Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[singsingsing]

5 minutes ago, melon said:

So he was always hoping,looking for something he'd never have?Is it also possible he had untreated diabetes?Leading to possible impotence,and a wound that would not heal?

I assume there wasn't much that could be done about diabetes,then.

Definitely. There are all kinds of possibilities, and they're all way too fun to speculate about. I'm fairly convinced that he had a traumatic brain injury, which contributed to his erratic behaviour later in life, as well as the leg wound that never really healed, and chronic pain. I'm sure he had other issues going on as well. Basically by the time he was approaching middle age, he was not a healthy dude, and he'd been through a fair bit of psychological trauma as well (to be fair, most of it self-inflicted...).

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Yes.  Anne of Cleves greatest "sin" was NOT that she was ugly, fat, or not a maid.  It's the fact that she didn't play into the great romantic fantasy that Henry loved so much.  Intentionally or not, when they first met, Anne didn't play Henry's game and he never forgave her for it.  Or at least that's the narrative.

But I personally wonder if Anne's conduct was largely irrelevant.  The fact that Henry felt forced into making a political marriage didn't sit well with him, and he was already upset about that before he met Anne.  Again, a practical, diplomatic marriage went right in the face of this great romantic fantasy that Henry seemed so into.  Katherine was the desperate princess he rescued, Anne was his Great Love, Jane was the comforter who healed his wounds from Anne and gave him a son...all 3 largely Courtly Love tropes.  And then here comes Anne of Cleves, the prudent marriage for diplomatic reasons.  You wont find love poems about that. 

I think barring Anne showing up and being a supermodel with a perfect disposition, Henry would have rejected the marriage because he just hated it on principle and hated that he was forced into it (Henry didn't like ANYTHING he was FORCED to do).  I personally think that one of the reasons Henry offered Anne such a generous settlement and treated her well afterward is that he really DID like her well enough...but being forced into a marriage clashed with his own ideals on marriage, his ideals on kingship, and his ideas about himself.  He COULDN'T stay in it, but that wasn't really Anne's fault and while he couldn't come out and say that without admitting he had been bullied, I think he did recognize on some level that his issues were with the marriage, not with the lady.  

Anyways, I am not a historian.  So I welcome this argument being torn to shreds  

I wonder if Anne would have responded differently to his disguise she might have lasted as a wife? I have read accounts that she was not bad looking and was quite sweet and charming. 

I do agree that Henry never liked to do what someone told him. Even marrying Katherine..... his father was against it but as soon as Henry was able to, he married her. When the Pope told him no way to marrying Anne B., he went ahead anyway. When he tired of her, he found a way to rid himself of her. Jane's death was the one thing he couldn't have his way. 

Just now, singsingsing said:

Definitely. There are all kinds of possibilities, and they're all way too fun to speculate about. I'm fairly convinced that he had a traumatic brain injury, which contributed to his erratic behaviour later in life, as well as the leg wound that never really healed, and chronic pain. I'm sure he had other issues going on as well. Basically by the time he was approaching middle age, he was not a healthy dude, and he'd been through a fair bit of psychological trauma as well (to be fair, most of it self-inflicted...).

that time when he was married to Anne Boleyn and almost died when he was jousting I believe. 

[Ace3]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:42 AM, justoneoftwo said:

Home birth being cheaper is often a myth.  Obviously its cheaper than a c-section or a NICU stay, but you have those either way if you need them.  

Unless of course the midwives that attend Duggar births 'gift' their time/services. I wouldn't be surprised if these midwives were doing it for free just because of who is giving birth. Especially if it's a family friend or Jill - I don't think they would charge for their services. I could be wrong but it's crossed my mind in the past. I can just hear Michelle saying something like "A precious friend felt God lay it on her heart to bless [insert daughter here] with her services. We are so blessed that this sweet friend feels led to use her gifts to bring a new, precious blessing into this world to serve the Lord. What a special season of life!" 

[Georgiana]

18 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I wonder if Anne would have responded differently to his disguise she might have lasted as a wife? I have read accounts that she was not bad looking and was quite sweet and charming. 

