Zach and Whitney Bates - part 4

[Feministe9000]

11 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Oh, I agree, but I'm trying to look at it in the perspective of a non fundy girl who ended up marrying a fundy. I guess it just wouldn't surprise me. 

@HarleyQuinn Agreed.

46 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I don't know I think if you're lying to your husband about birth control or lack there of you shouldn't be married to that person. 

In theory yeah....but life isn't all black and white is it?

Also, everyone has their secrets, I'm sure even in fundie marriages....l think it would be naive to assume otherwise.
And, assuming this is anywhere near close to the truth,  if thats what Whitney has to do to make sure she doesn't get pregnant while still having a loving relationship with her husband, then who cares.....?

Maybe it's just me, and i'm just without morals or ethics but likeeeeee do what ya gotta do girl! Zach will be non the wiser, so what's the big deal? That's life! Shit gets complicated.

 

Update after receiving downvote to add:
It's okay, I understand the down-vote. I'm not advocating this as the best approach, but like I said, life isn't black and white, and things get complicated. Whitney was a young and eager to please girl when she married Zach, I'm sure things have changed since then, as some folks are clearly describing.
Everybody changes, whether they want to admit it or not. and in the totally hypothetical situation that Whitney isn't telling Zach about birth control, so what? She has agency over her body and what happens to it, this is probably one of the only forms of protest or restriction that is possible for her. that's all.

 

[Hisey]

6 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I get the feeling from reading that maybe Whitney feels comfortable enough in her position to where she can drop the fundiness a bit? Her beliefs still suck but not having eleventy kids and working outside of the home. She also strikes me as the person who would hide birth control from Zach if she wanted it. (That's not a bad thing, its her right)

It's her right to lie to her husband?

On 3/13/2018 at 8:50 AM, QuiverDance said:

Being born into a large family definitely does not mean you'll have one.  I'm sure some of these kids will have large families, but there is no chance they all will, in my opinion.  

My dad is the oldest of 10, and out of all of his brothers and sisters, only two have four kids.  The rest have two or fewer.  Two are childless.  My maternal grandparents came from families of 12 and 11, and they had only 2 children.  Most of their siblings only had 2 children.  And that was pre-1960's, so I imagine there was some natural family planning going on because there was no hormonal birth control.  ONE of my grandmother's brothers and his wife had 17 kids. (CRAZY)  Even in our culture accustomed to large families, that was a bit nuts. He died young, otherwise there would have been more.  

Actually, I've read a lot about large families and many times, the adult kids choose to have small families.

Even in the best of situations, children in large families can get tired of the noise and the home filled with bodies, the lack of privacy, the need to prepare giant pots of food, the huge amount of laundry. They want their kids to have the one-one-one time they didn't, simply because their parents physically couldn't provide it. 

Now, in fundie families, it may be different, because of all the indoctrination. That remains to be seen.

[QuiverDance]

My grandparents' large families were not particularly close knit, though my paternal grandmother's brothers and sisters did visit each other quite a bit.  My maternal grandfather rarely saw his siblings at all, and my maternal grandmother was close with some of her sisters, but was absolute mortal ENEMIES with an older brother.  As for my dad's family, they are all extremely close, like up in each others' homes and business all the time, living in the same neighborhood, always visiting each other close.  I always thought my family was "normal" and was surprised as an adult that most people are not like this with their siblings and cousins.  I don't know if we are special, codependent, or crazy, but I think it is pretty nice.  

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

6 minutes ago, Hisey said:

 

Actually, I've read a lot about large families and many times, the adult kids choose to have small families.

Even in the best of situations, children in large families can get tired of the noise and the home filled with bodies, the lack of privacy, the need to prepare giant pots of food, the huge amount of laundry. They want their kids to have the one-one-one time they didn't, simply because their parents physically couldn't provide it. 

Now, in fundie families, it may be different, because of all the indoctrination. That remains to be seen.

it's interesting to think what it would have been like if Kelly and MIchelle had come from big family's Kelly had three siblings but was the baby and Michelle well having 6 siblings was also the baby with if I remember it correctly a pretty big age gap between her and the majority of them.  I wonder if it would have been different if she was the eldest. 

 

[singsingsing]

I think if you're at the point where you're contemplating lying to your partner about birth control, it's time to either seek serious help for your marriage, or end it. That said, things are a bit more complicated when it comes to fundamentalist marriage. I would never fault a fundie wife for secretly using birth control. And by the way, all women are always entirely within their rights to use birth control, no matter what. The man should absolutely NEVER get to dictate whether a woman uses birth control or gets pregnant. In an ideal world, all women would feel comfortable being open and honest with their husbands, and all husbands would support their wives' reproductive choices, but this isn't an ideal world, and it's certaintly far from ideal when you're a Christian fundamentalist.

