Tori Bates - Part 4: Pretty Dresses Hiding Ugly Ideologies

[haroldtheyrefundies]

13 minutes ago, pandora said:

Heartbreaking indeed  It's always obvious on the little one's face when they're devastated to see their mom leave them, I wonder how the sister moms feel about it long term. Michael did seem sad to be leaving Callie when she married, I wonder if she or any of the other girls recognize what they did as parenting.

And if I might add, This is what happens when the family says that when the girl gets married they're losing a family member (their daughter), but gaining another (the groom). I'm sure for Jud he probably doesn't understand what that means and thought that she was actually leaving the family. 

[Lurky]

Fundy weddings are hard enough with the weeping children mourning losing their real mothers, but it's super-uncomfortable when it's a Tori/Joy Duggar, who really doesn't want the wedding they have to have.  In the real world, they would have so many choices - elope, destination wedding, registry office, small do etc etc, but in Fundy world they have to stick with a template that includes 100 rituals that are NOT optional, especially for the TV families. 

And then, when they don't Keep Sweet, they face a barrage of criticism.  I said this about Joy, and I think it about Tori - being grumpy is something they're feeling, and I am really pleased their spirits aren't crushed so much that they have a fake smile plastered on their faces.

(I do think it's telling that both Joy and Tori have grown up not being counted as the Older Girls in their families, and I guess have a bit more leeway in actively expressing emotions, because they've been parented by sister-moms, who (in general) seem much more affectionate to their siblings than their birth parents are - and the sister-moms have given them more leeway than they themselves had)

Ultimately, I can't blame someone for being uncomfortable and awkward in a celebration they obvious don't want, and are being forced into - especially when they are Fundy maidens who haven't been allowed to have healthy expressions of their feelings.

[melon]

4 hours ago, Kelsey said:

I laugh uncontrollably when nervous. I cannot make it stop and it's awful. She said that she wanted to stop laughing.

I do,too.It was funny seeing Chad,Erin,Trace trying not to laugh..and Kelly ,too.

[BunnyBee]

4 hours ago, Lurky said:

Fundy weddings are hard enough with the weeping children mourning losing their real mothers, but it's super-uncomfortable when it's a Tori/Joy Duggar, who really doesn't want the wedding they have to have.  In the real world, they would have so many choices - elope, destination wedding, registry office, small do etc etc, but in Fundy world they have to stick with a template that includes 100 rituals that are NOT optional, especially for the TV families. 

And then, when they don't Keep Sweet, they face a barrage of criticism.  I said this about Joy, and I think it about Tori - being grumpy is something they're feeling, and I am really pleased their spirits aren't crushed so much that they have a fake smile plastered on their faces.

(I do think it's telling that both Joy and Tori have grown up not being counted as the Older Girls in their families, and I guess have a bit more leeway in actively expressing emotions, because they've been parented by sister-moms, who (in general) seem much more affectionate to their siblings than their birth parents are - and the sister-moms have given them more leeway than they themselves had)

Ultimately, I can't blame someone for being uncomfortable and awkward in a celebration they obvious don't want, and are being forced into - especially when they are Fundy maidens who haven't been allowed to have healthy expressions of their feelings.

YES LURKY YES! Tori was miserable through this whole season for the following reasons:

1. Felt obviously awkward, nervous and uncomfortable during her filmed engagement which lasted an entire day. Imagine not liking being the center of attention and being in this situation, when they are told this is one of the most important days of their life.

2. Hated wedding planning and everyone around her was constantly wanting to talk about it, even when it was obvious she didnt want to discuss it. 

3. Had activities planned during HER bridal shower that she didnt want to do and didnt fit her personality

4. After explicitly telling Kelly she didn't want to be on stage, and Kelly knowing her daughter is shy and hates being the center of attention (this is may be to much credit to Kelly actually) put her on stage and threw her a massive bridal shower. The cringiness of that whole episode gave me the chills. And then they made her apologize during one of the TH to the people that came to a bridal shower she probably didnt want in the first place. 

5. Going to her bridal appointment and everyone telling her the dress she loves isnt that great and to pick the white a-line dress. The disappointment on her face was saddening in that moment. Thankfully she stuck to what she liked.

