Tori Bates - Part 4: Pretty Dresses Hiding Ugly Ideologies

[TatiFish9]

Many people got/get screwed over by fundie lifestyle who do not behave like Tori. It's just the immature aspects of her personality. Marriage, work and ( most likely having her own family) could possibly help in the maturity department. I do think there is something deeper in her that she may be able to cultivate once she's a little further away from her family. As of now, she is a nightmare to watch. My opinion. Thank God her life is more than television.

@neurogirl Tori and Bobby requested to move their wedding up to December before she graduated. The decision to do so was featured on one of the most recent episodes of the show.

 

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Many people got/get screwed over by fundie lifestyle who do not behave like Tori. It's just the immature aspects of her personality. Marriage, work and ( most likely having her own family) could possibly help in the maturity department. I do think there is something deeper in her that she may be able to cultivate once she's a little further away from her family. As of now, she is a nightmare to watch. My opinion. Thank God her life is more than television.

@neurogirl Tori and Bobby requested to move their wedding up to December before she graduated. The decision to do so was featured on one of the most recent episodes of the show.

 

These people almost always have three month engagements and Bobby proposed in September. A December wedding was pretty much a given the moment he decided to propose in September. I seriously doubt that conversation you referenced was the actual conversation where that decision was made. That conversation very likely happened off camera, possibly included a good deal of subtle pressure or manipulation from her parents, and was recreated at a later point to help explain why Tori wasn’t getting her spring wedding after being so adamant about wanting to wait until she graduated. 

Its really, really important to keep in mind that the show is not an accurate depiction of their lives and beliefs in the same way Counting On isn’t necessarily an accurate depiction of the Duggars’ lives and beliefs. There’s a lot that happens off camera that we don’t see and it’s absolutely possible Tori’s behavior was a reaction to that, not to the moments actually shown.

ETA: Basivally, their reality show only shows the reality they want shown - which doesn’t include showing the darker aspects of their lifestyle or Kelly and Gil’s personalities.

[JermajestyDuggar]

That’s why I’m not a huge fan of reality tv. Because there’s not much reality in it. Sure some of it is reality but so much is set up, rehearsed, edited out and reshot that the end result is not very real. 

[BeccaGrim]

I thought it was very telling of Tori when they followed she and Bobby into the car and they were driving away the brief three seconds they showed of them she went "okay, breathe."   That whole thing looked like a special piece of hell for her.  

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

These people almost always have three month engagements and Bobby proposed in September. A December wedding was pretty much a given the moment he decided to propose in September. I seriously doubt that conversation you referenced was the actual conversation where that decision was made. That conversation very likely happened off camera, possibly included a good deal of subtle pressure or manipulation from her parents, and was recreated at a later point to help explain why Tori wasn’t getting her spring wedding after being so adamant about wanting to wait until she graduated. 

Given how shocked her mother and sisters were by Tori telling them she wanted to wait until after graduation and tried to convince her not to wait. They couldn't comprehend that Tori wanted to wait. Even after Tori explained she didn't want to plan a wedding and go to school at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happen. Why couldn't Tori wait until after graduation? What was the big deal? They didn't care what Tori wanted. Who ignores what the person getting married actually wants? We've also already seen Kelly try to push Brandon to propose so it really wouldn't be surprising that she did the same thing again.    

[just_ordinary]

I think it’s sad, that Bobby proposed in September so that the chances of her graduating first and getting a spring wedding got smaller and in the end vanished. Did he feel pressured by her parents- I don’t know, but it was his call in the end. They could have had a longer engagement period though- just because the the Fundie norm is 3 months doesn’t mean you have to stick to it. Wouldn’t that be a “nice testimony” to resist all those urges that cannot be rightfully fulfilled...

I think it is very telling that we don’t see and hear much from them since their wedding. She struck me as rather private as she got older. I hope she can enjoy working for some time just to know that she is capable of doing so and can be more than „just a mom“ (nothing wrong in finding your calling in this though as long as it didn’t need brainwashing and denied opportunities!!) and knowing that she can support herself/her family if she has to.

[VelociRapture]

5 minutes ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Given how shocked her mother and sisters were by Tori telling them she wanted to wait until after graduation and tried to convince her not to wait. They couldn't comprehend that Tori wanted to wait. Even after Tori explained she didn't want to plan a wedding and go to school at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happen. Why couldn't Tori wait until after graduation? What was the big deal? They didn't care what Tori wanted. Who ignores what the person getting married actually wants? We've also already seen Kelly try to push Brandon to propose so it really wouldn't be surprising that she did the same thing again.    

Exactly. I think Kelly (and by extension Gil) are much more involved with the relationships then they let on. I also think they have a tendency to push and prod things along much more than we see too. If I remember right, Kelly literally pulled out a calendar to discuss wedding dates with Brandon and Michael before they were even engaged. If she’s that pushy on the show then how pushy must she be when the cameras aren’t filming?

