Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[Snarkasarus Rex]

37 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Who was the midwife?  

How hard is it to know if the baby is breach?  

When my Sporty (OB) and my Baby (CNM) were almost due, they would check to make sure they were head down.  It took all of a minute.  I realize they use lay midwives, but it’s surprising that a *competent* midwife didn’t know he was breech beforehand.  If the midwife wasn’t sure,  she should have recommended she see someone more skilled.  

Of course, this assumes Joy saw the midwife for her prenatal care, and the midwife was competent.  Those might be bad assumptions.

[Denim Jumper]

10 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I couldn't care less about whether a child is born "naturally" or by c-section, but I do find myself worried about the home birthing trend. I know the whole "only the bad stories make the news" argument, but I have heard of way too many unsuccessful/dangerous home births for my taste. And even if it ends in a healthy mom and baby, I don't understand the appeal of laboring for days in excruciating pain while hoping something disastrous doesn't happen. I just watched Maddie's home birth on Sister Wives, and omg. The girl was in labor for like 4 days and was vomiting and delirious from pain in the bathtub. I have never been so confident in my decision to have a epidurals one day.

I know that plenty of women have nice home births, but a first time mother? With a clearly enormous baby?? And a family history of difficult births???? That would scare the hell out of me. Even Michelle needed serious interventions with her first few births...Josh's birth required forceps, and Jana/John David were a c-section. The Duggar girls just don't have good home birth potential. I hope Jinger breaks the trend.

And even then, how many of the bad stories even make the news? My sister’s home birth last month ended with her baby being stillborn; the rest of the world will never know unless they decide to go public with their story. 

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

When my Sporty (OB) and my Baby (CNM) were almost due, they would check to make sure they were head down.  It took all of a minute.  I realize they use lay midwives, but it’s surprising that a *competent* midwife didn’t know he was breech beforehand.  If the midwife wasn’t sure,  she should have recommended she see someone more skilled.  

Of course, this assumes Joy saw the midwife for her prenatal care, and the midwife was competent.  Those might be bad assumptions.

Thats what I thought.  When I was waiting for LO to be born no one mentioned it either way, but I assumed the OB would let me know if there was a problem.  It seems like Joy's midwife should have know?  Right?

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

I realize they use lay midwives, but it’s surprising that a *competent* midwife didn’t know he was breech beforehand.  If the midwife wasn’t sure,  she should have recommended she see someone more skilled.

What gets me is that this is almost exactly what happened with Jill. Huge baby, long labour at home, and then suddenly, "surprise!" The baby is breech and needs to be born by C-section. Only difference is that Israel's position was only discovered after Jill had (finally) decided to go to the hospital. I remember Jill tried to say that Israel must have flipped during labour. 

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

What gets me is that this is almost exactly what happened with Jill. Huge baby, long labour at home, and then suddenly, "surprise!" The baby is breech and needs to be born by C-section. Only difference is that Israel's position was only discovered after Jill had (finally) decided to go to the hospital. I remember Jill tried to say that Israel must have flipped during labour. 

Well and about 50 hours more of labor... and fetal distress (IIR)

 

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, Denim Jumper said:

And even then, how many of the bad stories even make the news? My sister’s home birth last month ended with her baby being stillborn; the rest of the world will never know unless they decide to go public with their story. 

I'm so sorry that happened.

And it's true, a lot of the bad outcomes aren't making the news. I've seen home birth end horribly twice in my own social circle (and I'm talking about extremely bad outcomes like a dead mother, not just close calls which I'm sure have happened too without me hearing about it) and those cases didn't make the news.

[SassyPants]

So another breech presentation? Ok-

10 lb babies do not readily or easily flip positions near term...I think these ladies need better midwives and prenatal care.

 

And sometimes people say that the baby was breech- YES, I know people (yes, more than 1) who have said such when the baby was not breech but was born by c-section for other reasons.

And the c section rate for first time mothers in the US is nearly 30%, so the Duggars +Anna are right on target with the average...[10 births and 3 C/Ss]

[bananabread]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

What gets me is that this is almost exactly what happened with Jill. Huge baby, long labour at home, and then suddenly, "surprise!" The baby is breech and needs to be born by C-section.

A girl I knew from college had an attempted home birth like this. The midwife checked her, said everything was great, and she took castor oil to induce labor. Fast forward 12 hours, midwife comes over to check her and "discovers" baby is breech. The mother's belly shape hadn't changed at all. The baby was always breech, and the midwife completely missed it. The mother was PISSED and ended up needing an emergency c-section.

