Boyer Sisters Part 6: Two Left Limping Along

[formergothardite]

Just now, Gabe said:

I manage to do that quite easily if I remember correctly.

I do think that you are low enough to approve of a post like that about Mr Boyer especially given how many of you (I didn't go back to see if it was you in particular.) are still trying to pin everything on him.

Prove me wrong I would be happy to be wrong (about this).

It is a rather poor reflection on their father that he appears to approve this blog post. He does share blame in this for supporting it and allowing his teen daughter to think ranting at her mother till she broke down is acceptable. I'm not seeing signs that he taught them to treat their mother with respect and compassion. 

The fruit of his parenting is a daughter who publicly shames her mother. 

[nickelodeon]

@Coconut Flan I think he means it in the sense that @ViolaSebastian would agree with or encourage the Boyers if they wrote a hateful post about their dad (because he thinks we are Man Hating Feminists)

[Pecansforeveryone]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I am just imagining all the praise and adulation that would be heaped on J and C if they wrote this post about their Dad instead of their mom...

I will not comment on the family here because that would be disrespectful of me and I promised not to in the beginning.

But if any of you have an ounce of self reflection please ask yourselves if you would be gleefully egging the girls on for being brave and sticking it to the man if they wrote this post about their Dad.

A lot of our criticism has been with the damage fundamentalism does to individuals. I would love to see the Boyers be able to honestly reflect on the damaging beliefs they were taught in the fundie lifestyle. Yes, they absolutely would have been taught damaging beliefs. It's a part and parcel of the rigidity and absolutism of fundamentalism. 

[Denim Jumper]

54 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I hope they never feel this way.

The thing is, though... even when you've done everything right, there's not a heck of a lot you can do to prevent them from feeling that way. Sometimes kids and parents have mismatched dispositions. Some kids hold their parents to unrealistically high standards (and vice versa!).

22 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It is a rather poor reflection on their father that he appears to approve this blog post. He does share blame in this for supporting it and allowing his teen daughter to think ranting at her mother till she broke down is acceptable. I'm not seeing signs that he taught them to treat their mother with respect and compassion. 

The fruit of his parenting is a daughter who publicly shames her mother. 

That's what bothers me most. I can't imagine my husband or I ever being okay with something like this being done to other; we've got each other's backs. Just this morning, my 10-year-old was all in a lather over something she and my husband bickered about months ago. My husband was absolutely in the wrong, but he apologized and they made peace, so I put her right in her place and reminded her that it is cruel to keep dredging up past mistakes that have been rectified.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I manage to do that quite easily if I remember correctly.

I do think that you are low enough to approve of a post like that about Mr Boyer especially given how many of you (I didn't go back to see if it was you in particular.) are still trying to pin everything on him.

Prove me wrong I would be happy to be wrong (about this).

When talking about the Boyer’s, I’ve always talked about the parents as a unit. I tend to assume that both parents are on board with fundamentalism. Maybe one is a little more zealous than the other, but I’ve always thought the Boyer’s were probably in agreement on the beliefs taught to their daughters. The thing is, if you look through the posts about your wife and sisters in law, it is almost entirely focused on the three sisters. This particular post is quite out of the ordinary for them and it took many of us by surprise. I would have said the same thing if she wrote this about her father on Father’s Day of all days. The post made me quite sad and I hope your son never writes something like this about your wife on Mother’s Day while you cheer it on. 

[ViolaSebastian]

56 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

@Coconut Flan I think he means it in the sense that @ViolaSebastian would agree with or encourage the Boyers if they wrote a hateful post their dad (because he thinks we are Man Hating Feminists)

Dang it, I wish someone would have texted me to remind me I'm a Man-hater. Would have saved me so much time at work this morning. 

[hoipolloi]

30 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

This particular post is quite out of the ordinary for them and it took many of us by surprise. I would have said the same thing if she write this about her father on Father’s Day of all days. The post made me quite sad and I hope your son never writes something like this about your wife on Mother’s Day while you cheer it on. 

All this. 

Even granting Charlotteʻs & Jessicaʻs relative youth and inexperience and/or real, serious issues in their relationship with the mother, the post is inexcusable. 

[refugee]

3 hours ago, Gabe said:

I am just imagining all the praise and adulation that would be heaped on J and C if they wrote this post about their Dad instead of their mom...

I will not comment on the family here because that would be disrespectful of me and I promised not to in the beginning.

But if any of you have an ounce of self reflection please ask yourselves if you would be gleefully egging the girls on for being brave and sticking it to the man if they wrote this post about their Dad.

