Zach and Whitney Bates - part 4

[QuiverDance]

On 2/25/2018 at 3:34 AM, Marly said:

Yes! This has always seemed weird to me too. Is this something that is more common in certain areas/states in the US, or maybe common in the US overall? And what would be 'normal' circumstances in which one would use the nickname sissy?
I've heard Leah from teen mom 2 use sissy as well for one of the twins, when she addresses one of them and then mentions the other; for instance, "leave sissy alone!", or "we need to go to the hospital with sissy", things like that. 

Calling the oldest girl  Sissy or Sister is super southern. I had an aunt Sister. Everyone does! Lol. I think my daughter’s baby brother (from another mother—her dad and I are divorced and remarried) calls her Sissy. 

FWIW, saying a kid is “all boy” or “all girl” is also super Southern and is more a comment on the child behaving more in line with gender stereotypes at a very young age than it is on reinforcing those stereotypes, IMO. You hear that said about very young kids. I don’t really think much of it, but I see how it is potentially unwise to speak in those terms. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

On 3/4/2018 at 11:58 AM, ophelia said:

Which would definitely a big change compared to the way Zach and his siblings were raised. ATI/IBLP is heavily against dancing, even when it comes to toddlers. In one of the older 17KAC episodes you can see one of the J'Slaves stopping a little boy from dancing to a some music toy in a store.

We know the Bates aren't as strict on that rule which i believe has to do with Mama Jane. there was that one episode where Nathan and Mama Jane danced in the middle of the living room. where Mary Duggar seems to toe the line with her son I  see Jane Bates Rolling her eyes at hers. 

[ophelia]

16 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

We know the Bates aren't as strict on that rule which i believe has to do with Mama Jane. there was that one episode where Nathan and Mama Jane danced in the middle of the living room. where Mary Duggar seems to toe the line with her son I  see Jane Bates Rolling her eyes at hers. 

The Bates grandparents live out of state and weren't sucked into the lifestyle like Grandma Duggar was. She has been doing the laundry for her sons brood for how many years now? There has been a lot of speculation in the past what Mary thinks about Boob's believes and quiver full in general. Her late husband surely wasn't too much into it. It is nice to know that the Bates kids at least had grandparents that aren't part of ATI/IBLP. Although I do wonder how many times Gil was begging them for money to put food on the table. Nothing wrong with that in general - when my mother divorced my siblings father my grandparents supported us financially a lot, but we are only three and my mother never signed up for a lifestyle and a number she actually couldn't afford like Gil the Grifter did.

[Ivycoveredtower]

17 minutes ago, ophelia said:

The Bates grandparents live out of state and weren't sucked into the lifestyle like Grandma Duggar was. She has been doing the laundry for her sons brood for how many years now? There has been a lot of speculation in the past what Mary thinks about Boob's believes and quiver full in general. Her late husband surely wasn't too much into it. It is nice to know that the Bates kids at least had grandparents that aren't part of ATI/IBLP. Although I do wonder how many times Gil was begging them for money to put food on the table. Nothing wrong with that in general - when my mother divorced my siblings father my grandparents supported us financially a lot, but we are only three and my mother never signed up for a lifestyle and a number she actually couldn't afford like Gil the Grifter did.

I loved the few times we saw Jimmy lee on the show and how against this large family he was. it was hilarious. as for Mary I think Jimmy Lee was a strong personality so she's used to it and doesn't think too much about her son's behavior. I sometimes do wonder if she'd rather live with Amy or Deanna though she seems really close to the both of them. 

Gil and Grifting well I'm sure he was taking lots of money from his parents after he quite his real job to cut trees. I can't remember what he did but I remember he quite it. I mean Lawson was a teen and paying for his family's groceries his siblings education and cars. so if they take that type of money from a kid think what they'd take from their parents. 

[TatiFish9]

A quickie about Lawson paying for the family and grandparents helping out...

It upsets me when folks tote a lifestyle but only mention the ups or don't reveal the total story. People with less means follow trend and end up broke.

The Bates make it seems like leaving their college educated lives behind for good old fashion labor was the best thing that happened to their fortunes. 

