Tori Bates - Part 4: Pretty Dresses Hiding Ugly Ideologies

[JillyO]

5 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I think that the mindset of "Be modest" "Be Godly "Don't kiss" "Don't Give away Pieces of Your Heart" It's all don't or no! Then suddenly you're expected to be a "YES" person. I don't know how quickly I would be comfortable. 

I agree. I'm actually surprised more of these couples don't feel the exact same way as Tori and Bobby (although I assume secretly plenty do, but just don't want to say it because that would be admitting - even to themselves - that their courtship rules may not be so smart after all). I've heard plenty of stories from people who grew up hearing that sex before marriage is wrong, only to find out that it's really hard to go from sex = baaaad, only sluts have sex, to sex = gooood, because now you're married and it's godly, within a day. And these were generally stories from people who grew up in mainstream (if conservative) Christian homes, who still dated their significant others without chaperones and kissed before marriage. So I can only imagine how much worse it must be for many of these fundies who've never even been alone with their spouse (or another unrelated member of the opposite sex for that matter) before their wedding, and then a few hours later they're supposed to have sex with that person. Creeps me out just thinking about it.

[ophelia]

I always wonder how many fundie couples actually don't have sex in their wedding night. We'll never know, but I imagine some of them most be in a deep state of schock going from no touching to kissing. This is a huge intimate step and sex could seem too overwhelming for the first night.

[lumpentheologie]

7 hours ago, ophelia said:

I always wonder how many fundie couples actually don't have sex in their wedding night. We'll never know, but I imagine some of them most be in a deep state of schock going from no touching to kissing. This is a huge intimate step and sex could seem too overwhelming for the first night.

I just hope if one partner feels that way the other one respects it.  I don't have a lot of confidence that's true though, given the emphasis fundies place on not communicating with your partner in any meaningful way, plus the pressure on the women to be 'joyfully available'.  

[BeccaGrim]

I still have this vision in my head of Jinger Duggar on her honeymoon looking traumatized in the bathroom like she'd been through an ordeal...

This does not work. This nothing to everything nonsense...

[just_ordinary]

Is the clip available online or was it just on the show?

I am indeed very sad for them (on so many levels). I also think the clip of them leaving the reception was quite telling. It seemed as if they didn’t know what to say to each other and felt awkward to be alone.

Surprisingly there were many fan comments on the Bates fan blog noticing the same as we here and no hardcore fundie fans jumped in to defend the particular Bates’ (Bateses?) model. Nice to see that people can still notice that this shouldn’t be normal. And applause for Tori and Bobby to speak about it. They surely didn’t wanted it but I believe they opened some eyes with it.

[metheglyn]

17 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Is the clip available online or was it just on the show?

I am indeed very sad for them (on so many levels). I also think the clip of them leaving the reception was quite telling. It seemed as if they didn’t know what to say to each other and felt awkward to be alone.

Surprisingly there were many fan comments on the Bates fan blog noticing the same as we here and no hardcore fundie fans jumped in to defend the particular Bates’ (Bateses?) model. Nice to see that people can still notice that this shouldn’t be normal. And applause for Tori and Bobby to speak about it. They surely didn’t wanted it but I believe they opened some eyes with it.

Did you mean the interview with Tori and Bobby about the awkwardness of being alone together and kissing? I think someone linked it previously, but it's also available here:

I think the clip is from a regular episode, but I didn't immediately find it on the UP website, however the above clip was embedded in an interview with InTouch Weekly. https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/tori-bates-bobby-smith-newlyweds-161401 

[Ivycoveredtower]

Tori and Bobby's Gender reveal party is going on right now. as seen on Lawson's IG story. 

[VelociRapture]

6 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Tori and Bobby's Gender reveal party is going on right now. as seen on Lawson's IG story. 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Sound on the first one indicates someone changed their vote because they thought Tori smiled a bit about something. No sound on the second video he uploaded. I assume we’ll get the official reveal in a magazine at some point. 

[Italiangirl]

Tori's face here seems so annoy with everything....she probably have been to so many gender reveal party that she don't care  

[Lurky]

I'd like to think that Tori's t shirt is an F You to UP and her family for making her do this...

(If it's not, it's a really weird thing to wear to some Reveal party that's being filmed to go on TV!)

[just_ordinary]

14 hours ago, metheglyn said:

Did you mean the interview with Tori and Bobby about the awkwardness of being alone together and kissing? I think someone linked it previously, but it's also available here:

I think the clip is from a regular episode, but I didn't immediately find it on the UP website, however the above clip was embedded in an interview with InTouch Weekly. https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/tori-bates-bobby-smith-newlyweds-161401 

Thank you!