[Feministe9000]

28 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think if you're at the point where you're contemplating lying to your partner about birth control, it's time to either seek serious help for your marriage, or end it. That said, things are a bit more complicated when it comes to fundamentalist marriage. I would never fault a fundie wife for secretly using birth control. And by the way, all women are always entirely within their rights to use birth control, no matter what. The man should absolutely NEVER get to dictate whether a woman uses birth control or gets pregnant. In an ideal world, all women would feel comfortable being open and honest with their husbands, and all husbands would support their wives' reproductive choices, but this isn't an ideal world, and it's certaintly far from ideal when you're a Christian fundamentalist.

You articulated this so much better than me!  Thanks

[Seculardaisy]

10 hours ago, Feministe9000 said:

@HarleyQuinn Agreed.

In theory yeah....but life isn't all black and white is it?

Also, everyone has their secrets, I'm sure even in fundie marriages....l think it would be naive to assume otherwise.
And, assuming this is anywhere near close to the truth,  if thats what Whitney has to do to make sure she doesn't get pregnant while still having a loving relationship with her husband, then who cares.....?

Maybe it's just me, and i'm just without morals or ethics but likeeeeee do what ya gotta do girl! Zach will be non the wiser, so what's the big deal? That's life! Shit gets complicated.

 

Update after receiving downvote to add:
It's okay, I understand the down-vote. I'm not advocating this as the best approach, but like I said, life isn't black and white, and things get complicated. Whitney was a young and eager to please girl when she married Zach, I'm sure things have changed since then, as some folks are clearly describing.
Everybody changes, whether they want to admit it or not. and in the totally hypothetical situation that Whitney isn't telling Zach about birth control, so what? She has agency over her body and what happens to it, this is probably one of the only forms of protest or restriction that is possible for her. that's all.

 

I fully think it’s her body and her choice but I also can’t imagine how devastated I would be if I found out my spouse was using some sort of (male) birth control while I was I under the assumption that we were TTC. Honesty matters. She should never have to get pregnant against her will but people should be honest with their spouses. It’s wildly unhealthy to be in a relationship where you have to hide your birth control. Of course, it’s also wildly unhealthy to pop out twenty kids, so I do see why some fundie women would have no other option.

If we are to believe that Zach truly believes as his family does, that god will give them only what they can handle, then I do think it would be pretty shitty if Whit agreed to marry into that life and then be dishonest about it. 

I guess life isn’t black and white but this shade of gray sucks for everyone.

[elliha]

Yes, Whitney has the right to use birth control no matter what but I would not fault Zack if that would be a reason he would divorce her. A person i know did divorce his wife after she did the opposite, stopped using birth control without telling him and she ended up pregnant. He felt it erased all trust he had in her and I don't fault him for making that decision. I do think such thing is a serious issue but of course I understand why someone would both use or not use birth control sometimes and not tell their partner but that doesn't make it a nice thing to do.

[LegHumperBibleThumper]

On 3/14/2018 at 3:30 PM, singsingsing said:

I think if you're at the point where you're contemplating lying to your partner about birth control, it's time to either seek serious help for your marriage, or end it. That said, things are a bit more complicated when it comes to fundamentalist marriage. I would never fault a fundie wife for secretly using birth control. And by the way, all women are always entirely within their rights to use birth control, no matter what. The man should absolutely NEVER get to dictate whether a woman uses birth control or gets pregnant. In an ideal world, all women would feel comfortable being open and honest with their husbands, and all husbands would support their wives' reproductive choices, but this isn't an ideal world, and it's certaintly far from ideal when you're a Christian fundamentalist.

I'm sure this has been talked about before, but do the Bates go into the same type of "covenant" marriages as the Duggars do? Can they end their marriages? (outside of reasons of abuse or living apart for more that x number of years).

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, LegHumperBibleThumper said:

I'm sure this has been talked about before, but do the Bates go into the same type of "covenant" marriages as the Duggars do? Can they end their marriages? (outside of reasons of abuse or living apart for more that x number of years).

I don't know, but considering they were married in Whitney's foster father church, which was fundie-lite, I suppose their mariage is an ordinary one.

[llg1234]

Covenant marriages are only available in Arizona, Arkansas, and Louisiana. The Bates most likely do not have one, otherwise we would probably hear about it. 