I am sure having the show and other support helps their case to be unique. That is why they continue to push their children to have their own careers (most often <bible> college educated) prior to marriage.

 

I also want to say Zach and Whitney Bates are the famous fundie couple to watch. They have been doing it their own way since they admitted to their parents that they kissed before marriage. I know they're more low key and not as "cultured, as the Vuolo's but we'll see the most progress out of the them I suspect.

I wonder if Josie will follow in Whitney's footsteps. While I see Erin as also being career-oriented, not every one can be superwoman like her. She does it all. She makes housewifing and having your own business look like a piece of cake. Speaking of which, the one thing she couldn't do, COOK, she seems to have finally mastered as well. I love her spirit but it's rare.

Josie seems so career oriented and focused to me. I hope she surprises us all.

[Hisey]

4 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

A quickie about Lawson paying for the family and grandparents helping out...

It upsets me when folks tote a lifestyle but only mention the ups or don't reveal the total story. People with less means follow trend and end up broke.

The Bates make it seems like leaving their college educated lives behind for good old fashion labor was the best thing that happened to their fortunes. 

I am sure having the show and other support helps their case to be unique. That is why they continue to push their children to have their own careers (most often <bible> college educated) prior to marriage.

 

I also want to say Zach and Whitney Bates are the famous fundie couple to watch. They have been doing it their own way since they admitted to their parents that they kissed before marriage. I know they're more low key and not as "cultured, as the Vuolo's but we'll see the most progress out of the them I suspect.

I wonder if Josie will follow in Whitney's footsteps. While I see Erin as also being career-oriented, not every one can be superwoman like her. She does it all. She makes housewifing and having your own business look like a piece of cake. Speaking of which, the one thing she couldn't do, COOK, she seems to have finally mastered as well. I love her spirit but it's rare.

Josie seems so career oriented and focused to me. I hope she surprises us all.

Erin seems like a nice person but I'm not that impressed with her "career." Who knows how often she gives piano lessons? How many kids OUTSIDE the family does she teach?

I suspect she give about one lesson a day (or less). That is hardly a career.

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Erin seems like a nice person but I'm not that impressed with her "career." Who knows how often she gives piano lessons? How many kids OUTSIDE the family does she teach?

I suspect she give about one lesson a day (or less). That is hardly a career.

good question lately I am not sure at one point she did seem to have a good number of students and even had recitals for them. I believe it was mentioned that Josie met Kelton because Erin was giving his sister lessons. 

[TatiFish9]

@Hisey @Ivycoveredtower

She also does CDs/music albums on a seemingly regular basis.

[grandmadugger]

On 2/25/2018 at 1:14 PM, HRM1216 said:

From SW Ohio and any young girl in a family ends up called "sis/sissy" and sometimes "sister". All lovingly. I'm an only child and sometimes my grandparents referred to me as Sissy lol. 

I am an only too. My uncle is the one who called me sis. He still does actually. 

[Melissa1977]

Gil's parents have somehow critisized large families. Not in these words, but they were upset of having so many kids around and their comments weren't praising. Gil's brother has "only" 5 and seems to have enough money to raise them, plus the older girls are into acting (including ungodly musicals, like Footloose!!!), despite being a conservative family.

Bates kids are not blind. They must know their grandparents opinion and I bet some of them are envy of the cousins, not only because the money but because the freedom. They know that there are christian families using birth control and going to regular schools and nothing bad happens. As Zach has been very closed to his grandparents, maybe he can copy their lifestyle. 

6 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

good question lately I am not sure at one point she did seem to have a good number of students and even had recitals for them. I believe it was mentioned that Josie met Kelton because Erin was giving his sister lessons. 

All her pictures about teaching were posted before having Brooklyn. Yes, she had lots of pupils. But as @Hisey says, I suspect her career is being sacrificed.

 

[LillyP]

On 3/4/2018 at 11:58 AM, ophelia said:

Which would definitely a big change compared to the way Zach and his siblings were raised. ATI/IBLP is heavily against dancing, even when it comes to toddlers. In one of the older 17KAC episodes you can see one of the J'Slaves stopping a little boy from dancing to a some music toy in a store.

