Dillards 46: Now with Pants and a Possible Nose Piercing

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I think one of the reasons Jill is so clingy is she can sense that DeWreck isn't in this marriage anymore. I think she's literally throwing herself at him to figure out HOW to make him happy. I think she is doing everything she can to be that perfect submissive wife, and keep sweet and do exactly as DWreck demands. But what she doesn't realize is that she hasn't done anything wrong HE is the problem and her being a door mat isn't going to make it better.  I know it is 'fun' to hate on Jill, but she really did get the short end of the stick and she seems to be doing everything she can do make it work. The problem is, is that her headship doesn't seem to want it to work. Something changed with him and he's not wanting what he wanted when he and Jill 1st got together and he is taking it out on her and those boys, and it isn't fair.  Jill can't leave, if she does she will have no where to go (or at least she will think she has no where to go), but I do think most of her siblings would step up and help her & the boys out.   I hope I'm wrong, and I'm being overly dramatic, but he scares me, of all the Duggar men, he is the one I can see being abusive. Smuggar is a dick, but I don't think he'd hurt Anna physically. Boob is a lot of things but a wife beater is not one of them, and he did raise his boys to at least treat their wives kindly.  DeWreck has some underlying rage in him that he needs to figure out and quickly, and praying about it isn't going to fix it.

[Georgiana]

22 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I think one of the reasons Jill is so clingy is she can sense that DeWreck isn't in this marriage anymore. I think she's literally throwing herself at him to figure out HOW to make him happy. I think she is doing everything she can to be that perfect submissive wife, and keep sweet and do exactly as DWreck demands. But what she doesn't realize is that she hasn't done anything wrong HE is the problem and her being a door mat isn't going to make it better.  I know it is 'fun' to hate on Jill, but she really did get the short end of the stick and she seems to be doing everything she can do make it work. The problem is, is that her headship doesn't seem to want it to work. Something changed with him and he's not wanting what he wanted when he and Jill 1st got together and he is taking it out on her and those boys, and it isn't fair.  Jill can't leave, if she does she will have no where to go (or at least she will think she has no where to go), but I do think most of her siblings would step up and help her & the boys out.   I hope I'm wrong, and I'm being overly dramatic, but he scares me, of all the Duggar men, he is the one I can see being abusive. Smuggar is a dick, but I don't think he'd hurt Anna physically. Boob is a lot of things but a wife beater is not one of them, and he did raise his boys to at least treat their wives kindly.  DeWreck has some underlying rage in him that he needs to figure out and quickly, and praying about it isn't going to fix it.

And remember what Michelle says about marriage: you have to ALWAYS be joyfully available for sex (or else your man will cheat, and it'll be YOUR fault.)

IF the ever increasing rumors about Derick are true (and they just keep growing in number from various corners, it reminds me of the Smuggar rumors), there is almost no way Jill doesn't blame herself. That's what she was raised to believe. 

I struggle to have sympathy for Jill, but if she believes that her husband cheating on her while she was pregnant, with a young toddler, and clearly struggling to cope with living in a foreign country was HER fault because she didn't handle it perfectly....

I don't know how to finish this thought. I'm actually speechless at the inhumanity that would take. 

[lomo6]

I think Derick is total scum, but I hesitate to make statements like "he seems the most likely to be an abuser" because many abusers are actually quite charming and manipulative.

I do agree that Jill's clinginess hints at some insecurity in their relationship, but it could just as easily be that Derick has grown indifferent to her, as well as her generally insecure personality.

Jessa and Jinger are better at controlling their images via social media, but that does not mean that they are in healthier relationships (although my heart of hearts I hope that Jinger got an IUD and is happily shedding all her Duggar values while keeping up appearances just enough to milk the TLC money).

Honestly, Jill's social media behavior was pretty cringe-worthy even in the early stages of their relationship when she was supposedly on cloud 9. We all remember the Christmas card with a bow around her pregnant belly. 

[12 Hungry Safety Pins]

It's quite possible that she blames herself. There are, after all, huge gaps in her joyful availability because of her inability to give birth vaginally. Poor girl!