I do agree that Henry never liked to do what someone told him. Even marrying Katherine..... his father was against it but as soon as Henry was able to, he married her. When the Pope told him no way to marrying Anne B., he went ahead anyway. When he tired of her, he found a way to rid himself of her. Jane's death was the one thing he couldn't have his way. 

that time when he was married to Anne Boleyn and almost died when he was jousting I believe. 

Maybe.  I think the cards were SO stacked against Anne of Cleves that the marriage was essentially doomed from the get-go.  It was already going to be a tough sell to get Henry to love her enough to forget the insult of being forced into a marriage for political reasons, she had a VERY limited time to do so, and she had a language and culture barrier to overcome.  Not only that, she was very likely a virgin when she married Henry.  Despite his complaints about her LACK of maidenhood being the reason he couldn't consummate, I think it's rather clear that by this point, Henry needed the services of an experienced woman to complete the act.  Poor Anne, lacking in experience, didn't know how to help Henry.  So she needed something that she could not lawfully get: sexual experience with another partner.  That marriage bed was a Catch-22. 

And yes, the jousting accident WAS during the Anne B years.  Of note is the fact that Anne blamed this accident for her suffering a miscarriage a few days later of a male fetus ("She has miscarried of her savior"):

Quote

“On the day of the interment [Catherine of Aragon’s funeral] the Concubine had an abortion which seemed to be a male child which she had not borne 3½ months, at which the King has shown great distress. The said concubine wished to lay the blame on the duke of Norfolk, whom she hates, saying he frightened her by bringing the news of the fall the King had six days before. But it is well known that is not the cause, for it was told her in a way that she should not be alarmed or attach much importance to it. Some think it was owing to her own incapacity to bear children, others to a fear that the King would treat her like the late Queen, especially considering the treatment shown to a lady of the Court, named Mistress Semel, to whom, as many say, he has lately made great presents.”1 Eustace Chapuys to Charles V, 10th February 1536.

 

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Despite his complaints about her LACK of maidenhood being the reason he couldn't consummate, I think it's rather clear that by this point, Henry needed the services of an experienced woman to complete the act.  Poor Anne, lacking in experience, didn't know how to help Henry.  So she needed something that she could not lawfully get: sexual experience with another partner.  That marriage bed was a Catch-22. 

This strikes me as really strange, and if that is what he blamed it on, it must have just been another excuse to get rid of her. Henry had plenty of sexual experience of his own at that point. Why couldn't he have taught Anne what to do, like every other sexually experienced man with a virginal (and sexually ignorant) bride? I'm guessing that at that point he couldn't really complete the act with any woman, no matter how attractive or experienced. But of course he wasn't willing to admit that.

[viii]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I always thought he was more infatuated with Anne. Madly infatuated. I don't know if Henry ever really loved any woman besides his mother. I think he basically was looking for someone like her and got caught up with Anne and Catherine Howard who both got his passion going.... 

I think there is enough proof that Henry loved Anne as much as he was capable of. He chased her for over seven years, and this was a prince who was used to getting his way instantly. This was a religious man who broke with the Catholic Church and risked his salvation to be with her. I think Henry's relationship with Anne goes far beyond infatuations. 

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

It appears he may have had a genetic problem which caused his wives not to be able to carry a second child.  I don't think there would have been more children.  I don't think he would have divorced her though, just been unhappy and angry all the time.  He wouldn't risk his son for anything, so he couldn't have gotten rid of her.  I also don't think she was as compliant as she seemed, if she was maybe she would have agreed to go to a nunnery or something and let him move on.

Like others have pointed out, this is false. Catherine bore him living children, so while there were plenty of issues, this genetic problem was not it. 

[justoneoftwo]

What was his psychological trauma?  Just killing off his wives?  Feeling he had to live up to Arther?  

[viii]

I would love to see how things would have turned out if Arthur had lived and become King. Granted, we wouldn't have gotten Elizabeth I, but it still would have been really interesting to see how Arthur and Catherine would have reigned, and if she would have still had so many fertility issues (my guess is probably yes)

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, viii said:

I think there is enough proof that Henry loved Anne as much as he was capable of. He chased her for over seven years, and this was a prince who was used to getting his way instantly. This was a religious man who broke with the Catholic Church and risked his salvation to be with her. I think Henry's relationship with Anne goes far beyond infatuations. 

