Thank you! What is so "ungodly" about having prenatal care. The midwife should have known when she arrived that this baby was breech and not head down and in position! Jill couldn't tell the position by external exam? Joy couldn't tell that the kicks were low instead of high?? Just pisses me off. Get prenatal care before someone dies.

[Sky with diamonds]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I'm not seeing Jinger birthing at home.

I hope you are right. 

[justmy2cents]

13 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

As far as I can tell, the married Bates girls (including Whitney here) have all gone for hospital births

Whitney found out that Kaci was in breech position.  Dr. Vick had her come in to attempt to flip the baby.  She had an epidural and if the version worked they would induce right away so that the baby would be born before getting a chance to flip again.  If it hadn't worked she would get a c-section.  Luckily it worked and Whitney was able to avoid a c-section. It doesn't make any sense that the Duggar daughters don't see the advantage in getting better prenatal care (I'm assuming they don't get anything close to adequate care.)

[JordynDarby5]

Another home birth attempt, and it ended up in hospital. Once again most likely no prenatal care and a midwife who didn't notice the baby was breech. At least whoever that was got Joy to the hospital. I'll never understand why they take risks.  Prenatal care and a competent qualified OB or midwife. Especially after Jill's both went wrong and Jessa's went wrong.           

[marmalade]

Did Joy even get a botique ultrasound? They wanted to be surprised with the baby's sex, so in their minds, was there really any need to have one? 

[Kittikatz]

I think that @MargaretElliott is correct that a lot of people in the modern world don't understand the perils of childbirth. I will never forget reading a letter to the editor in our local paper. It was written by the mother of a baby who had died within minutes of its birth. She was angry at what she saw as the incompetence of the hospital, her doctors, nurses and the world at large, not because anyone mishandled the birth, but because "nobody had ever told her that babies could die."

It kind of blew me back because I can't fathom anyone not knowing that anyone and anything can die at any moment, but maybe we're so used to living charmed lives that death isn't discussed or considered much outside of a palliative or critical care unit.

It's almost like people feel entitled to a happy outcome to all their endeavours.

[FreeStyle]

When I had my first, I was in the hospital and the nurse checked me and stated that the baby was breech.  I was very shocked and upset as this was the first I heard of it.  She had the doctor rush in as he was surprised as well since I had just been to his office the day before.  He checked and said the nurse was an idiot,  (In those exact words) and left.  I was assigned a new nurse, and I was happy about that because the same woman kept telling me how great it would all be if I got in the stupid jetted tub even though I told her I hated water and wanted no part of it.  She told me if I got in the tub I could get an epidural.  So, I got in the damn tub, said "Ok, I want my epidural" and I got out.  Why the hell I would want to sit in a bathtub while dying in pain is beyond me.  

[nastyhobbitses]

7 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I wonder if they'll start to reconsider home births now. Or at least more competent prenatal care.* It's entirely possible/likely that Izzy, Sam, and Gideon would've had to have been born by C-section no matter what, but sometimes proper medical care can catch/address things and improve the chances of a vaginal delivery. Also, they've gotten lucky so far. They're rolling the dice every time they eschew proper prenatal care and attempt a home birth with a lay midwife. 

*I know we don't know for sure what kind of prenatal care they get, but all signs point to questionable lay midwifery with maybe an ultrasound or two from a boutique place just to find out the sex. With their history of huge babies and birth complications, this worries me.

They won't. It's not their MO. Michelle is sobbing uncontrollably in the laundry room and screaming to God for help? Knock her up 13 more times and mooch off friends and family and whore the kids out to network television to subsidize this choice! Josh is exhibiting worrying sexual behavior and preying on his younger sisters? Just send him to do some forced labor for a while and victim-blame the girls! Jill getting into Day 3 of labor? Eh, maybe we should go to the hospital now. And go to an area known for having Zika virus when she's pregnant with #2. 