[Georgiana]

26 minutes ago, lomo6 said:

I do agree that Jill's clinginess hints at some insecurity in their relationship, but it could just as easily be that Derick has grown indifferent to her, as well as her generally insecure personality.

This is very true.  "Checking out" is a very common coping mechanism for dealing with someone who is emotionally draining. Grey rocking.  I will be doing it in a few days and again on Christmas Eve with family members that I just can't even with (and care too much about myself to try).  We don't often discuss "emotional vampires" or "energy vampires" in fundie families, but I wouldn't be shocked if there are quite a few.  Jill Duggar Dillard grew up in a home where necessities both physical and emotional were in too short supply.  She learned to be somewhat aggressive to get what she needed.  She is emotionally immature.  That's not a great recipe for healthy emotional boundaries.

She actually displays the hallmarks of two types of emotional vampires: the Constant Talker and the Drama Queen.  Maybe THAT's why she was so high during the courtship.  Everyone was giving her the attention she craved.  But now that that is over, her sisters are not letting her fully back in to drain from them, and her husband has checked out.  She needs therapy, but I also understand that those close to her may need to protect themselves at this point.

[SamiKatz]

In my opinion, you can't tell if someone is an abuser by how they look, or even the way they act on social media.  I also feel making generalizations about their marriage based on what they show on Instagram, or even on their highly scripted reality show is reaching as well. Derick shows he is an asshat on a daily basis, but it's a stretch to say he's abusive (i said the same thing when people said they though Israel was being abused).

Jill learned how to be a wife and what a marriage looked like from her mother and father, and the cult's crazy ass teachings of what a wife should act like.  She's been abused her whole life, actually.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

5 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

In my opinion, you can't tell if someone is an abuser by how they look, or even the way they act on social media.  I also feel making generalizations about their marriage based on what they show on Instagram, or even on their highly scripted reality show is reaching as well. Derick shows he is an asshat on a daily basis, but it's a stretch to say he's abusive (i said the same thing when people said they though Israel was being abused).

Jill learned how to be a wife and what a marriage looked like from her mother and father, and the cult's crazy ass teachings of what a wife should act like.  She's been abused her whole life, actually.

I'm not going by his appearance, I'm really projecting I think, seeing Jill and the boys around him and him around them, I think I've figured it out, it reminds me of a family at church years ago, he was a lot like Derick and it turned out he was abusing his wife and kids. Thankfully she was able to get away from him and her family helped her get back on her feet.  I know better than to say because of X being this way Y will be too, because X is nothing like Y and even if it is doesn't mean the outcome will be the same.

[sansan]

17 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

I am one of the non-large people on the rolling carts while shopping.  It's embarrassing, regardless of the reason one is on it.  I have no pride anymore, but it was initially humiliating to be "that person."  Now, it is just part of the drill.

I am sure the extra large people are also humiliated in their particular situation.

Never, NEVER meant disrespect. I never question people positioning for handicapped parking spaces, not my business. There are many reasons why people need rolling carts. Slender or not.

[bananabread]

In re the BMI/weight discussion:

I think it's ridiculous how little acknowledgment there is in the medical community that people are built to be different shapes and sizes. I'm 5'3, and currently 165lbs. That makes me nearly obese on the BMI calculator! While my fiance likes to say I have a "phat" booty, no objective person would ever consider me obese. In fact, people are reliably shocked when I tell them my weight. (They always exclaim "WHERE do you keep it?!" ) It's a combination of large bones (seriously, my rib cage is HUGE, doctors have commented on it), a thick booty and thighs, and being generally compact all over. I also tend to gain muscle with even minimal exercise. I have crazy-big biceps, and never workout my arms. Wtf. Genetics are weird.

The smallest I've ever been in recent memory was 135lbs (and that was with counting calories, working out 7 days a week, basically letting weight loss decide every aspect of my life), and that's barely in the "normal" BMI range for my height. People told me constantly that I had gotten too thin and looked unhealthy.