Midwives make mistakes, even real midwives. And you have to make it to the hospital to fix them.

[justoneoftwo]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

So another breech presentation? Ok-

10 lb babies do not readily or easily flip positions near term...I think these ladies need better midwives and prenatal care.

 

And sometimes people say that the baby was breech- YES, I know people (yes, more than 1) who have said such when the baby was not breech but was born by c-section for other reasons.

And the c section rate for first time mothers in the US is nearly 30%, so the Duggars +Anna are right on target with the average...[10 births and 3 C/Ss]

But thats 30% for first time mothers, the Duggars + Anna are at 50% for first time mothers . . . 

 

Also, for hospitals in Arkansas the rate is 26%, nation wide its 25.8% (for low risk births, which these might not have been). https://www.statista.com/statistics/800589/us-hospital-c-section-rates-by-state/

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

But thats 30% for first time mothers, the Duggars + Anna are at 50% for first time mothers . . . 

And 67% if you just consider the Duggar girls, which is a relevant grouping due to a possible genetic trend of having difficult births.

(And again, even Jessa had a really dangerous experience with her first birth! That's 100% of Duggar girls so far requiring hospitalization with or after their first birth.)

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

But thats 30% for first time mothers, the Duggars + Anna are at 50% for first time mothers . . . 

I knew someone would mention this.

Frankly, I'm not sure I buy the last minute flipping of 10 lb babies- 

There is no shame in a young woman not being able to birth a 10lb baby at home without medication- Michelle certainly didn't do such.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

4 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

What gets me is that this is almost exactly what happened with Jill. Huge baby, long labour at home, and then suddenly, "surprise!" The baby is breech and needs to be born by C-section. Only difference is that Israel's position was only discovered after Jill had (finally) decided to go to the hospital. I remember Jill tried to say that Israel must have flipped during labour. 

The OB/CNM on duty would have examined Jill as soon as she arrived and discovered Izzy’s position.  Yet Jill labored an additional 20 hours after she arrived at the hospital before the ‘surprise’.  Why? Her story does not add up.  

[Tatar-tot]

I am getting loss here - did Joy end up with a c-section?

[Kangaroo]

4 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

I am getting loss here - did Joy end up with a c-section?

Yes. She was in labour at home for 20 hours, before the midwife discovered the baby was breech and sent her to the hospital. She ended up having a c-section.

[2manyKidzzz]

5 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

I am getting loss here - did Joy end up with a c-section?

Yes. TLC to go has it. 20 hrs labor at home then midwife said it was breech and off they went to the hospital. 

[Sky with diamonds]

I was hoping Joy would have had Gideon in the hospital, and no attempt at home birth. After Jill's experience with Izzy and Jessa's experience with Spurgy...I still can't get that out of my mind.

Hope Joy is recovering well. I can't see the TLC Me clips, is it just me? Maybe blocked for me in Canada.

[Tatar-tot]

5 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Yes. TLC to go has it. 20 hrs labor at home then midwife said it was breech and off they went to the hospital. 

Their midwife is a moron.  It sounds like she earned her degree off the back of a comic book ad.  A real midwife is the equivalent of a nurse prationier.  A sonogram should have been done at her last appoint if there was ANY question about the position of the baby.  How on earth can a professional confuse a butt with a head?  

In most states if you don’t have health insurance CHIP kicks in.  There is no excuse for Austin to risk his wife’s life like this.  

When are these Duggar girls going to wise and get real prenatal care?  When one of them goes to see the Lord?

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

I'm not sure if I am looking in the right place for it or not, but when I click on the video, it tells me I need to sign in or something. Is that usual for TLC website?

[karen77]

20 hrs seems like a long time to labor before realizing the baby is breach. unless they are counting from the first barely there contraction (in which case, i must have labored for 24 hrs with my son, but for the first 12, I was taking my daughter to swim lessons, going to the store, going to Target and lifting said daughter, not having a clue I was in labor (thought it was Braxton Hicks, just more often than it had been)) To me, that is just exaggerating it.

NOW, if she said 20 hrs ACTIVE labor, then yeah, the MW was dumb.

[SassyPants]

There is all this talk of genetics.

So let's look at Michelle's babies- let's throw out the largest (Jessa, near 10lbs and Josie 1 lb)

For the babies that were born via the TEVVVEE times: IIRC, Jackson, Hannie and Jordyn all weighed less than 8lbs at birth, and Jenny was in the 8.5 lb range. Michelle has never mentioned any of the others being huge.

So far the Duggar generation 2 ladies have birthed: 2 , 9 lb -10ozers, 1 #9-11 ozer and 1 >than 10lbs- IMO, this is d/t poor prenatal care and education. The genetics does not support these huge babies.