I remember that episode! I think it was Jana who snatched him away and tried to say he was "jumping for joy". haha

[HereticHick]

I predict that Kaci will make it to her 2nd birthday before there is a baby #3 announcement

[nausicaa]

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

All her pictures about teaching were posted before having Brooklyn. Yes, she had lots of pupils. But as @Hisey says, I suspect her career is being sacrificed.

I think so too, however it can be common for women to choose to have their careers take a back seat for a while when they have young children, even progressive feminists. I'm seeing it now with some of my highly educated, non-religious friends.

And that's where things get tricky in determining level of autonomy. Erin grew up being taught that her only contribution to the world was as a wife and mother, and we all exist within a society that is more or less sexist, but at the same time it appears she really enjoys and is passionate about being a wife and mother. Where culture ends and her own personal choices begins is difficult to determine.

As far as it is the latter, good for her if that makes her happy. And Chad has always seemed very supportive of her music and unthreatened by her career, and so maybe she can get back into it full force when the kids get a bit older. 

[MarieMarie88]

2 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I predict that Kaci will make it to her 2nd birthday before there is a baby #3 announcement

I’m hoping they don’t receive any “blessings” this year at all. Mostly because I’m really starting to like Whitney and I don’t want to see her life force sucked away by dealing with back to back pregnancies and non stop toddlerhood. So here’s to hoping they’re at least practicing NFP or something. 

[LillyP]

I actually can't see Whitney getting pregnant right now. She just started real estate and while I know it's probably out of convenience because she can do it from home and still be a mom, I hope she gets a couple of sales under her belt and it motivates her to keep it going. 

[JillyO]

9 hours ago, nausicaa said:

As far as it is the latter, good for her if that makes her happy. And Chad has always seemed very supportive of her music and unthreatened by her career, and so maybe she can get back into it full force when the kids get a bit older. 

The thing is, unless something drastically changes, she's going to have young kids for, like, 20 more years.

[TatiFish9]

@nausicaa

I agree. Erin really does seem to balance fundie life with getting what she wants as an individual much better then other 2nd generationers that are being showcased.

She does it all and doesn't seem overwhelmed. It could be an act, but from snippets and her own comments, she loves the energy of doing many things at once.

I believe she admitted something similar when Zach ?jokingly? criticized her for getting baby goats when she had two little ones at home.

 

 

 

[TatiFish9]

Whitney is not necessarily my favorite across the DuggarBates clans, but I find her path interesting.

I also find their love story to be the most relatable. Zach got out of his (most likely) prearranged original courtship at a pretty young age. That could have been luck or a mutual agreement. Can't remember the details.

He then meets a girl he wants at a store, (total *normal* thing for a guy his age to do), and admits he was cookoo for cocoa puffs for her while pursuing her.  He then courts and eventually marries her. 

I think Whitney was the first to wear pants on a regular basis. She is not afraid to be fashionable and dressed outside of modesty culture. Most importantly she has found a way to get a real career going , one that has been traditionally seen as masculine in fundieville and one that requires her to promote herself outside of her husband and children. It is also a job that is seen as "secular" and non serving which seems to be ultra important for fundie women especially.

I remember seeing Whitney's announcement about joining a real estate firm and thinking, wow! Now that's what I am talking about. I find Zach and Whitney to be brave. They do it their way and that's what counts. In this very season of Bates, Whitney states that she is there for her babies but she is also going to work. She found a system that supports her career decision. I am not sure if Zach fully agrees but they're  doing it. 

Also, he is a police officer not another minister to be (no disrespect to the occupational path - but it is Fundie typical along with "music starring").

I just see Z&W as breaking the mold much more effectively than anyone else right now. I have no doubt some of their religious views may be shifting to accommodate their behaviors, but that is still left to be seen. And I am quite sure they are still very conservative.

Anyhow, I agree that a third little one may be further along or may be even non-existent (less likely).

Whitney is a smart girl.

[VelociRapture]

@TatiFish9Sarah Reith broke off her courtship with Zach. It definitely wasn’t mutual and it left him pretty shaken up. According to Kelly, three people really were instrumental in helping him work through it - Andy Leftwich (his best man), John Duggar, and Whitney. 