I think an ideal, healthy, toned weight for my build would be 145lbs. For another 5'3 lady with a smaller build? Maybe her ideal weight is more like 120lbs. For someone with a curvier build? Maybe 170lbs. There is SO MUCH more to take into consideration than just gender and height!!

[Rachel333]

BMI is meant for population-level studies and isn't great at taking height into account. Tall people will have a bmi that is higher than it should be, while short people will have a bmi that is lower than it should be. (This calculator tries to fix that.) Contrary to popular perception, BMI actually under-diagnoses obesity, so it's actually far, far more common for bmi to show that someone is at a healthy weight when they're actually overweight for their body than the other way around. There are a lot of common misconceptions about weight and health, and there have been multiple recent studies that suggest that the harmful effects of being overweight have been underestimated.

One area where I think the topic of health is nearly irrelevant though is the topic of prejudice. I believe it is absolutely wrong to shame someone for their weight, and how healthy they are has nothing to do with it. There are a lot of ways to be unhealthy but few have the social stigma of obesity and that is completely unfair. People shouldn't have to justify their existence by telling people how much they exercise and how little they eat because their weight isn't the public's business.

[12 Hungry Safety Pins]

13 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I believe it is absolutely wrong to shame someone for their weight

And yet only yesterday (?) you were shaming people with an underactive thyroid who gained more then the "official" five to ten pounds! Which one is it?

[anjulibai]

Jill has always been clingy, so I'm not sure I agree that her being clingy now is a symptom of something wrong. That's just who she is and always has been, from the beginning of her marriage. Derek never struck me as being responsive to that clinginess. 

[Rachel333]

9 minutes ago, 12 Hungry Safety Pins said:

And yet only yesterday (?) you were shaming people with an underactive thyroid who gained more then the "official" five to ten pounds! Which one is it?

What? I never shamed anyone! All I said was that I was surprised to read that the American Thyroid Association says that an underactive thyroid typically accounts for 5-10 lbs of extra weight given that my perception was that hypothyroidism always makes people overweight.

Here is what I said exactly:

Quote

I have hypothyroidism and have never been overweight. I had the misconception that it made you overweight so I never considered it despite other symptoms. (I was diagnosed when I was admitted to the hospital for other reasons and they noticed it in my blood work.) When I've talked about it some people just don't believe me and insist I must be mistaken and really have hyperthyroidism instead. It turns out though that according to research hypothyroidism usually really only accounts for an extra 10-15 lbs. 

Edit: I overestimated. According to the American Thyroid Association it's actually just 5-10 lbs.

I said absolutely nothing about people who gain more than that.

[CorruptionInc.]

1 minute ago, anjulibai said:

Jill has always been clingy, so I'm not sure I agree that her being clingy now is a symptom of something wrong. That's just who she is and always has been, from the beginning of her marriage. Derek never struck me as being responsive to that clinginess. 

Also, Jill doesn't know any different. Her dibber dobber personality got her golden status in her parent's home.

[Rachel333]

One more thing about weight, with some personal stuff...

I have been extremely underweight solely because of my unhealthy eating habits. It was extremely unhealthy, far more so than being overweight. My life was literally in immediate danger because of my weight. I still didn't appreciate people judging me for that because my weight was none of their business, whether or not I was underweight for what they perceived as legitimate reasons or because I simply didn't eat enough.

The same certainly applies to overweight and obese people, for whom the negative health effects of their weight are typically much more mild than the effects of being significantly underweight, and yet they typically receive more judgement for their weight. That is wrong. The perception of someone's health shouldn't affect how others see their worth as a person.

[Dandruff]

3 hours ago, Georgiana said:

She actually displays the hallmarks of two types of emotional vampires: the Constant Talker and the Drama Queen.  Maybe THAT's why she was so high during the courtship.  Everyone was giving her the attention she craved.  But now that that is over, her sisters are not letting her fully back in to drain from them, and her husband has checked out.  She needs therapy, but I also understand that those close to her may need to protect themselves at this point.