[neurogirl]

Kelly posted about Kaci and Bradley and had this interesting response to a probing commenter:

I think Kelly is very much trying to show or believe that Whitney is towing the family line (that her job is more like an extracurricular), but I don't think Whitney is. Derrick may be writing a tell-all  but I think there will be drama between the Bateses and an in-law too! I wonder if Kelly realizes she is helping enable Whit to work, and that if Zachney stopped having kids because Whit wanted to work, the free daycare would be closed. That would be stone cold but I don't trust Kelly Jo at all. Rooting for Whitney and hoping that she and Zach are on the same page. 

[front hugs > duggs]

@neurogirl I'm probably being naively optimistic, but I thought Kelly's response was pretty decent for an incredible rude comment. I didn't realize that when my mom dropped me off at school and went to work, my teachers became my 'mommas'! 

Although it may explain why I accidentally called my teacher 'mommy' in school one time 

[neurogirl]

@front hugs > duggs I think she responded well too...but I also feel like Kelly jo was trying to say “no Whitney doesn’t work very much. Just here and there. She’s a good mom- she doesn’t leave them like those working full-time moms.” And I think if Whit wanted to work full-time many of the Bates would not be ok with that. 

But you’re right! Good response to rude commenter.

 

[crazysnark]

I have said it before but I will say it again WOMEN RULE THE ROOST IN THESE FUNDIE HOUSEHOLDS (most of the time). Michelle is the one who fully embraced Gothardism, Kelly is the one who who wanted the whole skirts/pants dress code and chucking birth control out the window while Gil thought she was nuts. These changes all happen after they are married and the women eventually decide. If these men could have it easier  being self employed away from the evil world while only having 4-5 kids to support and  get to hang out with the guys and drink the evil beer on the weekends they would be content. However, I feel the women use pumping out kid after kid as a way to control the men. Don't get me wrong I do think there are some instances where women are oppressed in this culture, but the majority of the time I think it's the women who perpetuate this kind of fucked upery. I really am sorry if I offend anyone and am open to disagreements but this is just the way I see things and have witnessed myself .

[Hisey]

6 hours ago, crazysnark said:

I have said it before but I will say it again WOMEN RULE THE ROOST IN THESE FUNDIE HOUSEHOLDS (most of the time). Michelle is the one who fully embraced Gothardism, Kelly is the one who who wanted the whole skirts/pants dress code and chucking birth control out the window while Gil thought she was nuts. These changes all happen after they are married and the women eventually decide. If these men could have it easier  being self employed away from the evil world while only having 4-5 kids to support and  get to hang out with the guys and drink the evil beer on the weekends they would be content. However, I feel the women use pumping out kid after kid as a way to control the men. Don't get me wrong I do think there are some instances where women are oppressed in this culture, but the majority of the time I think it's the women who perpetuate this kind of fucked upery. I really am sorry if I offend anyone and am open to disagreements but this is just the way I see things and have witnessed myself .

Frankly, I think it's great if women rule the roost in these households. There are so many rules controlling what they do (no talking in church, no female preachers, must obey hubby, no working outside the home). If they have power within the household itself, that's great!

[llg1234]

10 hours ago, Hisey said:

Frankly, I think it's great if women rule the roost in these households. There are so many rules controlling what they do (no talking in church, no female preachers, must obey hubby, no working outside the home). If they have power within the household itself, that's great!

Sorry, but imo that thought process is basically a redux of this meme:

Spoiler

 

Yeah, they may have power at home, but they're still using that power to limit their kids futures and re-enforce homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, making the US a theocracy, etc. An oppressor is an oppressor no matter what gender and idc if it was Kelly or Gil driving the truck. 

[Hisey]

38 minutes ago, llg1234 said:

Sorry, but imo that thought process is basically a redux of this meme:

  Hide contents

 

Yeah, they may have power at home, but they're still using that power to limit their kids futures and re-enforce homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, making the US a theocracy, etc. An oppressor is an oppressor no matter what gender and idc if it was Kelly or Gil driving the truck. 

LOL, that'a a funny meme. But really, I think we'd all agree that it sucks to be a fundy woman. That your choices are terribly limited. That as a girl, you are a second class citizen, a servant who takes care of babies and brothers. 

If these girls grow up and have some power--even the power to make bad choices--I think that's better than the men having all the power.

