Tori Bates - Part 4: Pretty Dresses Hiding Ugly Ideologies

[Audrey2]

I'm hoping for a earlier November due date. So far, I've avoided celebrating my Thanksgiving week birthday with a fundy. According to a chart on an old Priscilla and David Waller thread, my birthday is one of the top 15 least common birthdays of the year, and I want to keep it that way!

[candygirl200413]

So I know that supposedly Gil and Kelly pay for the first semester but how is the rest paid? I guess it's confusing for me in a sense for these fundies particularly to get a degree when for the most part it won't be used.

[nausicaa]

26 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

I guess it's confusing for me in a sense for these fundies particularly to get a degree when for the most part it won't be used.

I think they view college for their kids in a way that people in the 50s viewed college for middle and upper class women. It was a nice, self-improving thing to do for a few years after high school to pass the time before getting married. And if you actually finish and get your degree, whelp, what a cool little piece of trivia you have for cocktail parties. 

I'm not completely opposed to it within the strictures of Fundie life. Yes, I would totally prefer that they attended real state universities with actual math, science, and history requirements and had to live on their own for a few years before marrying. But I know that isn't going to happen. So at least this way they get exposed to a little bit more education and it seems to delay marriage by at least a year or two. And at least the education, early childhood development, and music degrees can be used when homeschooling.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, JillyO said:

So Tori more than likely got pregnant on her second cycle after the wedding. That's not waiting. That's getting pregnant super fast.

ETA: I guess if she's due at the very end of November, it could have been her third cyle, but even so: super fast.

It’s really not that quick when you consider that many young and healthy couples conceive within six months if they aren’t using protection - I think the stats are around 60% of couples conceive within three cycles and 80% conceive within six cycles. Not to mention how fast her siblings (other than Michael) have all conceived as well:

- Zach and Whit conceived Bradley sometime in January 2014, likely one or two cycles after their wedding. I don’t remember her due date with Bradley, but I think she was about a week overdue with him.

- Erin and Chad conceived their first pregnancy in January 2014 as well, though that ended in miscarriage not long after. They likely took two or three cycles to conceive.

- Alyssa and John probably conceived Allie in mid or late July 2014, about two months after their wedding. So, again, probably two or three cycles.

Even women with abnormal cycles can conceive within a few months. I don’t ovulate until the 30 day range, but I still conceived two cycles in a row (partly thanks to OPKs, which I felt were needed because of my cycle lengths.) My first pregnancy was conceived during our first cycle trying and our first successful pregnancy was conceived in the cycle immediately following my miscarriage. 

[HarleyQuinn]

A Bori pregnancy.

Spoiler

 

[BunnyBee]

Even though this was my number one guess I am still feeling underwhelmed for some reason lol 

[feministxtian]

courtships, engagements, weddings, babies...that's all these people have to look forward to for the rest of their lives...how dull.

[freethemall]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

It’s really not that quick when you consider that many young and healthy couples conceive within six months if they aren’t using protection - I think the stats are around 60% of couples conceive within three cycles and 80% conceive within six cycles. Not to mention how fast her siblings (other than Michael) have all conceived as well:

- Zach and Whit conceived Bradley sometime in January 2014, likely one or two cycles after their wedding. I don’t remember her due date with Bradley, but I think she was about a week overdue with him.

- Erin and Chad conceived their first pregnancy in January 2014 as well, though that ended in miscarriage not long after. They likely took two or three cycles to conceive.

- Alyssa and John probably conceived Allie in mid or late July 2014, about two months after their wedding. So, again, probably two or three cycles.

Even women with abnormal cycles can conceive within a few months. I don’t ovulate until the 30 day range, but I still conceived two cycles in a row (partly thanks to OPKs, which I felt were needed because of my cycle lengths.) My first pregnancy was conceived during our first cycle trying and our first successful pregnancy was conceived in the cycle immediately following my miscarriage. 