I agree.  She got to go on a trip halfway around the world, alone with her daddy (and the film crew), to meet Dwreck.  I suspect it was the high point of her life - she was beyond even having to compete for attention.  The ratings were great and she had two men demonstrating their devotion to her.  She may have thought, once Dwreck requested courtship, that she was set for life.  Oops.

[Escadora]

If I may just jump in real quick about the thread drift. See, with weight, I find a lot of the opinions on here very compelling, and there are some that I think come from either a place of prejudice or ignorance, but there’s something else to bring into the conversation that I don’t remember having been brought up yet (though, if it has, please correct me because I’ve got that end of semester feeling going on and my brain is just putty right now), and that’s the issue of disordered eating.

Biological and disease-related causes of obesity aside, people can see a thin person, one who’s bordering on skeletal, and are quick to attribute it to disordered eating. People see a fat person and immediately, if they’re wearing the judgemental hat that day, assume that there’s some personal failure (i.e. greed) going on. Both assumptions are harmful, because not only are all very thin people not necessarily anorexic/bulimic, but not all fat people are shovelling food into themselves at a rapid pace all the time. People see a very thin person and - ignorantly, arrogantly - assume that they must need ‘fattening up’. People see a fat person and their first thoughts are disgust and derision. Please note that by ‘people’ I’m talking generally and not about FJ or any specific community other than the community of arrogant twits who deem it necessary to busy their minds with speculating on the very small or very large waistlines of others

Specifically, regarding fat people, barely anyone I talk to about this issue are willing to concede that the excessive eating of food is also disordered eating. Sure, they are more than willing to point out that there’s something wrong and selfish (I don’t think it’s selfish but more on that later) with binging, but they’re never as sympathetic towards fat people. Which is fine, the day someone pities me for my fat is the day that person gets to eat a knuckle sandwich of their own (I say this to sound tough, but I’m way too afraid of pain to start an actual fight).

Me, currently, I’m the heaviest I’ve ever been right now, and I kind of hate it. Actually, no, I really don’t mind it so much (other than the having to store many clothes of all different sized to account for fluctuation), I hate that other people hate it, because there are far worse things in this world to be than fat. Now, look, I’ll be honest, I know that I eat too much. I don’t make any special effort to exercise (I am a good walker, though, I love me a good walk), and - as a university student with a heavy workload and issues with chronic fatigue, I live a very sedentary, very slow lifestyle. There are issues in my family, specifically along my mother’s line, with thyroid problems, and here’s the bit where I get a bit sheepish because I’ve been putting off getting tested and checked out for years because I’m secretly a little bit terrified that the doctor will do the tests and then find out that, no - I’ve not inherited the genetic issues - I’m just a giant lazy greedy lump. As long as I don’t know for sure there’s always the comforting thought that it might not be entirely my fault.

And this is precisely why ‘fat-shaming’ (I put it in quotations like I don’t believe it’s a real and harmful thing, but it is) is such a dangerous thing.  Likely, I’ll be fine, but I can’t help but feel like there may be some people out there who avoid going to the doctor for the same reasons.

I had a point. I forgot what that point was, but I feel like it was going to be something along the lines of people (again, in a society sense, not in an FJ community sense) needing to show a little compassion. Or, failing that, taking off their judgemental hats and going about their days is also good.

- Also just to pretend that i’m on-topic, I’ve realised that no matter how Derick looks, whatever hairstyle he’s got or clothes he’s wearing, he still squicks me out. I feel for Jill, being effectively (mentally, monetarily, optimistically) trapped with him for the foreseeable future.

ETA - @Rachel333 You put everything that I was trying to say and couldn’t quite manage in my many paragraphs into such a concise, coherent thought. Perceptions about the health of the people we know absolutely shouldn’t factor into how we judge their worth as a person, if I could upvote your post and give you more of the positive reactions, I would.

[Satan'sFortress]

I am at a healthy weight & BMI, but am totally unfit.  I used to work for Weight Watchers and would weigh in people who were my exact height & weight, but who looked completely different from me, because, presumably, they exercised.  It was amazing, but apparently not enough motivation because here I still sit on the couch. 