One day their luck will run out. And even if the way their luck runs out is (god forbid) a dead baby, dead daughter, permanent disability for either or both, or any other horrible consequence, they still won't stop or rethink anything. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

OT but I have a friend of a friend who is Quiverfull with 11 kids. Her birth with #8 and 9 were twins and she had a C section. The doctors mentioned she had a thin uterine window because she had her babies back-to-back every year a la Michelle Duggar. She got pregnant with #10 within a few months and gave birth but was told her uterine window was VERY thin. She did NOT spend anytime waiting to get pregnant with #11, despite what doctors said. Her uterus ruptured and she almost died in child birth. She had to have an emergency hysterectomy. 

I'm sorry your friend almost died, but I'm glad she finally got the medical care she needed.

I don't know much about any quiverfull groups in my area, but we have a cult whose members will not use any medical care at all. Their goal is not to have "an army for Jesus", but because they don't see doctors or any other medical professionals, larger families are common. In a case like your friend's, the mother would certainly die.

1 hour ago, MargaretElliott said:

I don't begrudge anyone wanting a home birth (as long as it's done knowledgeably and safely), but I do begrudge someone potentially endangering their life and the life of their child for the sake of an ideal.

Sadly, members of the cult that I mentioned above routinely risk their lives and the lives of their children, and many of their children don't live to adulthood. No one is completely sure how many, because it is 100% legal here for parents to let their children die because they relied solely on faith healing. At least the Duggars don't seem to be doing that.

[luv2laugh]

2 hours ago, jozina said:

Preface - I'm a doctor who spent several years training to be an obstetrician. I then switched to a different field and now seem to only use that information when talking about Duggars on here.

- I'd be my imaginary pony that the midwife mistook the baby's position for one who was head down and completely engaged.  I've seen it happen with inexperienced midwives and doctors a few times. If the baby's head is all the way in the pelvis then you can kind of feel the shoulders, but no head.  A baby's butt can kind of feel the same.  If you don't check via internal that it is indeed a head and don't realise the big round hard floaty thing up top is a head then you can make that mistake.

-A full term baby turning around is very unusual, but it can happen. If it has been turning frequently right up until then (ie has an unstable lie) it happens often, but usually those babies have been delivered by 39 weeks because of the risk of neonatal death or stillbirth should a woman go into labour when it's in a particular position.

-Most breech vaginal deliveries are okay, though I'd want to do it in a hospital where I could be in theatre in five minutes if it went wrong. If I was planning on having as many babies as Rufus gave me I'd try for a vaginal breech rather than have a planned c-section.  There are three types of breech lie - frank (legs straight up with feet around the ears, which is usually successful with vaginal delivery and relatively low risk), compete (baby sitting cross legged - more risky) and footling (foot as the presenting part and fairly high risk of the baby dying).

-Some women can have two c-sections safely, some can have ten. It's very individual.

-And for Rufus's sake, these women better get gestational diabetes screening. Yes some women just make big babies but given how many they have I really hope they get screened.

And I'd like to thank the Duggars for reminding me of all the reasons I am glad I pulled out of obstetrics at the last moment. I do kind of miss it, but I imagine being the doctor on when someone rocks up in this sort of situation and suddenly don't miss it at all,

OT but what did you end up doing your residency in?

[Iamtheway]

20 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Bacon is the gateway meat.

We don’t eat meat or poultry. We eat fish, egg and dairy though so not real vegetarians. My husband also makes an exception for bacon because it’s just so delicious. He eats it maybe once or twice a month. 

The only meat I miss is the ham my mum makes for christmas. And that’s more the tradition then the taste. 

[Toothfairy]

Because these kids are in competitionwith each other. Home births gives you more points 

[AtlanticTug]

I think it depends on where you are but here OBs routinely do growth scans on everybody at 32w. The growth scans become less and less accurate towards the end but you’re still in the 15% or so ballpark. If you have complications like IUGR or diabetes you will start them earlier and have them regularly. But I have heard from a bunch of friends in the US that insurance won’t cover scans after the anatomy scan unless there is some pressing medical need. 