Tori gives me the impression that she doesn’t feel very comfortable on TV anymore. She seemed better as an obnoxious teenager but since than has grown out of it. I like to think she is a bit like me and just cannot pretend and just smile away. If I am angry/annoyed/uncomfortable/.... I can try as hard as I want- people can always tell. Many say she is rude and ungrateful but I feel for her.

But who knows. She could have to worst character or be the sweetest person in real life (both times full of a horrible mindset though).

[victoriasponge]

I think out of all the Bates kids, I most associate with Carlin and Tori. I'm quite loud and chatty, but only when I'm comfortable, and when I'm uncomfortable I get quiet and withdrawn and honestly look terrified. My friends and family are good at noticing and helping me get out of situations, because I'm too withdrawn by that point to do it myself.

If I was either Carlin or Tori and was courting (with the purpose to be married, yuck) at a young age, in front of cameras, to guys who seem pretty immature, knowing that it was only a matter of time before the reins were just passed over to me, I'm not even sure I'd be looking forward to the wedding day. I had my first kiss at 17, so relatively old by secular standards, and felt weird about it. I realised I had no connection to that guy beyond friends, so we broke it off. But if I was a fundie, we'd be married, because in the getting-to-know-you stage, we seemed perfectly compatible. That wouldn't be the worst thing on the planet, because he is a lovely guy, and I am still friends with him, but it's such a waste of a marriage when you could be with someone way better for you. I just can't imagine that all these girls, especially the obnoxious types, are going to be okay - because no way are all of them courting someone they're romantically compatible with, they only know them as friends.

I also could not just go from no sex to sex on the wedding night. No way. We worked up to it for six months before I had sex with my boyfriend.

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

I'd like to think that Tori's t shirt is an F You to UP and her family for making her do this...

(If it's not, it's a really weird thing to wear to some Reveal party that's being filmed to go on TV!)

I’m not sure why the shirt might be weird. Is there a specific reason you feel that way?

[lumpentheologie]

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

I'd like to think that Tori's t shirt is an F You to UP and her family for making her do this...

(If it's not, it's a really weird thing to wear to some Reveal party that's being filmed to go on TV!)

I thought it was a really nice thing for her to wear! I feel so bad for the kids whose sex reveal parties are filmed and one or both of the parents admits to wanting one sex over the other, and then the child turns out to be a different one.  Not that parents can't have a preference, but to state that preference on film knowing that your future child may well see it, and know you were disappointed, and that even total strangers know they weren't what mom and dad wanted could be pretty rough. 

[Daisy0322]

On 6/13/2018 at 1:15 AM, ophelia said:

I always wonder how many fundie couples actually don't have sex in their wedding night. We'll never know, but I imagine some of them most be in a deep state of schock going from no touching to kissing. This is a huge intimate step and sex could seem too overwhelming for the first night.

I wonder this too sometimes but with the amount of honeymoon babies I doubt the number of those waiting is high. (I somewhat suspect Jessa and Ben waited...maybe not long but I could see a week or two.)

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m not sure why the shirt might be weird. Is there a specific reason you feel that way?

It's weird to me, because if one really believes they don't care if it's a boy or a girl, why have a big sex reveal party for it?  Either you care, or you don't care.  It seems hypocritical, to me, to wear a shirt like that when you're making a big production over finding out the sex, in front of family, friends and especially a camera crew, to go on TV. 

(NB this might be a cultural-difference weirdness, as sex reveal parties haven't been A Thing in the UK until recently.  Now they're starting to be imported after they're on so many USA TV shows, esp reality TV, but I would say they're in no way mainstream or common.  We don't have baby showers, either - the most is, eg someone getting a mini party at work before going on maternity leave.  In general, the equivalent is a "meet the baby" party after it's been born safely, and I think it's possibly because Brits are still more superstitious about not tempting fate before the birth).

[VelociRapture]

21 minutes ago, Lurky said:

It's weird to me, because if one really believes they don't care if it's a boy or a girl, why have a big sex reveal party for it?  Either you care, or you don't care.  It seems hypocritical, to me, to wear a shirt like that when you're making a big production over finding out the sex, in front of family, friends and especially a camera crew, to go on TV. 

(NB this might be a cultural-difference weirdness, as sex reveal parties haven't been A Thing in the UK until recently.  Now they're starting to be imported after they're on so many USA TV shows, esp reality TV, but I would say they're in no way mainstream or common.  We don't have baby showers, either - the most is, eg someone getting a mini party at work before going on maternity leave.  In general, the equivalent is a "meet the baby" party after it's been born safely, and I think it's possibly because Brits are still more superstitious about not tempting fate before the birth).

I must be British then - I didn’t want a SEX reveal party or a Baby Shower while I was pregnant. 