6. Having a massive rehearsal dinner and publicly arguing with your husband-to-be over a damn braid and everyone commenting on said argument. 

7. Then to top it all off having a huge wedding and having to display your first kiss for 500 of your closest friends and family to witness and judge. Then to giggle nervously during her vows. Ugh and the awkwardness of Bobby's song and Tori having this like half smile on her face because you could tell that she felt embarrassed. 

I am so glad for Tori that this is over. I have a very similar personality to Tori and Josie Bates and cant help but have some serious sympathy for them. Especially because they did not sign up for this circus. 

[3SecondSideHugger]

49 minutes ago, BunnyBee said:

YES LURKY YES! Tori was miserable through this whole season for the following reasons:

1. Felt obviously awkward, nervous and uncomfortable during her filmed engagement which lasted an entire day. Imagine not liking being the center of attention and being in this situation, when they are told this is one of the most important days of their life.

2. Hated wedding planning and everyone around her was constantly wanting to talk about it, even when it was obvious she didnt want to discuss it. 

3. Had activities planned during HER bridal shower that she didnt want to do and didnt fit her personality

4. After explicitly telling Kelly she didn't want to be on stage, and Kelly knowing her daughter is shy and hates being the center of attention (this is may be to much credit to Kelly actually) put her on stage and threw her a massive bridal shower. The cringiness of that whole episode gave me the chills. And then they made her apologize during one of the TH to the people that came to a bridal shower she probably didnt want in the first place. 

5. Going to her bridal appointment and everyone telling her the dress she loves isnt that great and to pick the white a-line dress. The disappointment on her face was saddening in that moment. Thankfully she stuck to what she liked.

6. Having a massive rehearsal dinner and publicly arguing with your husband-to-be over a damn braid and everyone commenting on said argument. 

7. Then to top it all off having a huge wedding and having to display your first kiss for 500 of your closest friends and family to witness and judge. Then to giggle nervously during her vows. Ugh and the awkwardness of Bobby's song and Tori having this like half smile on her face because you could tell that she felt embarrassed. 

I am so glad for Tori that this is over. I have a very similar personality to Tori and Josie Bates and cant help but have some serious sympathy for them. Especially because they did not sign up for this circus. 

I agree, this all seemed so uncomfortable for her in every stage. At my own wedding, I look stone cold mad in the ceremony pics because I was so emotional that I think I shut down haha

[TatiFish9]

On 4/27/2018 at 10:33 AM, BeccaGrim said:

Does anyone else think it looks like Bobby's parents are always a little bit annoyed with Tori? His dad tried to say something to Tori on the walk outside after the wedding. She ignored him and I think he rolled his eyes. 

I noticed this, especially during the proposal segment. Also, Kelly tried to hug her and express what seemed to be genuine emotions immediately before the wedding processional, but Tori pushed her along, telling her to stay in line and showed no reciprocity.

I don't know what her personality is truly like, but what is shown on tv is a totally rude and disrespectful person. Both Bobby and his parents have been visibly annoyed by her on at least two occasions and not just during wedding plan.

I'm all for people being themselves but I would not want to come within 10 feet of that attitude. It's ridiculous to me.

To be clear, I do not believe women should constantly be of cheerful countenance, but Tori seems to disregard other people's feelings to too much for me. A little courtesy goes a long way for both men and women.

In her defense, we do not know the entire story or why she comes off like this.

Honestly, I am glad her major storyline is over. If they never featured she and Bobby again, I would be okay with it. If she doesn't like the cameras, I don't blame her for avoiding the show.

 

[TatiFish9]

On 4/14/2018 at 4:50 PM, stardust said:

Any predictions on when Tori will announce a pregnancy? There should be a bump watch! It's been about four months since the wedding so I suspect it could be a matter of days until we hear something. 

My first thought on this pic is that she is pregnant, but there is no confirmation. Maybe she isn't. She looks so much like Kelly Jo right here.

 

 

[Lurky]

@BunnyBee Yes, 100 times yes!

3 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Also, Kelly tried to hug her and express what seemed to be genuine emotions immediately before the wedding processional, but Tori pushed her along, telling her to stay in line and showed no reciprocity.