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

There is all this talk of genetics.

So let's look at Michelle's babies- let's throw out the largest (Jessa, near 10lbs and Josie 1 lb)

For the babies that were born via the TEVVVEE times: IIRC, Jackson, Hannie and Jordyn all weighed less than 8lbs at birth, and Jenny was in the 8.5 lb range. Michelle has never mentioned any of the others being huge.

So far the Duggar generation 2 ladies have birthed: 2 , 9 lb -10ozers, 1 #9-11 ozer and 1 >than 10lbs- IMO, this is d/t poor prenatal care and education. The genetics does not support these huge babies.

Forget Henry, 8-11!

[Million Children For Jesus]

I’m confused. My babies went head down early and stayed low, so I’m ignorant about breech babies. I thought breech babies were ones that never went head down in the first place. I had no idea a baby could flip back to breech after being head down. Is this a common occurrence? How much time does it take for a baby to do a full 180? Is this what Jill and Joy have implied happened? 

Also, thank you FJ for curing me of any desire to ever be pregnant again. 

[Sister Mozz]

As a former fundie, I grew up in the home birth culture. Most of my siblings were born at home, and I was present at a number of the deliveries. Many of my mom's friends had multiple babies at home and I heard their birth stories. I also know several people who are doulas or midwives - I'm talking the legitimate kind who work in certified state-approved birthing centers. Out of dozens and dozens of home birth stories I am familiar with, i have never once heard of a midwife being surprised by a breech presentation. They always keep an eye on that throughout the latter stages of pregnancy! Like someone said above, a head pressing against the cervix is very different from a butt or a knee or an elbow - and standard prenatal care would catch this! If there was any question in the weeks leading up to the due date, an ultrasound would have been given and if the baby was indeed breech then a doctor would have been brought in immediately. The doc would probably be okay with the mom-to-be doing exercises or different things to try to turn the baby in the weeks leading up to labor, but they would continue following up with ultrasounds and planning for a c-section unless the baby clearly did turn.

 

I am so angry reading stories like the ones from Jill and Joy. A home birth or birthing center birth with qualified midwives would be my first choice if I ever have kids, and these guys make it look way more dangerous than it has to be. 

1 minute ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

I’m confused. My babies went head down early and stayed low, so I’m ignorant about breech babies. I thought breech babies were ones that never went head down in the first place. I had no idea a baby could flip back to breech after being head down. Is this a common occurrence? How much time does it take for a baby to do a full 180? Is this what Jill and Joy have implied happened? 

Also, thank you FJ for curing me of any desire to ever be pregnant again. 

It is rare, but babies can turn breech even if they have been head down and even if they are full-term. This happened to a friend of mine who was carrying twins - when she went to be induced, Baby A had turned transverse after she'd been head down for quite a while. The doctor allowed them a few hours to do exercises to turn Baby A, and it worked and my friend delivered both babies vaginally. Proper prenatal care and monitoring makes such a difference!

[melon]

Well,I just looked up the maximum number of C sections...they say it depends on the scarring and if the uterus?Thins...my mothers thinned...4 was her max,but some women can have 7-8 safely!!!!!Repeat C sections.I thought it was 3 or 4.I seriously doubt Joy and Jill will have even half of what their parents had.My OB-Gyn refuses to do VBAC because he saw a uterus rupture.I believe then,an emergency hysterectomy is needed.

[Fjrocks]

      Just want to say,  I am yet again amazed at how incredibly fair and slow to judge the folks here are.   You guys are still using asterisks or making qualifying statements, like "it appears," or " based on limited information."  The Duggars are not even remotely as generous as FJ.  FJ may be tough, but you guys are very fair. 

   In my mind,  I think there is enough evidence to say the Duggar girls do not receive quality prenatal care from Jill's trampling through Zika areas to botched home births.   I want to pull my hair out and scream, "!*@# you Duggars!  Stop preaching about abortion and mucking in other's people's business when you DO NOT EVEN CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOUR UNBORN BABIES TO GET THEM PROPER MEDICAL CARE."  *

* My rage is based on limited, alleged or partial information available via a dramatized reality show. 

   

[AtlanticTug]

As soon as we saw the pic of Joy in the hospital bed I called it. I’ve had repeat x-sections and she totally looked like she was post c-section, complete with multiple blankets over her (you can bet some of them were warming blankets after the OR which is cold and to deal with the post-spinal shakes). And many people jumped all over me about how she couldn’t sit the way she did or this or that. I never questioned it.