Like others have pointed out, this is false. Catherine bore him living children, so while there were plenty of issues, this genetic problem was not it. 

but couldn't that have just been the he couldn't have her mentality he didn't like being told what to do and he was told to stay away from Anne so he just must have her plus Catherine wasn't giving him son's that lived so he needed a new queen as he was obsessed with having an heir. he wanted an Heir and Anne and Anne wanted to be Queen. I don't think he risked anything for Anne I think he risked it for the male heir. if the young Henry had lived or Catherine had given birth to another living son Anne wouldn't have stood a chance. as a mistress for a bit sure as a wife never. 

[Timetraveler]

1 hour ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

that doesn't make sense Catherine was pregnant 7 times  had 3 live birth's plus still births.  and miscarriages Mary was her fifth pregnancy and 2nd live birth her first son and second pregnancy lived 52 days a second live daughter was born later an lived a few hours.  it very well could have been a genetic issue on Henry's part but not with carrying the children. 

I find the Tudors such an interesting topic! 

 

https://www.history.com/news/did-blood-cause-henry-viiis-madness-and-reproductive-woes

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, Timetraveler said:

I find the Tudors such an interesting topic! 

 

https://www.history.com/news/did-blood-cause-henry-viiis-madness-and-reproductive-woes

that is a very interesting read and does make sense too bad Jane didn't live  to see if that theory would have held up. 

[singsingsing]

13 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

What was his psychological trauma?  Just killing off his wives?  Feeling he had to live up to Arther?  

Two of his younger siblings died in early childhood, which wasn't uncommon at the time, but still had a significant emotional impact (the idea that medieval/early modern people didn't really mourn the loss of children/siblings because child mortality was so high is a myth). 

Then his older brother died and overnight he became the one and only heir to a kingdom that had only just emerged from a century of extremely bloody civil war and was just barely being held together by a fairly unpopular king.

Then his mother (who he seems to have idolized) died, and his baby sister died soon after. This threw his father into a state of extreme grief. Not to mention the grief that Henry himself was experiencing.

The back and forth about whether he would marry Catherine of Aragon or not was probably quite stressful, and he may have felt genuinely upset and guilty on her behalf.

His father was very strict and kept him very isolated, probably due to the paranoia of him literally being the only heir left. His father went through more than one bout of extreme illness when Henry was still a minor, which must have been more than a little anxiety provoking.

Oh, and growing up he surely would have been treated to the stories of the vast numbers of his parents' family members who had been killed in battle, deposed, murdered, disappeared, etc...

And that was just what took place up until he was 17. 

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

but couldn't that have just been the he couldn't have her mentality he didn't like being told what to do and he was told to stay away from Anne so he just must have her plus Catherine wasn't giving him son's that lived so he needed a new queen as he was obsessed with having an heir. he wanted an Heir and Anne and Anne wanted to be Queen. I don't think he risked anything for Anne I think he risked it for the male heir. if the young Henry had lived or Catherine had given birth to another living son Anne wouldn't have stood a chance. as a mistress for a bit sure as a wife never. 

Henry wanted what he couldn't have, not only was he told no, she told him no. It only made him want her more. No one said no to him.  If she would have been his mistress early on, I think he would have moved on from her. So infatuation perhaps isn't the right word, but I think it borders on an obsession, just like his to have a son (though that was kind of important for the Tudor dynasty at the time)

14 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

This strikes me as really strange, and if that is what he blamed it on, it must have just been another excuse to get rid of her. Henry had plenty of sexual experience of his own at that point. Why couldn't he have taught Anne what to do, like every other sexually experienced man with a virginal (and sexually ignorant) bride? I'm guessing that at that point he couldn't really complete the act with any woman, no matter how attractive or experienced. But of course he wasn't willing to admit that.

Yes, he needed a bit of a "tart" who knew her way around to get him going if he could even.  