But why should she let Kelly mess up the schedule to tell her "genuine emotions" - ie make things all about Kelly?  Tori is child 7 of 19, Michael will have been in charge of her, and as soon as she was old enough, she was handed over siblings to sister-mom.  The idea she will have had a special, unique, loving relationship with Kelly is impossible, because it's not just about the number of siblings, it's about the fact they're so close together, so there will always have been newborns who need attention.  

This comes up so much, whenever Fundy maidens, who have been blanket trained, and trammeled, denied proper education and any choices other than "get married and have babies" and "keep sweet", don't behave like perfect angels on TV.  Especially, as @BunnyBee says, Tori 100% seems the type who doesn't WANT to be on TV anyway.  The idea that she should be grateful and fake-smile, and act happy for things she blatantly doesn't want is pretty shitty.  

It confuses me that every time there's an episode where a Bates/Duggar girl is forced to do things she absolutely doesn't want to be doing, in front of cameras she doesn't like, there are FJers who will criticise HER, rather than her shitty parents who are forcing her to perform like a trained seal, and fit into a pattern that they don't even care she doesn't want.  It's like Jessa being criticised for not caring about her reception, when it was obvious it wasn't her who wanted 500 people - or Joy being criticised for not being happy about the stupid dress shopping. 

It's not a case of uppity, rude girls acting up, and being ungrateful for their princess wedding they've wanted all their lives - it's young women who have no choices at all in what they've been brought up to believe is the biggest day of their life.  And then when they do express opinions, they are picked on and criticised because what they want isn't good enough for their families, and who are being forced to be on television, while all this is happening.  These aren't people who've chased fame, they're people who can't even have moments like their engagement be private, and whose family criticism is broadcast for the world to see.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I hated wedding dress shopping with a fiery passion. I found nothing when I went with my mom and bridesmaids. I hated being the center of attention. I hated everyone looking at me and telling me that they loved the dress that I hated. I went alone later on and found a dress. I only went with a group because they talked me into it. I’m sure I came across as an entitled, snotty brat. But I was just completely uncomfortable. I kept my wedding small but I still felt uncomfortable as the center of attention. I was relieved when it was the reception and people could mingle and not focus their attention on me and my husband.

I want to add that I’m not shy at all. I’m not even an introvert. I love socializing one on one and in small groups where no one is really the center of attention. I have lots of friends and enjoy socializing with them. I just HATE being the center of attention. 

[Kangaroo]

I haven't seen the recent episodes so I can't really comment on her behaviour except from what you all have said. It sounds an awful lot like you're all describing Michael, except that Tori isn't as willing or able to act nice on the surface every time someone in her family walks all over her. Vaguely reminiscent of Alyssa too, but Alyssa got the courtship and wedding outside of BuB and moved away so she hasn't had so much of her life disrupted.

Makes me wonder what it will be like if she does have a baby. Its not sounding like she's super keen on half her family, let alone a film crew in a room with her. I'd be super keen for sarcastic woman in labour telling off her idiot father for showing up and making a bad joke, followed by some very unchristian cursing. A girl can dream, though!

 

[JordynDarby5]

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

@BunnyBee Yes, 100 times yes!

But why should she let Kelly mess up the schedule to tell her "genuine emotions" - ie make things all about Kelly?  Tori is child 7 of 19, Michael will have been in charge of her, and as soon as she was old enough, she was handed over siblings to sister-mom.  The idea she will have had a special, unique, loving relationship with Kelly is impossible, because it's not just about the number of siblings, it's about the fact they're so close together, so there will always have been newborns who need attention.  

This comes up so much, whenever Fundy maidens, who have been blanket trained, and trammeled, denied proper education and any choices other than "get married and have babies" and "keep sweet", don't behave like perfect angels on TV.  Especially, as @BunnyBee says, Tori 100% seems the type who doesn't WANT to be on TV anyway.  The idea that she should be grateful and fake-smile, and act happy for things she blatantly doesn't want is pretty shitty.  

It confuses me that every time there's an episode where a Bates/Duggar girl is forced to do things she absolutely doesn't want to be doing, in front of cameras she doesn't like, there are FJers who will criticise HER, rather than her shitty parents who are forcing her to perform like a trained seal, and fit into a pattern that they don't even care she doesn't want.  It's like Jessa being criticised for not caring about her reception, when it was obvious it wasn't her who wanted 500 people - or Joy being criticised for not being happy about the stupid dress shopping. 