I for one would not be gleeful. I would be shocked and dismayed at such a betrayal of confidence, no matter which parent. My kids know about my background, and they’ve heard some things about their grandparents’ shitty childhoods, but they don’t go spreading it all over the internet.

They are welcome to ask me questions. I don’t object to them sharing things with their therapists or their significant others (spouse, for example). But... to share all this publicly on the internet??????

Can you honestly not see the problem with that? (ETA: ok, I read more, and from the comment where you said you would never do this kind of thing to your parents, and you hope your kids wouldn’t do such a thing to you, it appears that you can see the problem. You may be excusing it away with vague references to “the rest of the story”, but you also draw a line of some kind.)

Mother or father.

My exception would be if either or both parents were abusers and had set themselves up as mentors and public figures. Then such publicity is a public service for those who might unwittingly be following their advice.

I haven’t really noticed Clancy or Kathy doing that. Their daughters have, yes, so the girls should definitely make sure they are walking their talk.

Perhaps they might start with honoring their father and their mother.

[punkiepie]

I think one of the most sad things about all of this is that the girls clearly know that their mother experienced some kind of trauma in her youth, which has negative ramifications for ever since then, and they still managed to make it all about them, how they were wronged by her, how their family suffered because of her.  I used to have this dreadful person in my life who couldn't go one minute into seeing me without making some kind of underhanded compliment that was way more on the barb side; exs:  Oh, you look so nice today I didn't recognize you because you usually look so tired and you know.. and, did you just get your hair done? I've never seen it look pretty like this before. You get the idea.  That's what this Mother's Day post reminds me of; like a big fucking insult that's couched with words that seem nice, but really aren't.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, punkiepie said:

I think one of the most sad things about all of this is that the girls clearly know that their mother experienced some kind of trauma in her youth, which has negative ramifications for ever since then, and they still managed to make it all about them, how they were wronged by her, how their family suffered because of her.  I used to have this dreadful person in my life who couldn't go one minute into seeing me without making some kind of underhanded compliment that was way more on the barb side; exs:  Oh, you look so nice today I didn't recognize you because you usually look so tired and you know.. and, did you just get your hair done? I've never seen it look pretty like this before. You get the idea.  That's what this Mother's Day post reminds me of; like a big fucking insult that's couched with words that seem nice, but really aren't.  

They have always come across as some of the most self centered fundies we talk about on FJ. And this just clenches it for me. Maybe Jill Rod beats them. But damn, no one wants to be a close second to Queen Plexus Eyeliner.

[Georgiana]

I have a LOT of issues with my mother right now.  A lot of her parenting choices did me serious harm, harm that eventually lead to essentially me suffering a nervous breakdown, and having to spend the last two+ years putting myself back together. 

But I would never write that post.  Ever.  My mother is a human being, and yes, she made mistakes.  Yes, those mistakes hurt me.  No, I won't make them with my own children.  But she loved me so freaking much.  She tried so hard.  Sure, she failed sometimes.  But sometimes she didn't.  Sometimes she was wonderful.  

You know why I would never write that post?  Because I'm human too.  And I'm going to make mistakes.  And I'm going to fail my kids sometimes because I'm not going to be perfect.  I am going to try SO HARD for them, but I know I will fail sometimes.  So who am I to criticize my mother?  Will I do any better?  I will try to, but I have always taken for granted that my children WILL have a few issues with the choices I make as a parent.  I only hope they are minor, and I only hope that when they are adults, they can forgive me for being human too.

All we can EVER give is our best.  We have nothing more than that.  My mom gave her best, and it maybe wasn't great, but a lot of that was because of what was given to her to work with.  She was a product of her time.  She came from where she came from.  She had her own struggles that sometimes were passed on to me.  And as an adult, I GET that adults aren't magic.  That they can only work with what they have.  That they aren't the miracle workers that I thought they were when I was a child.

So if C and J don't understand that parents are people, that parents are fallible, and that we should show compassion when others fail because we ourselves are also doomed to some failure...all I can say is that that is the view of a CHILD.  A young child who still thinks adults have the capacity to be perfect.   C+J show themselves to be what they are: selfish, indulged CHILDREN playing as adults.  

Girls, grow up.

[Themanda Duggar]

Would someone direct me to their blog, please?  I’ve tried looking around FJ to find it, but I’m not having any luck.

[refugee]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I manage to do that quite easily if I remember correctly.

I do think that you are low enough to approve of a post like that about Mr Boyer especially given how many of you (I didn't go back to see if it was you in particular.) are still trying to pin everything on him.