[singsingsing]

15 minutes ago, viii said:

I would love to see how things would have turned out if Arthur had lived and become King. Granted, we wouldn't have gotten Elizabeth I, but it still would have been really interesting to see how Arthur and Catherine would have reigned, and if she would have still had so many fertility issues (my guess is probably yes)

Same! It's fun to imagine what would have happened if Arthur had lived and he and Catherine had produced a whole bunch of healthy children, but realistically I doubt that would have been the case. If it was an issue with Catherine, it would have still been an issue. And if it was a genetic issue with Henry, there's probably a high chance that Arthur would have had the same problem.

[viii]

11 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

. I don't think he risked anything for Anne I think he risked it for the male heir. if the young Henry had lived or Catherine had given birth to another living son Anne wouldn't have stood a chance. as a mistress for a bit sure as a wife never. 

If he just wanted a male heir, there were women that were a far better choice than Anne. He definitely risked it all forher. 

[justoneoftwo]

Just now, singsingsing said:

Same! It's fun to imagine what would have happened if Arthur had lived and he and Catherine had produced a whole bunch of healthy children, but realistically I doubt that would have been the case. If it was an issue with Catherine, it would have still be an issue. And if it was a genetic issue with Henry, there's probably a high chance that Arthur would have had the same problem.

She would have been starting much younger though, right?  I think that might have given them a better chance.  Also would Arther have been so obsessed?  He would have had Henry as an heir, and isn't there a chance he would have been less afraid of a girl inheriting?  

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, viii said:

If he just wanted a male heir, there were women that were a far better choice than Anne. He definitely risked it all forher. 

him wanting something he couldn't have (Anne) doesn't mean he loved her. he wanted her sure no question about it. loved not a chance. 

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, viii said:

If he just wanted a male heir, there were women that were a far better choice than Anne. He definitely risked it all forher. 

Absolutely. I don't understand how anyone could actually study the history of his reign and not come to his conclusion. I'm not saying that you have to believe that he was madly in love with her the whole time, that they were soul mates, or that he had no other motives whatsoever in marrying her, but it so clearly wasn't just to get a male heir. Like you (and I) said, there were much better candidates for that than Anne Boleyn.

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

She would have been starting much younger though, right?  I think that might have given them a better chance.  Also would Arther have been so obsessed?  He would have had Henry as an heir, and isn't there a chance he would have been less afraid of a girl inheriting?  

Yes! Assuming the nonsense about Arthur and Catherine failing to consummate their marriage wasn't indicative of any actual major issue on his part, they would've gotten started a bit younger. She would have had a few extra years to have babies, so a few more chances to have a living son. And you never know, it's entirely possible that it really was an issue with Henry, or even just cruel random chance, and she and Arthur would've had multiple living sons. And maybe Henry would have gotten married and (assuming he didn't actually have a fertility issue), gotten lucky and produced a few living sons of his own. The line would have been pretty secure at that point. Oh the possibilities!

[Georgiana]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

This strikes me as really strange, and if that is what he blamed it on, it must have just been another excuse to get rid of her. Henry had plenty of sexual experience of his own at that point. Why couldn't he have taught Anne what to do, like every other sexually experienced man with a virginal (and sexually ignorant) bride? I'm guessing that at that point he couldn't really complete the act with any woman, no matter how attractive or experienced. But of course he wasn't willing to admit that.

Yeah, he got really weird with it.  His justification was that it was his CONSCIENCE preventing him from getting it up because he knew she was not a maid and was not truly his wife.   He called her virginity directly into question multiple times, especially when officially denying that the marriage had been consummated: “I never for love to the woman consented to marry; nor yet if she brought maidenhead with her, took any from her by true carnal copulation”

REAL gallant, Hank. Way to throw that IF in there.  

He first questioned her virginity the morning after their wedding, actually.  And I think the reason he didn't just soldier on and teach her was that he was already pretty much done with the marriage.  He had tried to get out of it before it even took place and couldn't, but he wasn't happy about it.  He still wanted out, he just needed a valid reason. Non-consummation was a very convenient pretext for the divorce, and I think Henry chose to go with it rather than fight it.  He simply didn't WANT the marriage to work.   

