Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[viii]

Question for you guys - how do you spell the Catherine/Katherine's? I've seen it so many different ways, and there seems to be no universal agreement. 

I tend to go Catherine of Aragon, Katherine Howard, and Katherine Parr, but I could be completely off base. 

[libgirl2]

21 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Henry spent so much time searching for his perfect love. He thought he had it in every wife, but then for some reason or another it didn't happen. I think that Catherine Howard's betrayal was horrid for Henry because he suddenly realized that he was old. He wasn't the young handsome prince who won so many young women. 

Henry did love Anne, probably more then people imagine. Yeah, he had her beheaded but I think that was the Tudor rage and a touch of the wrong people bending his ear. 

Yes, he pursued Catherine like a young man, which he wasn't. Suddenly, he was just an old, fat man with a bad leg that didn't have the ladies chasing him unless they were put up to it by ambitious family members. 

[justoneoftwo]

Just now, libgirl2 said:

Katherine was more nursemaid, but I agree, he probably thought you never know.  At that point though he was suffering with his leg and she managed to soothe him. When she got in trouble, she was smart enough to defer to his male pride and managed to escape trouble. 

 

I suppose I'm surprised he wanted a nursemaid after wanting the hot young thing.  Did something happen that made him accept that was what he needed?

[libgirl2]

23 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Henry spent so much time searching for his perfect love. He thought he had it in every wife, but then for some reason or another it didn't happen. I think that Catherine Howard's betrayal was horrid for Henry because he suddenly realized that he was old. He wasn't the young handsome prince who won so many young women. 

Henry did love Anne, probably more then people imagine. Yeah, he had her beheaded but I think that was the Tudor rage and a touch of the wrong people bending his ear. 

He also was the type of person who wanted something so badly and once he got it, he got tired of it rather quickly. 

[singsingsing]

Just now, viii said:

Question for you guys - how do you spell the Catherine/Katherine's? I've seen it so many different ways, and there seems to be no universal agreement. 

I tend to go Catherine of Aragon, Katherine Howard, and Katherine Parr, but I could be completely off base. 

To be honest, I kind of go back and forth. Right now I think I'm just sticking with Catherine across the board, I guess for consistency. And so that I stop spelling it differently in each different post. 

[viii]

Personally, I think after it was revealed that Katherine Howard was having an affair, I think he realized that he wasn't the young prince he used to be, and that majority of the women that wanted his attention weren't after him, but his money/title/etc. It was a humbling experience for him, I think, and Katherine Parr was steady and constant. She had proven herself loyal to her previous two older husbands, and she was intelligent and able to carry conversations regarding their common interests. I don't think he thought nursemaid, but rather dependable, lovely friend. 

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I suppose I'm surprised he wanted a nursemaid after wanting the hot young thing.  Did something happen that made him accept that was what he needed?

I always saw it as him just being tired and just wanting peace. He realized he couldn't keep up anymore.... his time was passing. And yes, she had been good to her previous two husbands. 

[Georgiana]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

Henry spent so much time searching for his perfect love. He thought he had it in every wife, but then for some reason or another it didn't happen. I think that Catherine Howard's betrayal was horrid for Henry because he suddenly realized that he was old. He wasn't the young handsome prince who won so many young women. 

Henry did love Anne, probably more then people imagine. Yeah, he had her beheaded but I think that was the Tudor rage and a touch of the wrong people bending his ear. 

Yeah, I REALLY hate his marriage to Howard because it's pretty clear that it was essentially the legitimized rape of a young, pretty girl.  Henry's conduct towards his wife during this time always skeeves me out, and while I understand that wasn't how it was understood at the time, I'm not living in the 1530s, so I can be creeped out by this relationship.  

But I always do feel for Henry when he gets the news of his wife's offenses.  He seems to be REALLY devastated on a personal level.  He was thinking she saw him as a young, gallant knight.  The athletic Adonis he was in his youth.  He was having a mid-life crisis, and the affair really woke him up to the truth: those days were gone.  He's a fat, lame, smelly old man with a disgusting open festering wound and women would probably be repulsed by him if he weren't king.  And it just destroys him.  On a human level, I do have sympathy for him in that moment.  

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

Ahh, see I'm not as familiar with his marriage to Catherine Howard, and I was always under the impression that it was the administrators at the ready to prepare for a coronation if she was found to be pregnant - and that Henry obviously never told them, "Hey, she ain't getting pregnant, because I can't get it up." Because, I mean, of course he wouldn't admit to that! Interesting.