Prove me wrong I would be happy to be wrong (about this).

I admit to calling Clancy an arrogant asshole and saying it was some years back, in this somewhat secluded place (not, say, a public blog, including a picture of him for good measure). I called Kathy sweet, if I recall. Kind, maybe.

But this was my impression of them IRL, not snark.

And to be charitable, the church culture they were in years back encouraged men to be arrogant assholes, so he may well be a victim of the culture. He certainly didn’t stand out from the crowd in any positive way. However, he wasn’t the greatest jerk, either.

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, Themanda Duggar said:

Would someone direct me to their blog, please?  I’ve tried looking around FJ to find it, but I’m not having any luck.

http://boyersisters.com/2018/05/holding-out-for-your-mom-on-mothers-day/

This is the post being discussed. 

[acheronbeach]

I feel a great deal of sympathy for their mother.  For so many reasons - C makes it selfishly sound like ranting at her until she broke down was something good they did for her, and the fact that Mom has suffered under the weight of her past for decades, to the fact that C had unjustified and unfair expectations about what her relationship with her mom should be.  I think it's totally fair to read this blog post and feel offended by what they wrote (though I personally don't). 

At the same time, I feel sympathy for both girls (particularly Charlotte).  There's a great deal of sadness underpinning her writing.  There's so many details left unsaid and the tone of her writing me think she's in a lot of emotional pain.  Being caught up in my own personal troubles, at least for me, can leave me pretty oblivious to other peoples' feelings and reactions. 

[refugee]

Yknow, @acheronbeach, that’s a good point. All along, since I discovered the Boyer sisters were talked about on FJ (and watched the discussion out of morbid curiosity), I have felt sympathy for them. Our kids got out—our family got out—and they are still trapped.

But I am still dismayed—even disgusted—at their behavior. And if they think they are exhibiting righteous behavior in all this, they’ve got another think coming.

[Carm_88]

35 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

At the same time, I feel sympathy for both girls (particularly Charlotte).  There's a great deal of sadness underpinning her writing.  There's so many details left unsaid and the tone of her writing me think she's in a lot of emotional pain.  Being caught up in my own personal troubles, at least for me, can leave me pretty oblivious to other peoples' feelings and reactions. 

I think that is where it would be good to have a person to touch base with. Someone outside of all this who could say "You know C, you're obviously hurting; do you think that this is something you want to be public?" 

Charlotte is selfish to have written such a blog. She is young and perhaps it will be something she regrets later in life. That will be her cross to bear. I think they all need some serious family therapy with a psychologist or a psychiatrist because there's something rotten in the Boyer home.  

[refugee]

7 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I think that is where it would be good to have a person to touch base with. Someone outside of all this who could say "You know C, you're obviously hurting; do you think that this is something you want to be public?" 

Charlotte is selfish to have written such a blog. She is young and perhaps it will be something she regrets later in life. That will be her cross to bear. I think they all need some serious family therapy with a psychologist or a psychiatrist because there's something rotten in the Boyer home.  

Definitely not nouthetic counseling. (ETA: I know you did not say “nouthetic” but that is the first thing church people of my acquaintance recommend, so I would assume that’s the type of counseling the Boyers would seek out.) That, for us, was worse than doing nothing. We did find family counseling with a secular counselor healing, so I agree it can be helpful. And “secular” doesn't have to mean devoid of religion. It just means not trained to push patriarchy like Jay Adams’ (father of nouthetic counseling) worldview, from what I remember of his writings and what I’ve read about “biblical” counseling at TWW and what I’ve experienced of counseling at first hand.

[Carm_88]

@refugee I should have made that more clear, but secular was what I meant. The Boyers don't need anymore talk of Jesus. 

[nokidsmom]

OMG, so sad that Charlotte choose to put up a post like that about her mom.  Not a good idea on any day but to do it on Mother's Day especially?  Who on earth thinks it's OK to that?  Seriously, that's just mean.

Look, I had issues with my mother too.    And in the years since her death, I am learning a bit about her background, that sort of explain why she made some of the choices she did regarding me and my sisters.  However not in a million years would I have posted anything publicly.   It took me years to discuss things about her and only with trusted people and strictly in private.  Not blathering the problems all over the internet.  And my Dad would have (figuratively) smacked me down for doing so.  

[adrianne98]

3 hours ago, Gabe said:

I am just imagining all the praise and adulation that would be heaped on J and C if they wrote this post about their Dad instead of their mom...

I will not comment on the family here because that would be disrespectful of me and I promised not to in the beginning.