Regardless, after this many Duggar babies being born the size of Godzilla and 4/5 births at home having gone awry with a c section rate of 60%, the next Duggar daughter who attempts the same is a complete negligent moron who should be publicly shamed. I’m sorry but enough is enough. I give a pass to Anna who has a proven birth canal and 5 uneventful births and Kendra who is not of Duggar stock so we don’t know how that could go. The Duggar daughters are just beyond ridiculous at this point.

Also the rate of success of VBACs is highly dependent on how long you’ve had since you’re last pregnancy. In terms of spacing, Jill did everything right but still didn’t work out. Joy I’m sorry to say seems too stupid not o get pregnant essentially immediately thus sealing her fate (not a bad thing necessarily in terms of limiting her family size but bad for her body).

[freethemall]

6 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

Whitney found out that Kaci was in breech position.  Dr. Vick had her come in to attempt to flip the baby.  She had an epidural and if the version worked they would induce right away so that the baby would be born before getting a chance to flip again.  If it hadn't worked she would get a c-section.  Luckily it worked and Whitney was able to avoid a c-section. It doesn't make any sense that the Duggar daughters don't see the advantage in getting better prenatal care (I'm assuming they don't get anything close to adequate care.)

I remember in that episode being shocked that Whitney, on her second child, did not know what breech was,was totally unfamiliar with the word. The Bates may go to hospitals, but I think none of these girls go to birthing classes which prepare you for all possibilities.

[freethemall]

9 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I'll never understand people who avoid c-sections and hospital births like the plague... It's 2018 for fucks sake, take advantage of modern science!

People like Queen Victoria took formol to release the pain and were scared to death of dying in childbirth cause it was so common! Now it seems like everyone and their mama (fundie or not) are all about suffering and risking their lives by not using prenatal care and having a homebirth at all costs. It's freaking ridiculous.

Having a damn c-section and a hospital birth is not the end of the world, do what it needs to be done to be freaking safe.

I'm glad Joy and Gideon are good, hopefully Jinger and Kendra are taking care of themselves and their babies.

All right, devil's advocate time.

There are a lot of issues in the medical system around birthing that have gotten more attention lately (almost 100% due to the documentary Business of Being Born, also born again popularity for Ina May Gaskin's books and philosophies that are highlighted in the doc). I myself watched that documentary and overnight became completely anti- hospital birth and desperate for a home birth, though it wasn't financially realistic since my insurance wouldn't pay for it. You think about being in the comfort of your home, moving around as much as you want, bathing, and generally being trusted to follow your instincts rather than being rushed to deliver before the doctor's shift ends and they pump you up with unnecessary pitocin because youre not laboring fast enough which often ends up with a miserably painful labor and c-section. I can only imagine that if I'd seen my sister in law have several successful homebirths and my sister have 1-2 (since overall Spurge came out ok, just not Jessa) I'd be even more convinced to try and see the births that ended up as c-sections as the exception to the rule. 

What the Duggar girls haven't realized yet is what I did - you can have both, especially if you're able to speak up for yourself (though I doubt they are).  I had a hospital birth with a doula and a birth plan where I insisted on eating halfway, spending 40 minutes in a shower, having intermittent monitoring, and pushing as long as I could to avoid a c-section (see my previous story somewhere on these boards of pushing for 8 hrs). But in the end I was happy to have the medical help and didn't feel the negativity Ina May and Ricki Lake led me to believe I'd face, save for one bad nurse that confirmed why I was worried about a hospital birth. 

In the end, I'm happy I had a low risk delivery  but i can see the thinking these girls come from that birth is natural and if everything goes right (big if!) then it doesn't have to be a medical experience.  

Hope that makes sense, it's early and I'm breastfeeding while I type 

[SorenaJ]

I feel bad for being right about the birth prediction "hospital because she pulled a Jill". 

[HermioneSparrow]

17 minutes ago, freethemall said:

All right, devil's advocate time.