It's not a case of uppity, rude girls acting up, and being ungrateful for their princess wedding they've wanted all their lives - it's young women who have no choices at all in what they've been brought up to believe is the biggest day of their life.  And then when they do express opinions, they are picked on and criticised because what they want isn't good enough for their families, and who are being forced to be on television, while all this is happening.  These aren't people who've chased fame, they're people who can't even have moments like their engagement be private, and whose family criticism is broadcast for the world to see.

Yes! Why does she have to do stuff she doesn't want to do. She didn't want a wedding she said she didn't care about any of the details. So yes, let's show her not wanting to decide on a wedding cake because she doesn't care. Let's show her at a big bridal shower that she doesn't want and put her on stage when she says she doesn't like that and freaked out enough that she couldn't say anything. Thank you Kelly for putting your daughter on stage and on the spot. Thank you Gil and Kelly for a whole season of forcing your daughter to do things she doesn't want to do. 

I am curious how it feels to suddenly have attention from your mom. How much attention or care did Kelly give Tori before she was courting? I don't imagine much beyond making sure she does stuff in the house. Tori gets engaged and suddenly Kelly wants to talk about emotions. How emotional it is for her (Kelly).       

[JermajestyDuggar]

Kelly seems to enjoy her adult children and gives them attention. I just wonder at what age Kelly suddenly starts showering them with attention. Right at 18? Or maybe it’s different for everyone. She probably made Michael a mini adult at 9 so that’s probably when it started for her. 

[Jana814]

6 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Kelly seems to enjoy her adult children and gives them attention. I just wonder at what age Kelly suddenly starts showering them with attention. Right at 18? Or maybe it’s different for everyone. She probably made Michael a mini adult at 9 so that’s probably when it started for her. 

I think Michael was her "right hand man" from the time she was a child. 

[TatiFish9]

 @Lurky this is my opinion formed over time of Tori. It's just that the wedding episodes were unbearable adding to an already established idea about who she might be as a person. Sorry not sorry. I'll give people a day or two to be bitchy. It happens to us all. And that is what I said about Joy Anna. She was horrible when searching for her dress but for the rest of the episodes she seemed to be chill.

Tori in my opinion is not. I have seen her be ridiculous in various ways (***in my opinion****) and not just during her wedding time.

Also, no one is above criticism no matter how many excuses they have. I've tried to give her the benefit of the doubt so many times. I wish her the best in her career and always hope she will be able to use it when others say she will just be another fundie wife.

I do believe my assessment of her tv personality is fair.

[TatiFish9]

30 minutes ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Yes! Why does she have to do stuff she doesn't want to do.  [···]  

There are ways to handle being forced into situations without being an out right brat to almost everyone involved. Tori does this consistently! Based on what we see on tv, Tori is a jerk. 

There was even one episode where the family was going somewhere (before they were engaged and therefore before the wedding). Bobby planned to surprise Tori once the family got there. She thought he was not coming. Because the other girls had their guys she became sulky and non cooperative. Come on now! What is the excuse there for that behavior towards others? I could see if her parents said Bobby couldn't come but Evan and the other men were allowed. That would be uncool. But this was a decision her man is handle and she is throwing a low key tantrum. Come on now. I don't think anyone is unfairly attacking Tori. She has earned these strong opinions. And that was just one example among several.

[KelseyAnn]

12 hours ago, BunnyBee said:

YES LURKY YES! Tori was miserable through this whole season for the following reasons:

And then they made her apologize during one of the TH to the people that came to a bridal shower she probably didnt want in the first place. 

 

1

What on Earth did she have to apologize for?

[BeccaGrim]

21 hours ago, Lurky said:

I do think it's telling that both Joy and Tori have grown up not being counted as the Older Girls in their families,

I see this for Joy but Tori is an older girl for the Bates I think. Michael, Erin, Alyssa, Tori. I think they were the older girls for sure. I'd say through Katie they are older girls.