I think the point is that they clearly didn't do anything deliberate to wait and enjoy each other on their own before jumping in to have babies. I would say anything less than one year of marriage to conceive is quick - the girl just lost her virginity and moved out of the house for the first time, I wonder if they've even had their first big fight yet. In comparison, I had my first baby 14 years after losing my virginity, 11 years after moving out of the house to go to college, 4 years after getting married. It's a lot to take all those steps all in one year, plus they'll likely be moving to Nashville during her pregnancy.

[JoylessAnna]

BoRi Name Predictions

Boy: I am totally in the Robert Ellis "Robbie" IV camp. Was thinking about it on the drive home from work today. IIRC, Bobby's dad is Rob; his grandfather is Bob.

If they have a girl (although I'm feeling this will be a boy), I'm thinking a trendy name with Tori's middle name, e.g. Ava Layne.

[JillyO]

Just now, VelociRapture said:

It’s really not that quick when you consider that many young and healthy couples conceive within six months if they aren’t using protection - I think the stats are around 60% of couples conceive within three cycles and 80% conceive within six cycles. Not to mention how fast her siblings (other than Michael) have all conceived as well:

- Zach and Whit conceived Bradley sometime in January 2014, likely one or two cycles after their wedding. I don’t remember her due date with Bradley, but I think she was about a week overdue with him.

- Erin and Chad conceived their first pregnancy in January 2014 as well, though that ended in miscarriage not long after. They likely took two or three cycles to conceive.

- Alyssa and John probably conceived Allie in mid or late July 2014, about two months after their wedding. So, again, probably two or three cycles.

Even women with abnormal cycles can conceive within a few months. I don’t ovulate until the 30 day range, but I still conceived two cycles in a row (partly thanks to OPKs, which I felt were needed because of my cycle lengths.) My first pregnancy was conceived during our first cycle trying and our first successful pregnancy was conceived in the cycle immediately following my miscarriage. 

I didn't say they were the magical unicorns of fertility who got pregnant faster than anyone ever before. Just that... they still got pregnant really fast and definitely didn't delay pregnancy. So.

[VelociRapture]

4 minutes ago, JillyO said:

I didn't say they were the magical unicorns of fertility who got pregnant faster than anyone ever before. Just that... they still got pregnant really fast and definitely didn't delay pregnancy. So.

Your comment did come across to me as thinking they are abnormally fertile or something, so I apologize that I misinterpreted. 

But yes, I agree it’s likely they didn’t wait to start trying. There’s always a possibility that one of these second gen Bates or Duggars will do things differently (as Jinger appears to have done), but I pretty much just assume each couple starts trying immediately at this point.

[feministxtian]

they aren't "trying"...they're young, horny and going at it like rabbits. 

[TatiFish9]

12 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

So I know that supposedly Gil and Kelly pay for the first semester but how is the rest paid? I guess it's confusing for me in a sense for these fundies particularly to get a degree when for the most part it won't be used.

My thoughts exactly. The other day the idea that Crown College is basically a "glorfied finishing school" came to mind. The quote comes from the movie Mona Lisa Smile where the main character, played by Julia Roberts, realizes that no matter how brilliant her female students are, the majority of them will graduate and become wives and mothers never using their education for careers. This is exactly on the lines and time period of what @nausicaa has mentioned.

[TatiFish9]

11 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I'm not completely opposed to it within the strictures of Fundie life. Yes, I would totally prefer that they attended real state universities with actual math, science, and history requirements and had to live on their own for a few years before marrying. But I know that isn't going to happen. So at least this way they get exposed to a little bit more education and it seems to delay marriage by at least a year or two. And at least the education, early childhood development, and music degrees can be used when homeschooling.

I am not sure I entirely agree. All schools like Crown College do is ensure the next generation of Fundiedom is solidified. Going off to true academic programs would be the catalyst to breaking all this rigid IBLP mess up which is why the parents have such tight control over the kids decision to stay near. God forbid these kidults should experience anything else besides building a pseudo army for Christ. Not the Christ of the Bible, but the one they've made up in their minds. It's amazing how religious institutions across the board are usually just storefront coverups of aiding the continuation of certain cultural practices and ideology. I hope Katie gets her nursing degree and runs for the hills. 