As for Gil, I don’t buy his “aw shucks” good Dad routine at all. I think he loves his family, but I also think he’s as manipulative of his children as Kelly is. He can’t come across that way though because it’d be creepy as fuck, whereas that type of behavior from Kelly is seen as endearing by a lot of people. Just look at the reaction the Duggars got with how over involved JimBob was shown to be at times.

And how can Tori be expected to pushback on something as big as a wedding date when her parents literally raised her to believe she has to obey them at all times? She has a strong and big personality, but she also appears to love her parents and that type of pressure can be hard for many people to resist.

 

[Carm_88]

When Bobby proposed Tori knew that she wasn't going to get her Spring wedding. Which is unfortunate. I hope that this would cause some contemplation for her and maybe move her away from her parents' religion. I don't think that will happen but it would be nice! 

[nausicaa]

19 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

I see this for Joy but Tori is an older girl for the Bates I think. Michael, Erin, Alyssa, Tori. I think they were the older girls for sure. I'd say through Katie they are older girls.

There's a recent interview with Carlin where she expresses disbelief that she's now one of the "older girls" after looking up to Michael, Erin, and Alyssa for so long and her being seen as a little kid. When they were all minors living together, I don't think Tori and Carlin were included in the older girls moniker. 

53 minutes ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Why couldn't Tori wait until after graduation? What was the big deal? They didn't care what Tori wanted. Who ignores what the person getting married actually wants? We've also already seen Kelly try to push Brandon to propose so it really wouldn't be surprising that she did the same thing again.    

That really, really bothers me. I think Kelly was offended at the idea of one of her daughters putting anything above getting married. I think she really thought Tori would be setting a bad example for younger siblings by "putting off" marriage until after she graduated. 

It's a weird set of values I can't quite wrap my head around. 

[MsSaylor]

I dont disagree with what ya’ll are saying about the wedding happening before Tori graduated but Tori herself was ribbing and prodding Bobby into oblivion to propose to her.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, MsSaylor said:

I dont disagree with what ya’ll are saying about the wedding happening before Tori graduated but Tori herself was ribbing and prodding Bobby into oblivion to propose to her.

It’s possible that Tori wanted a long engagement. But that just doesn’t happen in fundie land. 

[TeaELSee]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It’s possible that Tori wanted a long engagement. But that just doesn’t happen in fundie land. 

I agree, Tori really was (overly) excited about getting engaged, then lost all her enthusiasm when it came to getting married.

[Eternalbluepearl]

It's interesting reading what you are all saying about Kelly and Gil. More than anyone else, these two suck me in so badly. I watch BUB and I come away thinking they are such great parents. Please don't shame me. Rufus knows I shame myself already. 

[candygirl200413]

Does anyone remember if Gil and Kelly did the same thing as Tori and got married during winter break? I know they got while they were in college. 

[lumpentheologie]

5 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

When Bobby proposed Tori knew that she wasn't going to get her Spring wedding. Which is unfortunate. I hope that this would cause some contemplation for her and maybe move her away from her parents' religion. I don't think that will happen but it would be nice! 

It's crazy to me that she apparently has no say in this.  I mean, he's proposing to her, so she gets to answer.  If she knew a longer engagement would be considered 'ungodly' or whatever, she could have just said "No, not now, ask me again in six months!"  But I guess that might give the impression that women don't always have to do whatever their 'authority' wants.  At least Anna Duggar got to wait till she was 20 like she wanted. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

55 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

Does anyone remember if Gil and Kelly did the same thing as Tori and got married during winter break? I know they got while they were in college. 

Gil may have already graduated at that point because he was almost 23 when they got married in dec 87. But Kelly may have been in her last year of school like Tori. 

[nokidsmom]

3 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

It's interesting reading what you are all saying about Kelly and Gil. More than anyone else, these two suck me in so badly. I watch BUB and I come away thinking they are such great parents. Please don't shame me. Rufus knows I shame myself already. 

They are very good at looking like they are great parents.   And making you forget all the reasons why they are not really not all that great.  Amazing way of charming people while doing something manipulative, or downright inconsiderate, etc.

Getting back to Tori, regarding her attitudes as seen on the show.  I don't know if she is a bitchy sort of person or not but given the situation she was raised in, I think it's safe to say that anyone with a strong personality and who knows what she/she wants is going to get steamrolled living with parents like Kelly and Gil.  They clearly want what they want and the kids are really secondary to that, regardless of how hard they try to present themselves as being considerate parents.  They may be truly loving but they are not considerate when it come to listening to their children and seeing them as separate people with their own minds, hopes and goals.    They still try to impose what they think, what they want, what works for them not their kids.

 

 

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I watch BUB and I come away thinking they are such great parents.

Gil charmed a master manipulator, Bill Gothard, into trusting him to the point where it was easy for Gil to stab him in the back. Gil and Kelly are just plain good at putting on a show. They are straight up awful humans, but I got to give them credit for being able to control their image. 