And the shirt doesn’t mean they don’t care or aren’t excited. It just means they don’t have a preference (that they’ll state on camera at least) and they’ll love the baby regardless of the sex. That’s how my husband and I felt about finding out our daughter’s sex ahead of time - we didn’t have a preference, but it was still exciting to find out and it was a new way to bond with the pregnancy.

[Lurky]

21 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

And the shirt doesn’t mean they don’t care or aren’t excited. It just means they don’t have a preference (that they’ll state on camera at least) and they’ll love the baby regardless of the sex. That’s how my husband and I felt about finding out our daughter’s sex ahead of time - we didn’t have a preference, but it was still exciting to find out and it was a new way to bond with the pregnancy.

Sure, I understand the reasons people find out the sex before the birth - that's common here.  It's having the big party, with everything decked out in pink and blue, with all the rigid gender norms around it, and competitive-creative ways to show if it's going to be pink or blue etc.  It seems at odds with the idea it's not important.

Not trying to convince anyone else, obvs, but you asked why I think it's weird.

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

@Lurky I think the confusion is coming from your perception that stating they don’t have a preference for boy vs girl means the sex isn’t important. Not having a preference, like @VelociRapture (and most parents!) and being important for reasons like bonding or picking a name or even buying allthepinkthings aren’t mutually exclusive. 

That being said, we didn’t find out the sex ahead of mine with my first, and we did with my second but I HATE reveal parties. To each their own, but no thanks. 

[Ali]

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

It's weird to me, because if one really believes they don't care if it's a boy or a girl, why have a big sex reveal party for it?  Either you care, or you don't care.  It seems hypocritical, to me, to wear a shirt like that when you're making a big production over finding out the sex, in front of family, friends and especially a camera crew, to go on TV. 

(NB this might be a cultural-difference weirdness, as sex reveal parties haven't been A Thing in the UK until recently.  Now they're starting to be imported after they're on so many USA TV shows, esp reality TV, but I would say they're in no way mainstream or common.  We don't have baby showers, either - the most is, eg someone getting a mini party at work before going on maternity leave.  In general, the equivalent is a "meet the baby" party after it's been born safely, and I think it's possibly because Brits are still more superstitious about not tempting fate before the birth).

Personally I am not a big fan of gender reveals. We did a filmed reveal for my son instead of a party. We had my daughter open a bag to see if there was pink or blue stuff inside. I wanted to find out at the ultrasound, but Mr. A thought a reveal would be fun so we compromised by not making a big deal out of the reveal.

[candygirl200413]

Me and my sister have a joke where we would plan a reveal and then a banner would show saying  "It's a sex reveal because gender is a social construct. We will allow the child to tell us how they self identify, thanks for coming!"
"

[BeccaGrim]

Did she have the pink button on in the first picture? I don't see it.  Indication its a girl? 

[melon]

I think Tori feels uncomfortable being the center of attention.I can't blame her,I do,too.

[Eternalbluepearl]

I didn't have a sex reveal party with baby pearl. The thought of finding out something so personal in front of people sounded like hell to me but I'm a sensitive person. We texted an "it's a girl!" picture to friends and family after our ultrasound and made some phone calls to the grandparents and that was it. And yes, we were over the moon excited. 

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I didn't have a sex reveal party with baby pearl. The thought of finding out something so personal in front of people sounded like hell to me but I'm a sensitive person. We texted an "it's a girl!" picture to friends and family after our ultrasound and made some phone calls to the grandparents and that was it. And yes, we were over the moon excited. 

We did this too, only our photo featured our dog posing with a chalkboard stating the sex. I took two photos - one for each sex - before we left for the appointment and we sent the applicable photo out to both sides after the appointment ended.

My Grandma didn’t want to know the sex and wanted to be surprised when the baby was born. I was going to honor that, but sent the photo in the wrong group text. She couldn’t be mad at me though because I was pregnant and had trouble remembering stuff. Lol!

7 hours ago, Lurky said:

Sure, I understand the reasons people find out the sex before the birth - that's common here.  It's having the big party, with everything decked out in pink and blue, with all the rigid gender norms around it, and competitive-creative ways to show if it's going to be pink or blue etc.  It seems at odds with the idea it's not important.

Not trying to convince anyone else, obvs, but you asked why I think it's weird.

I did. Thank you for explaining your thoughts.

I think @AnnEggBlandHer?explained how I view it pretty well. I think it’s possible to not have a specific preference for what sex your child is, but still feel excited about finding out and still want to do a big reveal for everyone. I’m not really a fan of sex reveals, but I also don’t really care how others choose to celebrate this specific pregnancy milestone as long as I don’t have to attend.