Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[singsingsing]

Whether Joy can still have 20 kids will mostly depend on how her next couple births go. Michelle gave birth to Jana and JD via C-section, and then didn't have another C-section until Jackson. She then went on to have a few more VBACS and a couple more C-sections.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

It was a huge 10 lb baby.  I've been doing research and apparently, if you are laboring naturally and tensing up from the pain, it can stall labor and cause stress on the baby. If she were in the hospital and were open to some pain medication or an epidural, it could have allowed her pelvic muscles to relax  and progress to a possible vaginal delivery.

It could be a blessing in disguise. With as fundie Joy and her husband are, if she had births like Jessa or Anna, she could've ended up with more babies than Michelle since she has started much younger.

Gideon was breech, so vaginal delivery is just not a good idea in that situation.

[luv2laugh]

@singsingsing It's trickier, from what I've heard, if the first was born via C-section. Many have successful VBACs though. It becomes far more difficult if the VBAC fails which is the situation Jill is in now.  Jill's better off waiting a good 2 years to give her uterus time to heal and then attempt a VBA2C, which can happen but isn't common. Hopefully, she goes to the hospital next time.

OT but I have a friend of a friend who is Quiverfull with 11 kids. Her birth with #8 and 9 were twins and she had a C section. The doctors mentioned she had a thin uterine window because she had her babies back-to-back every year a la Michelle Duggar. She got pregnant with #10 within a few months and gave birth but was told her uterine window was VERY thin. She did NOT spend anytime waiting to get pregnant with #11, despite what doctors said. Her uterus ruptured and she almost died in child birth. She had to have an emergency hysterectomy. 

[HermioneSparrow]

I'll never understand people who avoid c-sections and hospital births like the plague... It's 2018 for fucks sake, take advantage of modern science!

People like Queen Victoria took formol to release the pain and were scared to death of dying in childbirth cause it was so common! Now it seems like everyone and their mama (fundie or not) are all about suffering and risking their lives by not using prenatal care and having a homebirth at all costs. It's freaking ridiculous.

Having a damn c-section and a hospital birth is not the end of the world, do what it needs to be done to be freaking safe.

I'm glad Joy and Gideon are good, hopefully Jinger and Kendra are taking care of themselves and their babies.

[bucket]

I wonder if she wasn’t ready for the labor, wore out, and got scared? That can definitely lead to a hospital transfer and if she was really exhausted, a c-section. 

 

I call bullshit on a 10lb baby flipping breach mid labor. 

[victoriasponge]

On 09/03/2018 at 9:57 AM, CarrotCake said:

France is also a really difficult place for vegetarians (outside of the bigger cities), their whole cuisine revolves around meat and fish.

Please rescue me, I’ve agreed a holiday to Carcassonne for a couple of weeks time. My boyfriend is a huge meat eater, I’m veggie, I’m going to live off plain fries. (I’m asking Mum who is fluent to write a very clear list of what I won’t eat so I can hand it to waiters if there’s a language barrier but we had a waiter give my dad chicken last time we were there and proceed to tell him it included no meat, and that was after Mum had specified no poultry!)

It doesn’t help I’m gluten intolerant. I might have to decide between vomiting and my morals, I’ve never been put in that position before, even in small town USA when I worked there in 2016.

[Tangy Bee]

Joy is so young. I think she is just going along with what her mom and sisters have done and said over the years. Let's face it, she probably doesn't trust anyone or anything she isn't familiar with. Michelle did it...so I guess it's ok. Jill, Anna, and Jessa did it...so I guess it's ok. Just glad she didn't have to push a 10 pound human out! Yes we know it's possible to do safely but these folks scare the shit out of me with their birthing methods.

[feministxtian]

What is it going to take for these idiots to realize that professional pre-natal care (CNM or OB/GYN) is important? Is it going to take a stillbirth/bad birth outcome or a maternal death? 

Fuck me running, I'm good with natural shit, I mean I had all 3 of my kids w/o drugs...but damn, I birthed those brats in a hospital with proficient personnel around

[Sky with diamonds]

Break the cycle of home births, Jinger. 