 

[ColeJo]

8 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

My thoughts exactly. The other day the idea that Crown College is basically a "glorfied finishing school" came to mind. The quote comes from the movie Mona Lisa Smile where the main character, played by Julia Roberts, realizes that no matter how brilliant her female students are, the majority of them will graduate and become wives and mothers never using their education for careers. This is exactly on the lines and time period of what @nausicaa has mentioned.

I was going to bring that up when I read the reply, I just didn't get to it. I am genuinely surprised when I look at my life. My parents are pretty traditional and conservative, yet they encouraged me to go to college and focus on that. They never said I couldn't pursue relationships, they just want me to finish college. 

I know this is true for most families, but comparing to the Bates family, my parents are pretty progressive!

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 hours ago, feministxtian said:

they aren't "trying"...they're young, horny and going at it like rabbits. 

That’s why I don’t say “trying” when they are newlyweds. Because they are just having lots and lots of sex. The more sex you have the more likely you are to hit the window of fertility. So unless the groom has a job where he is out of town for a few days or a week a month, they are probably having sexual very regularly. 

This is different than myself for example. My husband and I had been having sex for years before we actually started “trying.” Which meant we purposely had sex around the time of ovulation. When we first started having sex we were young and had plenty. After years of being together it becomes a little less often. So you have to intentionally try to hit that window of ovulation. This is probably why we think fundies get pregnant so quickly. Because it’s unlikely they miss the window of ovulation each month. 

Now their subsequent pregnancies are not like this because they have a child or children to distract them and exhaust them. So they may miss the window a month or more.

[VelociRapture]

I’ve always been of the opinion that you’re technically “trying” if you aren’t taking steps to prevent a pregnancy from occurring - that can mean things like birth control, pulling out, condoms, and NFP. So with that thought process, these newlyweds are “trying” because it’s very likely they aren’t trying to prevent a pregnancy from happening.

But I do agree there’s a difference between simply not trying to prevent a pregnancy and purposely timing sex so you hit your fertile window. It’s entirely possible some of these couples did purposely time it, but it’s also possible they’re just normal newlyweds who are enjoying their time together as well.

[JermajestyDuggar]

21 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I’ve always been of the opinion that you’re technically “trying” if you aren’t taking steps to prevent a pregnancy from occurring - that can mean things like birth control, pulling out, condoms, and NFP. So with that thought process, these newlyweds are “trying” because it’s very likely they aren’t trying to prevent a pregnancy from happening.

But I do agree there’s a difference between simply not trying to prevent a pregnancy and purposely timing sex so you hit your fertile window. It’s entirely possible some of these couples did purposely time it, but it’s also possible they’re just normal newlyweds who are enjoying their time together as well.

I have always thought of it as varying degrees. Like “not trying not preventing” is a thing. Where you may not be taking ovulation tests or tracking you body temperature in order to detect fertility. You’re just having sex whenever you feel like it. 

And then of course there is the next level where you are taking medications like clomid and timing sex. Or just having much more sex than usual in order to catch your ovulation window. 

[singsingsing]

They could be trying, too. Like actually trying. As in tracking their cycles with the goal of getting pregnant as soon as possible immediately after they get married. Given the status boost they get from a very quick post-marriage pregnancy, and the fact that this is literally what they've been raised to believe is their single overarching goal in life, I really wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them began actively trying as soon as they got married.

[Joyfully_Unavailable]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I really wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them began actively trying as soon as they got married.

This makes me a bit sad for some reason. From no physical intimacy at all directly into trying to have a baby it seems like some of them may skip that stress-free bonding of just having sex for pleasure and intimacy. I don’t want to knock couples who do truly want to have a baby right away, it just seems like they’re missing out a little if that’s their focus straight out of the gate. 