I agree that they seem more real than a lot of the other couples. And while I appreciate that Zach works, I will never be ok with him being a police officer. I don’t like seeing people in this movement hold positions of power over others. He could be a phenomenal cop who never does anything wrong, but I’d still be uneasy because the potential is there.

[Ivycoveredtower]

5 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

 

I think Whitney was the first to wear pants on a regular basis. She is not afraid to be fashionable and dressed outside of modesty culture. Most importantly she has found a way to get a real career going , one that has been traditionally seen as masculine in fundieville and one that requires her to promote herself outside of her husband and children. It is also a job that is seen as "secular" and non serving which seems to be ultra important for fundie women especially.

 

I think Real estate is an okay occupation for a female in Fundy land I mean Jim Bob AND  Michiclle stared off doing just that.  Whitney certainly didn't break away with her job choice and honestly we haven't seen her really doing much. part of me thinks she joined just so she could sell Zach's grandma's house. or was it her grandma either way that's the only reason I really think she got that job. 

[VelociRapture]

17 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I think Real estate is an okay occupation for a female in Fundy land I mean Jim Bob AND  Michiclle stared off doing just that.  Whitney certainly didn't break away with her job choice and honestly we haven't seen her really doing much. part of me thinks she joined just so she could sell Zach's grandma's house. or was it her grandma either way that's the only reason I really think she got that job. 

Michelle worked real estate WITH her husband. Whitney is working with people who, as far as we know, are not involved with IBLP. That’s a big difference and is important to keep in mind. 

[LillyP]

I think Zach and Whitney are going to continue to be the most progressive couple by far. I think they'll like always be pretty conservative Christians, but I don't see them being super fundie. I feel like they do *just* enough to keep in with the family and the core of the show but you don't see them being too overly preachy like a lot of the other members. I attribute this a lot to Zach getting a mainstream job with "normal" people and Whitney branching out more as well. They just seem to be doing things differently. I don't think you'll ever see them voting democrat or denouncing the "bates way" but I can definitely see a shift in their core family.

It reminds me of the Thanksgiving episode where all the behind the scenes photos from Instagram show Whitney in jeans but during the actual episode she's wearing all the same stuff (shirt, jacket, shoes, etc)  just with a skirt instead of jeans. That right there is very telling that she seems to be doing it her way even around his family, just not during filming. I know a lot of people don't think a shift in clothing is that big of a deal, but in a family who has marketed their religion and way of life as being modest and a big to-do out of only wearing dresses/skirts it's a bigger deal than we often give them credit for. As much as they want to say that each couple makes their own rules for their family I'd be willing to bet that there's some major family pressure to keep up the appearances. Whitney wasn't raised that way and as soon as she was married she went full on skirts, so that to me shows she was doing what she thought was expected of her.

I even noticed in the recent Instagram post from Kelly at the Disney trip Alyssa is wearing pants. At one time she commented online that she was making it a point to still wear dresses/skirts around her parents out of respect but clearly her views on that have changed.

[TatiFish9]

I agree. I think after awhile it becomes difficult to put on an act. However with the television contracts they may require the skirts. I often wonder how much of it is the parents influencing these adult kids who break away or the tv show.

It is no coincidence Jill went from fundy dresser to hippy pants wearer seemingly overnight coincidentally around the time it is suspected TLC/ Dillards separated.

 

ETA: By break away, I mean deciding not to follow the rules they were raised under. 

[LillyP]

@TatiFish9 Yep and Jinger also wears pants but I'm pretty sure that while she obviously makes appearances she's not a contracted show regular. I could be wrong on that. Even still she pretty much only wears skirts in episodes.

[elliha]

I think that with Alyssa and Whitney wearing pants even around the parents and Whitney also around the kids they can be said to have made a full statement in this regard. The younger kids know this is an option, even for people they see as living life their way. I think we will see pants-wearing female minors at least in the Bates family at some point. The parents can always make themselves look good by saying that while it is their wish for their girls to wear pants they were guided by god to allow more freedom in this "non-salvation" issue.