 

[nst]

3 hours ago, karen77 said:

20 hrs seems like a long time to labor before realizing the baby is breach. unless they are counting from the first barely there contraction (in which case, i must have labored for 24 hrs with my son, but for the first 12, I was taking my daughter to swim lessons, going to the store, going to Target and lifting said daughter, not having a clue I was in labor (thought it was Braxton Hicks, just more often than it had been)) To me, that is just exaggerating it.

NOW, if she said 20 hrs ACTIVE labor, then yeah, the MW was dumb.

well you are my hero !! did you get an icecream during that time... because then you would get a medal 

[SassyPants]

6 minutes ago, Sky with diamonds said:

Break the cycle of home births, Jinger. 

 

I'm not seeing Jinger birthing at home.

[nst]

Just now, SassyPants said:

I'm not seeing Jinger birthing at home.

and ruin the sheets - um no 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

9 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I'm not seeing Jinger birthing at home.

I don't see it either. I see her wanting a hospital birth (yay!).  Jeremy will be cool with it because it makes him look good.

[viii]

I see Jinger with a mid-wife but at the hospital. However, nothing would surprise me with this family. 

[Free Jana Duggar]

26 minutes ago, Sky with diamonds said:

Break the cycle of home births, Jinger. 

 

If anyone does, I think it will be Jinger.  Jeremy seems like he cares enough to ensure she goes to the hospital. We'll have to wait and see though.

 One thing I'm sure of is that Jinger won't give birth on a toilet while  Jeremy takes a nap.

 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I think home birthing is dangerous and selfish. Hospitals have trained people and millions of dollars of specialized equipment .  I also think if you have a penis your opinion is secondary.  Rufus bless all the women of the world!

[HarryPotterFan]

2 minutes ago, Free Jana Duggar said:

If anyone does, I think it will be Jinger.  Jeremy seems like he cares enough to ensure she goes to the hospital. We'll have to wait and see though.

 One thing I'm sure of is that Jinger won't give birth on a toilet while  Jeremy takes a nap.

 

I also think he’d know more about childbirth than Ben. Which isn’t saying much, but I feel like Jeremy would be more likely to learn about how there are Jill-type midwives and then there are real ones. I can’t see Ben figuring that out, or even knowing how to educate himself. He would just go with what Jessa says. Let’s say Jinger had a first birth like Jessa and needed to be transferred to the hospital. I get the feeling Jeremy would insist the second birth occur at a hospital or birthing center, rather than stand around traumatized and worried like Ben (being scared is totally natural in his situation).  As for Derrick, he’s just a fucking idiot.

Adding: I just don’t get people who insist on doing something dangerous when giving birth. Healthy baby and healthy mama are what’s important, and then people act like their birth plan is more important to that.

[singsingsing]

I would honestly be surprised if Jinger went the homebirth route, she seemed really not thrilled with the idea when they were discussing childbirth during that 'after show' just before Jill gave birth to Sam. And Jessa was telling her to go to the hospital and have an epidural and not listen to anyone else if that's what she wanted. I can't imagine Jeremy being against a hospital birth either, and Jessa and Jeremy seem to be her two biggest influences, so I doubt she'd cave to pressure from anyone else. Guess we'll see.

[Free Jana Duggar]

If Jinger wants a home birth, Jeremy might go along with it for a little while, but I don't see him putting up with a 40 hour unaided labor at home nonsense. I think he'd have her at the hospital at the first sign of trouble.

[SassyPants]

Frankly, I don't know why we continue to give any of the 2nd generation or their spouses (Especially the Duggar SILs) the benefit of the doubt when it comes to child birth. I have yet to see a good decision made by any of them where child birth is concerned.

[ChickenettiLuvr]

Just watched both Go episodes re joy's birth.

I'm not a midwife or nurse but cannot for the life of me understand how it took 20 hours to understand baby was breech.