[nausicaa]

On 5/12/2018 at 1:24 AM, TatiFish9 said:

I am not sure I entirely agree. All schools like Crown College do is ensure the next generation of Fundiedom is solidified. Going off to true academic programs would be the catalyst to breaking all this rigid IBLP mess up which is why the parents have such tight control over the kids decision to stay near. God forbid these kidults should experience anything else besides building a pseudo army for Christ. Not the Christ of the Bible, but the one they've made up in their minds. It's amazing how religious institutions across the board are usually just storefront coverups of aiding the continuation of certain cultural practices and ideology. I hope Katie gets her nursing degree and runs for the hills. 

 

Of course I would rather see them go off to a real academic program. But that's not going to happen. So the options fr the daughters are 1. Stay around the house as Kelly's personal nanny, chef, and maid or 2. Go to Crown and meet some new people (some of whom may be questioning their Fundie beliefs) and perhaps get a degree in something like cosmetology that may help them support themselves financially if they choose to break away.  

I don't like Crown. I think it's a joke of a school. But under the choices they are given, I prefer it to option #1. 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

On 5/11/2018 at 1:00 PM, VelociRapture said:

*SNIP*

Even women with abnormal cycles can conceive within a few months.... My first pregnancy was conceived during our first cycle trying and our first successful pregnancy was conceived in the cycle immediately following my miscarriage. 

out of sheer curiosity - for any fundie-snark mommas who care to share - about how long after a pregnancy ended (via live birth or otherwise) did your cycles start back, and were they the "same" as before? have y'all's experiences been "predictable" enough to conceive again on the first cycle? 

[VelociRapture]

29 minutes ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

out of sheer curiosity - for any fundie-snark mommas who care to share - about how long after a pregnancy ended (via live birth or otherwise) did your cycles start back, and were they the "same" as before? have y'all's experiences been "predictable" enough to conceive again on the first cycle? 

Spoiler so people can skip easily if they aren’t interested.  

Spoiler

For me, I’m not entirely sure because I was too upset to really track properly. I was only about 6 weeks when I miscarried on February 27, 2016 (about a week after my nephew was born) and I had a positive OPK on April 23rd, when I likely conceived my daughter - so an 8 week window between my loss and ovulation as opposed to about a 4 week window between my period and ovulating the first time around (I don’t remember exactly, just that I had my period during the first day or two of our Honeymoon and that I ovulated around the Super Bowl.) I ovulated around CD32 the first time, so I think I started using OPKs around that time the second cycle. I haven’t had a non-hormonal birth control period for over a decade - I got pregnant twice in a row right after coming off of it and didn’t have a period naturally after giving birth.

As far as I know, it’s different for every woman. I wouldn’t be at all shocked to hear that some women don’t experience any timing fluctuation at all. I do recall reading that you tend to be more fertile in the cycle following a loss, but I honestly don’t know how true that really is. There are definitely women who have conceived in the month or two after giving birth though. That’s why Doctors tend to ask whether a woman is pregnant at her 6 week followup appointment.

 

[mydoggoskeeper]

12 hours ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

out of sheer curiosity - for any fundie-snark mommas who care to share - about how long after a pregnancy ended (via live birth or otherwise) did your cycles start back, and were they the "same" as before? have y'all's experiences been "predictable" enough to conceive again on the first cycle? 

 I have a fairly regularly 26-28 day cycle.  I miscarried at 12 weeks and had a D&C.   It took about a month and a half to get my period back.  It was a normal period but I did (unusually) spot for a few days prior to ovulation after my first period.  

[Melissa1977]

23 hours ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

out of sheer curiosity - for any fundie-snark mommas who care to share - about how long after a pregnancy ended (via live birth or otherwise) did your cycles start back, and were they the "same" as before? have y'all's experiences been "predictable" enough to conceive again on the first cycle? 

Both times my period took 1 year to come back, while I nursed 2 years. Around my kids first birthday, I was able to make another baby, but I was preventing (even with no periods) because I'm a sinner and wanted to space pregnancies. If I were fundie, I would have had kids every other year: around 21 months gap between babies. Hence, it would be a lot of kids, but far less than Kelly or Michelle. 

Regarding your question: while you have not periods, you can't predict ovulation. But you know you are going to ovulate sooner or later after having birth, so just keep trying.