In other news, I really do have hair envy for Jill in the kissing photo.  Her hair is probably as thick around as my neck.  I do not envy her anything else in that photo, however.

[Rachel333]

10 minutes ago, Escadora said:

Specifically, regarding fat people, barely anyone I talk to about this issue are willing to concede that the excessive eating of food is also disordered eating. Sure, they are more than willing to point out that there’s something wrong and selfish (I don’t think it’s selfish but more on that later) with binging, but they’re never as sympathetic towards fat people. Which is fine, the day someone pities me for my fat is the day that person gets to eat a knuckle sandwich of their own (I say this to sound tough, but I’m way too afraid of pain to start an actual fight).

It's very true that people are far more sympathetic to those whose disordered eating makes them underweight, which is unfair and even dangerous because that prejudice extends into the medical sphere and most people with eating disorders are not underweight and are underdiagnosed and undertreated.

Eating disorders can involve both over- and under-eating, but specifically in regards to restrictive eating disorders, they can develop at any weight and are dangerous at any weight. Someone who develops a restrictive eating disorder at a high weight can have serious health complications long before they become underweight but it's far less likely to be caught and/or taken seriously, which puts their health at extreme risk.

(Personally, I had my most serious health episode after I rapidly lost weight but wasn't quite underweight yet by normal bmi standards. I had several health professionals insist I must be fine because I wasn't underweight and I believed them, but after a blood test I was sent immediately to the hospital where they monitored me for a potential heart attack. Health is about far more than just weight.)

[Escadora]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

It's very true that people are far more sympathetic to those whose disordered eating makes them underweight, which is unfair and even dangerous because that prejudice extends into the medical sphere and most people with eating disorders are not underweight and are underdiagnosed and undertreated.

Eating disorders can involve both over- and under-eating, but specifically in regards to restrictive eating disorders, they can develop at any weight and are dangerous at any weight. Someone who develops a restrictive eating disorder at a high weight can have serious health complications long before they become underweight but it's far less likely to be caught and/or taken seriously, which puts their health at extreme risk.

 

That's such a good point, and in some ways it really saddens me that there has to be this... competition isn't the right word but it's all I've got, between both underweight and overweight people about who is more harshly judged. If someone is struggling with any health difficulties, be they mental, physical, or a mix of the two, they deserve compassion, at the very least. I had never thought much about it before you mentioned, but it's appalling that so many disorders and other health issued go undiagnosed in healthy(for the individual)-weight to underweight people simply because they appear healthier at a first glance.

I wish you all the health and happiness going forward, @Rachel333 and also really thank you for also posting about disordered eating. It's so easy to blame it on portion sizes and culture and science behind foods (not that those aren't all valid issues, too), that I feel sometimes as though people don't realise how such clinical opinions detract from the reality that some do struggle with maintaining, gaining, and losing weight because of mental illness.

With your second point, I myself - though no one would have realised or believed me at the time because I remained very overweight - struggled with a type of bulimia. Of course, I'm terrified of throwing up, but then I heard that the same effect can be achieved through the excessive consumption of laxatives (it can also be achieved through excessive, unhealthy levels of exercise, but I never was much of a girl for the treadmill). That went on for almost two years of my life, and it's something I still struggle not to dabble in on days like today, where I am hyper-conscious of my own body and everything I've ever put into it. 

On a brighter note, thanks to this thread I chose a much healthier dinner than I was otherwise going to had and will go for some cinnamon gum instead of chocolate for getting my sweet-fix. 

[jacduggar]

1 hour ago, anjulibai said:

Jill has always been clingy, so I'm not sure I agree that her being clingy now is a symptom of something wrong. That's just who she is and always has been, from the beginning of her marriage. Derek never struck me as being responsive to that clinginess. 