I know people say the Bates kids have more freedom when it comes to courtship, but really I think it is freedom to do only what their parents already approve of. Zach was the exception, but even he was made to feel guilty over kissing before marriage. It doesn't sound like this was what Tori wanted or that she had the freedom to make decisions about her marriage. She had to go along with what her parents wanted for her. Which is probably why she came off as apathetic about her wedding. I hope she finds happiness away from her manipulative and controlling parents. 

[Lurky]

The thing about not waiting til after graduation to get married isn't just about Tori having to juggle wedding planning and college, but also all the extra TV commitments, and then a strong possibility of being pregnant while trying to finish her course (and if not getting pregnant immediately, worrying about being in Michael's situation).

It's completely possible that she both wanted Bobby to propose, because she loves him, but not realising everything that meant - strict 3 months to the wedding, no possibility of changing it. 

I really hate this one-sized-fits the Bateses are doing these days.  They claim their couples set their own rules, but when it comes to it, the daughters, at least, are on a track of Courtship->3 month engagement->huge identical weddings (with slightly different set dressing) with no getting off, except for Carlin, who's being delayed, but once she's engaged, it's the same story.   Even stupid things like Tori wearing her hair up cause family arguments and shaming, so imagine how a conversation about waiting til graduation would go!  I reckon it would be a mix of "Don't you LOVE him?" with "But he will be TEMPTED, how could you do that to him?" etc etc

ETA I wonder if Tori's wedding date was set because they knew they'd have her two sisters wanting to get married this year?  So make her go early, so they can fit in Josie next, this year and then Carlin in winter/early 2019?

[JermajestyDuggar]

Remember that small reception type party they had in Florida with Bobby’s family? It was so cozy, romantic, and most likely not chaotic. Maybe that’s what she really wanted but her parents nixed that early on because that’s not as good for the show. 

I want to add that I think Gil and Kelly (Gil especially) are pushing their children to do things for the show, not their fundie beliefs. I really think money comes first in Gil’s little fundie heart even if he pretends it’s god. 

[TatiFish9]

Tori said she would wait until after graduation to get married. Are we saying reality tv scripted that for her?

Or are we saying that she was always getting married in December because her parents would pressure her to do so? If she had a choice she would get married after graduation.

If so, how do we know this? Without the tv and social media show how do we have a reference point of accountability? 

 

Btw I agree they do this stuff for the show. We see Whitney in pants in pics. The same day arrives on the show and she has changed in to skirt for the shoot. So what do we believe? When and what do we dismiss. Do we go with the things they say on the show when they're convenient for our argument then turn around and say the show is not real when it doesn't?

1 hour ago, Lurky said:

ETA I wonder if Tori's wedding date was set because they knew they'd have her two sisters wanting to get married this year?  So make her go early, so they can fit in Josie next, this year and then Carlin in winter/early 2019?

This makes total since. If they are pushing these kids along and having them completely lie (not stage) that is just ridiculous. 

I think Tori was in agreement. She basically begged that man to marry her. She kept asking him about that ring every visit. I am sure her parents didn't have to push too far. And I also don't think her anxiety about it was staged either. Those were some authentic emotions.

[Kangaroo]

Not a conspiracy-conspiracy theory time.

Gil pushed Bobby to propose and then pushed the short wedding time for  the show.

Look at 2017. Other than Lexi being born in January, they had no pregnancy announcements or new courtships announced by the time they got engaged. The last wedding in the family was Michael's in 2015.

That's 9 months without the content that epople watch on these shows (Weddings and Births).

Back in September, a reasonable assumption could be made that in 2018 you could have a minimum of 3 pregnancies/births (Erin, Alyssa and Whitney all having a third child), and that Carlin and Josie would be in courtships, if not engaged or married. But none of that would be until the next season. (Likely they were unaware of Erin and Alyssa's pregnancies at the time Tori got engaged).

Tori has been courting since November 2016 with no engagement. Forcing a short engagement brings viewers in now, means a Tori pregnancy is also entirely possible in the next season. You then now also easily fit in Carlin and Josie engagement and wedding content, plus the two recent arrivals.

Tori getting married quickly was the only ratings grab they had at the time. Now they have her wedding and at least two births to show, plus the potential for so much more to keep people watching. 

 

 

[JillyO]

7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Gil may have already graduated at that point because he was almost 23 when they got married in dec 87. But Kelly may have been in her last year of school like Tori. 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Kelly was a year behind Gil. Wasn't she the TA in his chemistry class?

[Carm_88]

I jut think Gill and Kelly are conniving. Did they push a marriage because it was for the best for the show? That I don't know. I do think that they pushed Tori out of her comfort zone for the show. I think it's likely that they will continue to do that unless she goes far, far away.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

I jut think Gill and Kelly are conniving. Did they push a marriage because it was for the best for the show? That I don't know. I do think that they pushed Tori out of her comfort zone for the show. I think it's likely that they will continue to do that unless she goes far, far away.  

She would probably like living down in Florida with Bobby. The family would visit occasionally but then they will leave her in peace for a month or two at a time. And they can’t push her into doing things for the show she does not want if they are far away. But their visits would be full of pushing her into irritating situations.