But I think he could complete the act under the right conditions.  Katherine Howard was a naive young girl, but she WAS experienced in the bedroom, and while inclined to teenage lack of foresight and suffering from a lack of education, I don't think she was truly stupid.  I think she knew enough to know that if she and Henry were not regularly consummating their marriage at least to Henry's "satisfaction", that sleeping with other men would be an unthinkable risk.  I think her affair suggests that Henry was able to complete the sexual act at least enough to POTENTIALLY create a child, which may have been why she was sleeping with other men on the side.  

And Henry was experienced too and knew what it took to create a child.  At least at one point in his marriage to Howard, a pregnancy was suspected and preparations were in place for her coronation if it was "found to be true".  While Henry was deluded, if he was completely impotent by this point, I don't think he would have reacted to the news of a pregnancy in quite this fashion.  He certainly reacted differently when confronted with the less solid evidence of his wife's affair.  So I think on some level, Katherine Howard was able to do enough to at least convince HIM that he could still sire children at least in theory.  

[Carm_88]

Henry spent so much time searching for his perfect love. He thought he had it in every wife, but then for some reason or another it didn't happen. I think that Catherine Howard's betrayal was horrid for Henry because he suddenly realized that he was old. He wasn't the young handsome prince who won so many young women. 

Henry did love Anne, probably more then people imagine. Yeah, he had her beheaded but I think that was the Tudor rage and a touch of the wrong people bending his ear. 

[Daisy0322]

This thread stirred up a curiousity for me so forgive me for my novice question: I read when Henry accused Anne of Cleves to not be a virgin he claimed it was because "she didn't have the breasts or hips of a virgin" was he insinuating that she had given birth prior? Because that's the only explanation I can think of. 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

And Henry was experienced too and knew what it took to create a child.  At least at one point in his marriage to Howard, a pregnancy was suspected and preparations were in place for her coronation if it was "found to be true".  While Henry was deluded, if he was completely impotent by this point, I don't think he would have reacted to the news of a pregnancy in quite this fashion.  He certainly reacted differently when confronted with the less solid evidence of his wife's affair.  So I think on some level, Katherine Howard was able to do enough to at least convince HIM that he could still sire children at least in theory.  

Ahh, see I'm not as familiar with his marriage to Catherine Howard, and I was always under the impression that it was the administrators at the ready to prepare for a coronation if she was found to be pregnant - and that Henry obviously never told them, "Hey, she ain't getting pregnant, because I can't get it up." Because, I mean, of course he wouldn't admit to that! Interesting.

[justoneoftwo]

I'm always fascinated with Catherine Parr.  How did she make it last that long?  Did he actually accept that he was old at that point?  

[viii]

3 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm always fascinated with Catherine Parr.  How did she make it last that long?  Did he actually accept that he was old at that point?  

The thing with Katherine Parr is that she had already been widowed twice - I don't believe he married her expecting to get a multitude of children with her. I think at the point he had accepted that he would no longer have heirs, although he still thought, 'well, maybe!'

She got herself into hot water, but was able to talk her way out of it. I think if he hadn't died when he did, though, eventually he would have found fault with her and would have divorced her or found some other way to dispose of her. Once he was on to his sixth wife, I think there was very little Henry thought he couldn't do (except have a bunch of male sons, lollll)

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

The thing with Katherine Parr is that she had already been widowed twice - I don't believe he married her expecting to get a multitude of children with her. I think at the point he had accepted that he would no longer have heirs, although he still thought, 'well, maybe!'

She got herself into hot water, but was able to talk her way out of it. I think if he hadn't died when he did, though, eventually he would have found fault with her and would have divorced her or found some other way to dispose of her. Once he was on to his sixth wife, I think there was very little Henry thought he couldn't do (except have a bunch of male sons, lollll)

Katherine was more nursemaid, but I agree, he probably thought you never know.  At that point though he was suffering with his leg and she managed to soothe him. When she got in trouble, she was smart enough to defer to his male pride and managed to escape trouble.