There are a lot of issues in the medical system around birthing that have gotten more attention lately (almost 100% due to the documentary Business of Being Born, also born again popularity for Ina May Gaskin's books and philosophies that are highlighted in the doc). I myself watched that documentary and overnight became completely anti- hospital birth and desperate for a home birth, though it wasn't financially realistic since my insurance wouldn't pay for it. You think about being in the comfort of your home, moving around as much as you want, bathing, and generally being trusted to follow your instincts rather than being rushed to deliver before the doctor's shift ends and they pump you up with unnecessary pitocin because youre not laboring fast enough which often ends up with a miserably painful labor and c-section. I can only imagine that if I'd seen my sister in law have several successful homebirths and my sister have 1-2 (since overall Spurge came out ok, just not Jessa) I'd be even more convinced to try and see the births that ended up as c-sections as the exception to the rule. 

What the Duggar girls haven't realized yet is what I did - you can have both, especially if you're able to speak up for yourself (though I doubt they are).  I had a hospital birth with a doula and a birth plan where I insisted on eating halfway, spending 40 minutes in a shower, having intermittent monitoring, and pushing as long as I could to avoid a c-section (see my previous story somewhere on these boards of pushing for 8 hrs). But in the end I was happy to have the medical help and didn't feel the negativity Ina May and Ricki Lake led me to believe I'd face, save for one bad nurse that confirmed why I was worried about a hospital birth. 

In the end, I'm happy I had a low risk delivery  but i can see the thinking these girls come from that birth is natural and if everything goes right (big if!) then it doesn't have to be a medical experience.  

Hope that makes sense, it's early and I'm breastfeeding while I type 

Fair enough, I see your point and completely agree. I just became frustrated at the Duggar girls and this new age trend of hating hospitals and medical procedures but I get it. The Duggars at this point though... Are just plain stupid, they've seen how homebirths are not for them but keep pushing it, it's ridiculous.

I come from a family of healthcare workers, my mum is a RN and I just started Medical school... So I got a little defensive of my people, lol sorry.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Fair enough, I see your point and completely agree. I just became frustrated at the Duggar girls and this new age trend of hating hospitals and medical procedures but I get it. The Duggars at this point though... Are just plain stupid, they've seen how homebirths are not for them but keep pushing it, it's ridiculous.

I come from a family of healthcare workers, my mum is a RN and I just started Medical school... So I got a little defensive of my people, lol sorry.

It's not just the Duggars. There are other quiverfull fundies doing this. Another FJ fundie  named Hannah Mandarino is not getting a single ultrasound during her pregnancy and will most likely home birth. It's horrible that some of these ignorant fundies are so extremely prolife but won't even get the best care for pregnancy. 

[ophelia]

39 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

I feel bad for being right about the birth prediction "hospital because she pulled a Jill". 

I predicted the same and I'd love to be wrong about this. I sure hope Austin and Joy learned their lesson.

[HarleyQuinn]

I really hope 20 hours was from the first sign of a contraction and not 20 hours of active labor before Jill's dumbass told her to go to the hospital.

That seems like a long time to not realize a baby is breach. My midwife checked that every single time I was in during those last few weeks. Of course, I had a real midwife in a hospital but still. 

Kendra, Jinger, start with the hospital. 

[Jenn The Heathen]

I’m curious to see how much baby Vuolo weighs before saying there’s something genetic going on with these giant Duggar babies.  Jinger seems like she’s more active and health conscious so if she has a giant baby, there’s possibly something in the genes.

My husband’s paternal grandmother had 8 giant babies.  The biggest was nearly 12 lbs.  My husband was over 10 lbs.  With both my pregnancies, I was hyper vigilant about asking the doctor roughly how big my babies would be.  Fortunately for me, they took after my side of the family and weighed in at 6 lbs 10 Oz and 7 lbs 11 Oz.  My point is, if I was Joy and had sisters who had big babies, I’d be constantly concerned about the size of the baby.

I think it’s very probable that the 2nd generation Duggars don’t think thorough prenatal care is really necessary.  God will take care of our special blessing, blah blah blah.

ETA: And someone totally should have caught the breech position.  Near the end, there’s not a whole lot of room for a baby to flip, especially a 10 lb one.