But if any of you have an ounce of self reflection please ask yourselves if you would be gleefully egging the girls on for being brave and sticking it to the man if they wrote this post about their Dad.

 

While that is a very interesting point, I don't think that anyone here would egg anyone else on for ranting at a parent until they broke down, and publishing their struggles and a vauge description of their mental health history and familial background on mother's day, or father's day.

I think that the gender issue that you have chosen to bring into this discussion stems from the fact that very often when women speak openly about issues with their fathers, it has to do with physical abuse (not to say that mothers cannot also be physically abusive), because of the way that men are taught to bottle up anger and rage. If charlotte was descibing a physically or emotionally abusive mother I would be much more sympathetic. (Emotional neglect can be a form of abuse, but from this blog post that really wasn't what I was getting)  However, she is descibing a woman who sounds tramatized and detached due to something in her past, who is going to therapy to actively become a better mother. Therapy is no joke, it is hard to face your own issues! The idea of her mother breaking down and sobbing because her daughter was ranting at her that she's not good enough is really just a hard image to spin in a positive way. 

[usedbicycle]

@Gabe I think we can all agree that parents of either sex can be extremely damaging to their children. Telling us that we are defending Mrs. Boyer just because she is a woman is pretty insulting. 

That said, there are gradients to bad parenting. It's not the same to say "my parent was violent, manipulative or sexually abusive" and "my parent was aloof and suffered from mood swings". Not minimizing the latter, just putting things into perspective. The girls dont't seem to be afraid of their mother because they felt comfortable enough confronting her behavior and even "shaking sense into her". This conveys the image of a broken, ashamed woman rather than of a feared domestic abuser. It saddens us to see a grown adult with unresolved trauma being publicly shamed as a sinner in need of redemption, by her own children. It sounds condescending at the very least.

If the girls had written the same post, word for word, about their father, and that their father was a mostly silent figure in their lives who wasn't retweeting borderline racist stuff, I can guarantee you we would have felt bad for him too. However, if they had alluded to their father or mother being a controlling, scary, violent domestic abuser, then yes, we would have applauded the girls for speaking out because that takes great courage when living in fear. 

We're only going by what the girls are willing to share online, so I do apologize if there are key elements that would change our point of view. I'll end this by saying that part of becoming an adult is taking responsibility for our own welfare, stopping to blame our flawed parents for any level of unhappiness, and moving on outside the home. I hope that "helping" their mom at home  doesn't become an excuse for failing to have the courage to live their own lives outside of it.

[punkiepie]

After my IFB upbringing, combined with serveral traumatic events that happened very close together, I found myself needing to seeing a real (secular) therapist. One of the issues I had, and still do to some extent, was bottling up how I was feeling until I exploded and/or used unhealthy and unproductive outlets to vent my feelings.  She recommended that when I first realize I’m upset with somone, for me to write out exactly what I wanted to say to them, right then. Then I needed to wait until some of the heightened emotion had ceased and go back and reread it. She told me to ask myself serveral questions as I reread what I wrote- do I still feel this way or was I overreacting? Is there anything I wrote that only serves to hurt the other person and will not bring about any sort of a positive change that I’m hoping will happen? Will saying this to the person cause any further damage or will it help in reconciling the issue? 

And here’s what I realized- the very act of writing how I felt in the moment helped me sort out my feelings on it. Many times I realized that I would want to say hurtful things because I was feeling hurt and wanted them to feel the same way. After a little bit of the original heightened emotion had gone away, I was able to see what I was really upset about and present it in such a way that the other person could receive what I was saying without being immediately so defensive that nothing I said was being taken the way I wanted it to. 

Real therapy give some you the tools to deal with problems that would otherwise because increasingly serious lifelong issues for you.  I’m so grateful for the help I got, not just with that, but in other areas as well.  

[adrianne98]

7 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

That said, there are gradients to bad parenting. It's not the same to say "my parent was violent, manipulative or sexually abusive" and "my parent was aloof and suffered from mood swings". Not minimizing the latter, just putting things into perspective. The girls dont't seem to be afraid of their mother because they felt comfortable enough confronting her behavior and even "shaking sense into her". This conveys the image of a broken, ashamed woman rather than of a feared domestic abuser. It saddens us to see a grown adult with unresolved trauma being publicly shamed as a sinner in need of redemption, by her own children. It sounds condescending at the very least.

 

Yes usedbicycle, this phrasing is so perfect. 

[ladyamylynn]

4 hours ago, Gabe said:

Prove me wrong

What is with this kid always making demands?