I alwys think it's a bit misogynist to say things like, "Michelle Duggar wears the pants. . ." or "fundy women rule the roost." Because, who cares if they do? Is it better if the men have all the power? Do we really want JB Duggar to wear the pants, when he lives in a culture where pretty much anything he does will be excused? (look at how they excused Josh's behavior)

The women who choose to toss their birth control or impose a skirts-only rule are making (IMO) a bad choice. But I'm glad they have some power, as opposed to none. I really think all the homophobia and transphobia is driven by the men, anyway. I do agree that most normal men do not care (or even notice)whether their wives are skirts only or not, and would probably be fine with just a few kids. But I'm glad their marriages are egalitarian enough for the wife to have some say in some things.

[WiseGirl]

On 3/16/2018 at 4:44 PM, front hugs > duggs said:

Although it may explain why I accidentally called my teacher 'mommy' in school one time 

It happens, I teach 13/14 yr olds and I still get called "mom" a few times a year.

I also thought Kelly was civil in her response to a rude question. If Whitney gets to work and has less babies in the process, good for her.

[FunDieDumDum]

My personal opinion, no way she’s using BC in secret. Of course I could be wrong, but they come across as really strong partners, not just spouses. And these two have pretty much been the Bates version of rebels since they met, so it’s hardly surprising that they’d decide together to not go the quiverfull route. Why? Many reasons.

First of all, they met completely on their own, and had unchaperoned time together before getting into the whole courtship mode. I’m quite sure that after his failed courtship, one of the things that attracted Zach to Whitney was that she was already her own person; she had a job and had pursued some secondary education, which is a lot more than what Zach knew from the girls/young women he’d met in the sheltered fundie world.

They kissed before marriage, and even if they confessed and felt guilty about it, I’m not sure it was because they truly felt they shouldn’t have kissed, but rather that they told Zach’s family they wouldn’t but then did so. They felt guilty about misleading for sure, but not necessarily about kissing.

After a short period of towing the line Whitney is now back to wearing a typical mainstream wardrobe.  

Zach has a normal, totally non-fundie job, and Whitney as well now (even if it’s part time, and with two little kids who can fault her for that)?

Kaci is 3 months shy of being two with no announced sibling on the way, yet Whitney seems to have no trouble conceiving whatsoever. Are they preventing somehow? Probably, yeah, and if that’s what they want to do then good for them, but I seriously doubt there is any deception involved.

[singsingsing]

I doubt there's any deception involved either. The VAST majority of conservative evangelical Christians are just fine with birth control. Many of them are even okay with hormonal methods, but of those who aren't, most are perfectly fine with barrier methods or NFP. 

I would not be surprised at all of many of this generation of quiverfull kids chose to stay more or less in line with their upbringing, but ended up accepting some form of family planning. They could probably pretty easily justify it like, "We can still outbreed the heathens/Muslims if we have 6-10 kids rather than 12-16, and it's far better to have 6-10 kids that we can properly raise to be soldiers for Christ [or whatever] than 12-16 and be so overwhelmed that we put our children at risk of being weak and ineffectual Christians, or even worse, leaving the faith entirely! God would DEFINITELY rather we use condoms and have seven amazing warriors for Christ than have 14 kids and lose many of them to Satan!"

Just my theory. And I'm sure some will remain fully entrenched in quiverfull ideology and not prevent at all.

[Kangaroo]

Also just to add (because it never seems to be mentioned but I noticed in the Jessa Duggar thread it was brought up), she may very well have been pregnant but had a miscarriage and they chose to not publically announce this. 

Personally I think odds are on birth control (even if they're just doing a good job at NFP), but we've instantly jumped to "It must be BC!" many times when it may not be true.

If they are planning their family by choice, then good for them. If not, I hope they feel no shame or pressure.

[VineHeart137]

3 hours ago, Kangaroo said:

Also just to add (because it never seems to be mentioned but I noticed in the Jessa Duggar thread it was brought up), she may very well have been pregnant but had a miscarriage and they chose to not publically announce this. 

Good point. And secondary infertility is also a thing. I also think some form of family planning is most likely but, there are really a good number of reasons why any of these people could possibly have an unexplained gap between children and it doesn't necessarily have to be birth control.

[Ivycoveredtower]

I was thinking recently what if people like zach and Whit. Ben and Jessa ect.. are doing some type of prevention but they don't want their family's to know so they have two quick back to back babies  and then just shrug when a third doesn't show up with in the next year. zach and Whit I could see being open if they really did want a smaller family someone like Jessa and Ben not so much. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

cute pic of whit and the kids. she also has an adorable video of Bradley up on her insta story right now.