I too had a freakishly huge first baby (one week before the scheduled due date). Ridiculously long labor. Horribly painful + unproductive because kiddo much too big for birthin. Oy!

I remember asking my OB-- "If I were dumb enough to do this again, what would you do?"

Her reply: Don't. You're not made to have babies. But if you did, I'd schedule a C for you at least one week early.

So I was happy and fine and done at one.

Then God laughed. Gave me Irish twins. Second was scheduled C, a week before due date. Another BIG baby. Oof.

Even if I had wanted a dozen, I was smart enough not to push my luck. (My body still suffered irreparable damage, but that's for another day...)

P.S. if my DD or DIL ever want a home birth, I'll go all fifty shades of nope on that one. (Normally I express NO opinions to them whatsoever.) 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Both my mum and sister had c sections because baby was breach, Mum wanted to try vbac with my sister but was advised not to and then had me by c section a month early. My sister was told that despite baby being breach they could still attempt a natural birth, her waters had already broke 10 weeks early, she opted for a c section and then chose it for her second child. She had decided if before her section date she had gone into labour she would have attempted a vbac. 

I don't get why people don't use the available health care, it is not medeval times and ultrasounds and other tests are things people generations ago would have killed for. I'm not saying don't have home births just at least use qualified medical staff and make sure it's safe. Not saying Joy ignored risks, she seems to have listened to the midwife and went to hospital.

 

My mom had 3 easy births, I was the 1st and the longest labor at 16 hours my brother was the shortest at 6 hours my sister was around 8 hours.  My 1st was a 24 hour labor, 4 hours of pushing and a c/section, he was 8lbs even, all 3 of us were in 7 1/2 to 7lbs 15 oz.  My 2nd was a scheduled c/section, she was over 9 lbs.  My sister had 2 c/sections as well, but her reason was she didn't dilate past 4cm either time, she had some kind of procedure on her cervix about 3 years before her 1st baby and they told her there was a chance scare tissue could form and keep her from having natural births.

As for people not using available health care? You aren't from the US, we don't use it because we can't afford it, Jill's birth with Samuel probably cost them close to $100k USD and I'm guessing they did NOT have health insurance. I would go a long way to explaining why Derelict is flipping his shit, that is a huge debt to try and get out from under. 

[JillRodsEyeliner]

31 minutes ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

I think home birthing is dangerous and selfish. Hospitals have trained people and millions of dollars of specialized equipment .  I also think if you have a penis your opinion is secondary.  Rufus bless all the women of the world!

Sadly Rufus would take his wife to the hospital!

[MargaretElliott]

Like, I'm not one to judge home births, I can see why someone would want that, but it's gone awry for so many Duggars and they end up in the hospital anyway...

Like, if you have a legitimate midwife and awesome pre-natal care, and you're at very low risk for complications, and you're not giving birth to a babysaurus rex (can you tell how big a kid is before birth? Don't know, I've never been pregnant), then a home birth might work for you. But while we don't see the Duggars specifically avoiding pre-natal treatment, we see them going to boutique ultrasound places and Jill using a doppler. So we don't really have evidence one way or the other, just speculation and a history of home births gone wrong.

I've posted about this before. I heard a story once, hell, it might have been here, where a woman was going over her birth plan in a class and the instructor asked the women how it could go wrong, what the worst possible thing that could happen was. All the other women said things like "I have to go to the hospital" or "I have to have a c-section." However, this woman said, "Both the baby and I die." All the other women in the class were horrified and offended, because they didn't think it was even something to be considered. Well, it is. With the advent of modern medicine, people have forgotten how dangerous childbirth really is. Throughout history, it's been a pretty significant cause of death (not the #1 cause of death for women, but, you know, up there). People say, "women have been doing this forever, your body knows what it's doing!" Well, a lot of people died that way. Nowadays, when a child dies, it's a tragedy that should have never happened. Well, back before advanced medicine, it was normal for someone to lose one or more children throughout their life, whether from complications in birth, communicable disease, or something else that we can prevent nowadays. It was normal for someone to die in childbirth. It was sad, yes, but it was an expected tragedy, one that happened in almost every single family. People take safety for granted. People take life for granted. In the comforts of modern life, people forget what it was like to fear for your life, squatting in the dirt with no pain relief, no ultrasounds, no vitamins, no pregnant yoga classes, not knowing if you would live or die.