Well, our intel on this comes from the French papers and other less than friendly sources, so it could be more conjecture than truth reported early so as to give factions time to prepare just in case.  Marillac mentioned plans to have her coronation during Whitsun if  "if it found to be true" that she was pregnant.  So it seems that she had notified the king of a possible pregnancy at some point and that he responded by making plans for an almost immediate coronation upon the confirmation (letter was dated April 15, Witsun being in May-June).  A pregnancy was never announced or widely speculated at court as far as I know, but I do think that there is a marked change between Henry's behavior with Howard, with whom he appears to believe he COULD sire children with, and Parr, with whom he appears to have become resigned to the fact that his surviving children are it for him. 

It's possible Marillac could have had false intel, but most historians I have read tend to believe that Howard miscalculated her cycle and that she was confirmed to be NOT pregnant within a few days of telling the king, which is why no one else mentions it.  

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

 

But I always do feel for Henry when he gets the news of his wife's offenses.  He seems to be REALLY devastated on a personal level.  He was thinking she saw him as a young, gallant knight.  The athletic Adonis he was in his youth.  He was having a mid-life crisis, and the affair really woke him up to the truth: those days were gone.  He's a fat, lame, smelly old man with a disgusting open festering wound and women would probably be repulsed by him if he weren't king.  And it just destroys him.  On a human level, I do have sympathy for him in that moment.  

 

You hit the nail on the head. Reality check! 

[justoneoftwo]

2 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Yeah, I REALLY hate his marriage to Howard because it's pretty clear that it was essentially the legitimized rape of a young, pretty girl.  Henry's conduct towards his wife during this time always skeeves me out, and while I understand that wasn't how it was understood at the time, I'm not living in the 1530s, so I can be creeped out by this relationship.  

But I always do feel for Henry when he gets the news of his wife's offenses.  He seems to be REALLY devastated on a personal level.  He was thinking she saw him as a young, gallant knight.  The athletic Adonis he was in his youth.  He was having a mid-life crisis, and the affair really woke him up to the truth: those days were gone.  He's a fat, lame, smelly old man with a disgusting open festering wound and women would probably be repulsed by him if he weren't king.  And it just destroys him.  On a human level, I do have sympathy for him in that moment.  

Well, our intel on this comes from the Spanish papers and other less than friendly sources, so it could be more conjecture than truth reported early so as to give factions time to prepare just in case.  Marillac mentioned plans to have her coronation during Whitsun if  "if it found to be true" that she was pregnant.  So it seems that she had notified the king of a possible pregnancy at some point and that he responded by making plans for an almost immediate coronation upon the confirmation (letter was dated April 15, Witsun being in May-June).  A pregnancy was never announced or widely speculated at court as far as I know, but I do think that there is a marked change between Henry's behavior with Howard, with whom he appears to believe he COULD sire children with, and Parr, with whom he appears to have become resigned to the fact that his surviving children are it for him. 

It's possible Marillac could have had false intel, but most historians I have read tend to believe that Howard miscalculated her cycle and that she was confirmed to be NOT pregnant within a few days of telling the king, which is why no one else mentions it.  

Other than the creep factor of her not having a choice and having to marry/sleep with him was there anything specific in his conduct your referencing?  Just curious.  I just don't know much about this.

[Carm_88]

6 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

But I always do feel for Henry when he gets the news of his wife's offenses.  He seems to be REALLY devastated on a personal level.  He was thinking she saw him as a young, gallant knight.  The athletic Adonis he was in his youth.  He was having a mid-life crisis, and the affair really woke him up to the truth: those days were gone.

I feel bad for Henry as well. It couldn't help that he had so many people telling him what he wanted to hear. No one was going to say "No" to him. However, those with the biggest egos have the hardest falls and I think that Catherine/Katherine Howard soured Henry on the belief of love. He married Katherine Parr because he wanted the company of a wife/a nurse. 

[libgirl2]

Just now, Carm_88 said:

I feel bad for Henry as well. It couldn't help that he had so many people telling him what he wanted to hear. No one was going to say "No" to him. However, those with the biggest egos have the hardest falls and I think that Catherine/Katherine Howard soured Henry on the belief of love. He married Katherine Parr because he wanted the company of a wife/a nurse. 

he became disillusioned at the idea of true romantic love. 

[seraaa]

16 minutes ago, viii said:

Question for you guys - how do you spell the Catherine/Katherine's? I've seen it so many different ways, and there seems to be no universal agreement. 