This was what I was going to say. She would drive him to/from work and go to eat with him on every single lunch break ffs. I don’t think that level of clinginess just goes away  

 

 

[momofsquid]

My weight is solidly in the healthy range (BMI 22) yet I have family members who judge me for being too fat and others who judge me for being too thin. Some people just like to judge. In the case of my family I think there are insecurities about their own weight and that of their children that cause them to lash out at someone who doesn't have a weight problem. I try really hard not to let it bother me but for some reason it's easy to be sensitive about weight even when you're not.

[MargaretElliott]

@momofsquid, I think you're spot on with that assessment. I'm a healthy weight by any test, whether bogus or legitimate, but my extremely obese aunt and cousin always rib me for being too thin, calling me "skinny minnie" and pushing me to eat more. I'm neither overweight or underweight, but they always judge people, usually loudly and within earshot. They'll try just about anything to lose weight, apart from eat right and exercise. I'm not saying that weight is purely about food and exercise- genetics, health conditions like PCOS, and about a billion other factors come into play- but when someone eats a heaping plate of fried food while judging me for having "just" a grilled chicken salad, well, it really bothers me. Some people just like to judge.

More on-topic, I can definitely see Jill as one of those "emotional vampires." I honestly feel bad for her. Her parents have failed so completely to provide emotional support and a loving environment that (in my armchair-psychiatrist opinion) she's emotionally stunted and immature, and she's so terrified of losing the attention she has that she aggressively pursues it, becoming a stage 5 clinger. I mean, she's a married adult, but I can't help but view her as a teen, because that's what this horrible cult molds women into. They infantilize women, treating them as children until they are married. And then boom, you're an adult. No transition. Hell, you're still subservient to a man. And that, combined with the lack of attention Jill received, and the childhood she was robbed of by being a sister mom... shit. She probably would have been needy and clingy no matter what, but being raised in that cult  may have turned it up to 11. Maybe. Just a guess, really.

[nastyhobbitses]

On weight (WARNING: maybe skip this if you're having some eating disorder-type issues, but I just need to let all this out): I'm 4'11'' and probably around 105ish pounds. I used to be 98 pounds. I would do just about anything to get back down to that. I run six days a week (taking most of this week off because I just finished a half marathon and really should rest), lift weights three days of that in addition to running, only eat roasted chicken and broccoli/kale/occasionally some sweet potatoes if I'm feeling fancy) for lunch and dinner most of the week (with an eat-whatever-I-want day on Fridays that I might stop because it's clearly impeding my weight loss), and only drink water, tea, and coffee. I'm so mad that I can't seem to get these last 8 pounds off. I'm considering just going "screw it" and getting some laxatives. I'm so anxious about the holidays. I love eating and cooking all the delicious stuff my family eats, but I'll get fat. I'm moving to the UK for work next year and I'll be reunited with my boyfriend then, and I'm scared that he won't love me anymore if I'm fat. I don't even want to have kids with him because being pregnant would make me fat.

I know in my rational brain how irrational all of this is, but I just really want to be thin.

[VelociRapture]

6 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

On weight (WARNING: maybe skip this if you're having some eating disorder-type issues, but I just need to let all this out): I'm 4'11'' and probably around 105ish pounds. I used to be 98 pounds. I would do just about anything to get back down to that. I run six days a week (taking most of this week off because I just finished a half marathon and really should rest), lift weights three days of that in addition to running, only eat roasted chicken and broccoli/kale/occasionally some sweet potatoes if I'm feeling fancy) for lunch and dinner most of the week (with an eat-whatever-I-want day on Fridays that I might stop because it's clearly impeding my weight loss), and only drink water, tea, and coffee. I'm so mad that I can't seem to get these last 8 pounds off. I'm considering just going "screw it" and getting some laxatives. I'm so anxious about the holidays. I love eating and cooking all the delicious stuff my family eats, but I'll get fat. I'm moving to the UK for work next year and I'll be reunited with my boyfriend then, and I'm scared that he won't love me anymore if I'm fat. I don't even want to have kids with him because being pregnant would make me fat.

I know in my rational brain how irrational all of this is, but I just really want to be thin.

I don’t want to overstep at all, so please forgive me if I do... but have you spoken at all with a Doctor or a therapist about how you feel about your body and your weight?