People forget that the scales of life and death can tip all too suddenly.

I don't begrudge anyone wanting a home birth (as long as it's done knowledgeably and safely), but I do begrudge someone potentially endangering their life and the life of their child for the sake of an ideal.

[SassyPants]

4 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

My mom had 3 easy births, I was the 1st and the longest labor at 16 hours my brother was the shortest at 6 hours my sister was around 8 hours.  My 1st was a 24 hour labor, 4 hours of pushing and a c/section, he was 8lbs even, all 3 of us were in 7 1/2 to 7lbs 15 oz.  My 2nd was a scheduled c/section, she was over 9 lbs.  My sister had 2 c/sections as well, but her reason was she didn't dilate past 4cm either time, she had some kind of procedure on her cervix about 3 years before her 1st baby and they told her there was a chance scare tissue could form and keep her from having natural births.

As for people not using available health care? You aren't from the US, we don't use it because we can't afford it, Jill's birth with Samuel probably cost them close to $100k USD and I'm guessing they did NOT have health insurance. I would go a long way to explaining why Derelict is flipping his shit, that is a huge debt to try and get out from under. 

I agree that the US HC situation is out of control- AND that's why most people have to have 9-5 jobs, that they keep day to day, year to year, decade to decade, for a lifetime. It's also why many people use birth control, get regular exercise and try to eat as healthy s possible.

Just now, MargaretElliott said:

Like, I'm not one to judge home births, I can see why someone would want that, but it's gone awry for so many Duggars and they end up in the hospital anyway...

Like, if you have a legitimate midwife and awesome pre-natal care, and you're at very low risk for complications, and you're not giving birth to a babysaurus rex (can you tell how big a kid is before birth? Don't know, I've never been pregnant), then a home birth might work for you. But while we don't see the Duggars specifically avoiding pre-natal treatment, we see them going to boutique ultrasound places and Jill using a doppler. So we don't really have evidence one way or the other, just speculation and a history of home births gone wrong.

I've posted about this before. I heard a story once, hell, it might have been here, where a woman was going over her birth plan in a class and the instructor asked the women how it could go wrong, what the worst possible thing that could happen was. All the other women said things like "I have to go to the hospital" or "I have to have a c-section." However, this woman said, "Both the baby and I die." All the other women in the class were horrified and offended, because they didn't think it was even something to be considered. Well, it is. With the advent of modern medicine, people have forgotten how dangerous childbirth really is. Throughout history, it's been a pretty significant cause of death (not the #1 cause of death for women, but, you know, up there). People say, "women have been doing this forever, your body knows what it's doing!" Well, a lot of people died that way. Nowadays, when a child dies, it's a tragedy that should have never happened. Well, back before advanced medicine, it was normal for someone to lose one or more children throughout their life, whether from complications in birth, communicable disease, or something else that we can prevent nowadays. It was normal for someone to die in childbirth. It was sad, yes, but it was an expected tragedy, one that happened in almost every single family. People take safety for granted. People take life for granted. In the comforts of modern life, people forget what it was like to fear for your life, squatting in the dirt with no pain relief, no ultrasounds, no vitamins, no pregnant yoga classes, not knowing if you would live or die.

People forget that the scales of life and death can tip all too suddenly.

I don't begrudge anyone wanting a home birth (as long as it's done knowledgeably and safely), but I do begrudge someone potentially endangering their life and the life of their child for the sake of an ideal.

Home birth is more doable/successful for a person who has already had a successful vaginal birth and for those who receive regular, medically provided, prenatal care- If Joy had received routine PNC, including weekly visits for the last month of pregnancy, she would have known the presentation  and approximate size of her fetus-