I tend to go Catherine of Aragon, Katherine Howard, and Katherine Parr, but I could be completely off base. 

Catherine, Catherine and Katherine. No idea why.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Catherine, Catherine and Katherine. No idea why.

I mix them up  but Katherine of Aragon I always use a K

[Georgiana]

4 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Other than the creep factor of her not having a choice and having to marry/sleep with him was there anything specific in his conduct your referencing?  Just curious.  I just don't know much about this.

I've never read the primary sources on this, but I have read historians who assert that Henry was so taken by Katherine that he would constantly have his hands all over her, even in public, to the embarrassment of onlookers/courtiers.  I believe it.  People suffering from mental decline often lose their filter and begin to act inappropriately sexual in public.  

I can't imagine how it would feel as a teenager to be publicly pawed at by an old man.  

[Ivycoveredtower]

this is from the Ellie duggar fan page but she talks about Joy's birth and the episode and there is no mention of another midwife just that Jill made the decision that the labor wasn't progressing. so it sounds like Jill was all Joy had but TLC didn't want to say that. 

http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2018/03/joys-c-section-delivery.html

[kachuu]

I love when these threads take a historical turn. I've started watching a lot of youtube documentaries lately about Henrys wives, Elizabeth I, Mary, etc. Love it. 

[Nargus]

1 minute ago, kachuu said:

I love when these threads take a historical turn. I've started watching a lot of youtube documentaries lately about Henrys wives, Elizabeth I, Mary, etc. Love it. 

I love the 'Hidden Killers in the Home' docuseries with Dr Suzannah Lipscomb.  I found them all on Youtube, it's super interesting.

[singsingsing]

Just now, Nargus said:

I love the 'Hidden Killers in the Home' docuseries with Dr Suzannah Lipscomb.  I found them all on Youtube, it's super interesting.

There are so many awesome documentaries on YouTube. I love anything with Lucy Worsley. 

[Georgiana]

4 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

There are so many awesome documentaries on YouTube. I love anything with Lucy Worsley. 

Normally I do too, but I kind of found her obnoxious in the Land of the Tsars or whatever her Russia documentary was called.  Not that the information wasn't great, but it just really got a bit too...much at times, I guess.  I think she really shines when she sticks to British history.

But she's the narrator of my all-time favorite documentary: Tales from the Royal Bedchamber.  Which is far less salacious than you might think and actually a study on the history of beds (as in, the furniture item).  

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Normally I do too, but I kind of found her obnoxious in the Land of the Tsars or whatever her Russia documentary was called.  Not that the information wasn't great, but it just really got a bit too...much at times, I guess.  I think she really shines when she sticks to British history.

But she's the narrator of my all-time favorite documentary: Tales from the Royal Bedchamber.  Which is far less salacious than you might think and actually a study on the history of beds (as in, the furniture item).  

I enjoyed that! 

35 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I've never read the primary sources on this, but I have read historians who assert that Henry was so taken by Katherine that he would constantly have his hands all over her, even in public, to the embarrassment of onlookers/courtiers.  I believe it.  People suffering from mental decline often lose their filter and begin to act inappropriately sexual in public.  

I can't imagine how it would feel as a teenager to be publicly pawed at by an old man.  

I have read that in different books through the years. 

[DillyDally]

I once attended a talk Lucy Worsley gave in London (at Buckingham Palace, no less!)  about filming for the "First Georgians" series. There was a drinks reception afterwards and I was silently fangirling in a corner while my husband tried to encourage me to talk to her... I sent her an e-mail instead next day thanking her for the great talk and she sent me a very nice reply 

[2manyKidzzz]

36 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

this is from the Ellie duggar fan page but she talks about Joy's birth and the episode and there is no mention of another midwife just that Jill made the decision that the labor wasn't progressing. so it sounds like Jill was all Joy had but TLC didn't want to say that. 

http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2018/03/joys-c-section-delivery.html

This is rather upsetting if it is indeed true. OMG. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, 2manyKidzzz said:

This is rather upsetting if it is indeed true. OMG. 

the Ellie Blog seems to stick pretty closely to the truth so I wouldn't doubt it. I am actually a bit surprised they didn't just say midwife and actually said Jill told her. that makes the Duggar's look bad and Ellie and her mom are super Duggar/bates fans. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

I know everyone was gathered at the big house to await news of the baby, but it made me picture that's all they do all day. Healthy adults Just sitting around the giant house with babies spitting up and kids running wild, making coffee one mug at a time.