[Lurky]

37 minutes ago, BeccaGrim said:

I see this for Joy but Tori is an older girl for the Bates I think. Michael, Erin, Alyssa, Tori. I think they were the older girls for sure. I'd say through Katie they are older girls.

Oh, that's interesting.  I see the "older ones" in the Bateses are Zach down to Alyssa, and then Tori down to Katie as the next level down - then the 3 boys as a unit, the 3 youngest girls, and the two "little ones".  (Even though there's the relatively bigger gap between Carlin & Josie, Jackson & Warden and Addie & Ellie, it seems like they group by gender quite strongly. 

ETA I just realised I feel like this because of how Alyssa basically escaped so young - weird to think she's just 1 year older than Tori, but has 3 kids! But I think about Tori as being in the same way as Joy Duggar wasn't in the same bracket as Jana/Jill/Jessa/Jinger.   But that could also be because Tori is so much more retiring than some of the others.

[TatiFish9]

I also consider Tori one of the middle girls. She is the oldest of them. I remember after Michael left, they were talking about how they (she, Carlin, Josie and Katie) are the older girls now. It was such a cute sentiment spoken by Josie. It was almost as if they were graduating or experiencing a rites of passage.

On another (similar) note, I was shocked to see Katie has posted to her IG twice in one month. They're actually letting her have an open social media without courting? I noticed the same for Josie. Shortly after it was announced she had a friend, Kelton. I wonder if she is following the same trend. Hope not. 

 

[TeaELSee]

5 hours ago, Lurky said:

Oh, that's interesting.  I see the "older ones" in the Bateses are Zach down to Alyssa, and then Tori down to Katie as the next level down - then the 3 boys as a unit, the 3 youngest girls, and the two "little ones".  (Even though there's the relatively bigger gap between Carlin & Josie, Jackson & Warden and Addie & Ellie, it seems like they group by gender quite strongly

The episode when Alyssa came home wearing her “Bun in the oven” t-shirt to announce she was pregnant they interviewed Zach and his reaction about her being pregnant.

Zach said it was weird because he still thinks of her as a little kid, she never made it to big kid status. (I’m paraphrasing) 

[JermajestyDuggar]

31 minutes ago, TeaELSee said:

The episode when Alyssa came home wearing her “Bun in the oven” t-shirt to announce she was pregnant they interviewed Zach and his reaction about her being pregnant.

Zach said it was weird because he still thinks of her as a little kid, she never made it to big kid status. (I’m paraphrasing) 

To be fair she got married at 19 so she was still a kid. Sorry guys I see all teens as kids. Get off my lawn!

[JordynDarby5]

 He's also her older brother. They often always still see their little sisters no matter how old the get.   

[JillyO]

I remember in the first season of BUB, there was an interview with Lawson and Nathan in which they said something along the lines of "I can't believe Alyssa is going to be a mom. She was always one of the middle kids."

[Illmarryyoujana]

I would try not to be so harsh of Tori. She hasn’t had a normal life being a fundamentalist and then having her late adolescence shown on television. We can’t expect her emotional maturity to be at a high functioning level when she wasn’t allowed to express her emotions her entire life. She may very well not even want to be on camera anymore and doesn’t know she’s allowed to say no. I spent age 11-23 under the care of my aunt. She was highly manipulative and expected me to act 100% appreciative at all times. Negative emotions weren’t to be expressed and neither were my opinions, of which I have many. She was also very outwardly cheery, yet cold at the same time. Needless to say, a lot of people thought I was a high maintenance brat during those years because I was so highly sensitive and also unable to accept affection. That wasn’t me to my core, but instead a reflection of my surroundings. 

[neurogirl]

@BunnyBee In addition to your excellent points, Tori then also had to contend with at least one older brother who told her if she didn't have Gothard curls on her wedding day she would "regret it for the rest of her life." 

AND she didn't even want to get married in December! She wanted to get married after she graduated and finished her schooling! And Kelly Jo, even though she went to college herself and met Gil there, was completely dismissive!

Add to that the common occurrence of wedding planning bringing many emotions and dramas to the forefront for couples/families. I don't have UP so I don't know how Tori comes across, but even if she is rude, she still got totally screwed over by the fundie lifestyle. In so many ways.