Josh, Anna and the Ms 15: now with Mason

[singsingsing]

17 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Ah yes, lets colour code our infants based on the appearance of their genitals. What a bloody brilliant idea. 

@Fascinated You do know sons can wear dresses, yeah? It's not magically gonna fly off them. True story. 

For fucks sake. When I was a little girl, I loved wearing dresses, having long hair, playing with my barbies, Polly Pockets, and doll house. I also loved playing in the dirt, wrestling with my sister, toy cars, my toy racetrack, and dinosaurs. My parents dressed me like a girl and referred to me as a girl and also happily let me get a pixie cut and didn't bat an eye when I was more interested in watching science documentaries than having tea parties. They couldn't have cared less whether I wanted to play basketball or join Girl Guides (both of which I did). They didn't force restrictive gender norms on me, but they also didn't make a huge fucking deal out of obsessively avoiding any and all concepts associated with gender.

Let me put it this way: telling your little boy that he's weak, silly and disgusting for wanting to wear a dress or play with dolls is terrible, evil and wrong. Announcing, "We're having a girl!" and releasing a bunch of pink balloons is not - it's not the same thing. At all.

[JesSky03]

Whelp, I guess I'm setting myself up for the worst parent of the year award. I'm announcing the sex of our baby at a family dinner and am in the process of signing said baby up for a spot at a christian daycare. 

[cascarones]

When I checked groceries as a teenager I always loved Halloween or whenever little kids would just randomly be in costumes, it brightened up the day. I totally gave those kids extra buddy bucks or balloons.

I've got a boy on my little soccer team whose favorite color is pink, rocks the hot pink socks every week and was very impressed by my neon pink night running leggings. Two others have pink shoelaces because they're wearing their sisters old cleats. It's a color, in and by itself it's not damaging or limiting in any way. For the most part, I suspect they're crazed raptors masquerading as children who are really into fake British accents when told to act like little gentleman and be sportsmanlike. They've only tackled me and haven't eaten me. Yet. 

[SorenaJ]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

For fucks sake. When I was a little girl, I loved wearing dresses, having long hair, playing with my barbies, Polly Pockets, and doll house. I also loved playing in the dirt, wrestling with my sister, toy cars, my toy racetrack, and dinosaurs. My parents dressed me like a girl and referred to me as a girl and also happily let me get a pixie cut and didn't bat an eye when I was more interested in watching science documentaries than having tea parties. They couldn't have cared less whether I wanted to play basketball or join Girl Guides (both of which I did). They didn't force restrictive gender norms on me, but they also didn't make a huge fucking deal out of obsessively avoiding any and all concepts associated with gender.

Let me put it this way: telling your little boy that he's weak, silly and disgusting for wanting to wear a dress or play with dolls is terrible, evil and wrong. Announcing, "We're having a girl!" and releasing a bunch of pink balloons is not - it's not the same thing. At all.

For fucks sake. When I was a child, I was told I couldn't wear black, because it was not a "girls colour", I had to wear pink instead. I wast told I had to shave my legs, 'cause that's what girls did. I was assumed to want to marry a man when I grew up "the man you're gonna marry" was heard repeatedly. Never the person. Always the man. In my church I was told that God created us as men and women and that transgender people didn't exist, and that if you were gay you had to live a life in loneliness, 'cause you were not allowed to marry. I was (legit) told I had to cross my legs when sitting down, because that's what ladies do. I was forced to wear a dress for my confirmation. Forced to listen to the t-word and f-word being thrown around like people were talking about the weather. Had to listen to my parents gendering our dog (it's a fucking dog?). Had to endure people not respecting my pronouns, saying I didn't exist.  My mum being upset when I cut off my hair, because now all my pretty hair was gone, how will I ever look pretty again. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Sorry @singsingsing you're hopelessly not progressive enough. But you're Canadian so your absurd conservativism won't worsen the situation in the US and you can plead clemency in virtue of Trudeau amazing abs.

[SorenaJ]

And no, a colour is not harmful in itself, but it never stops there. "Daddy's princess", "future footballer's wife", "little girl big smiles", "be a princess", "I'm too pretty to do maths", "all mummy wanted was a back rub", "I only date heroes", "I hate my thighs", "born to wear diamonds" are legit things I have seen on girls' clothes. 

Don't be fooled. It doesn't stop with just pink. 

[fluffernutter]

What makes my ovaries twitch: babies in wee little fox hats. I wish this would've been a thing in the 90's/early 2000's when I was had my babies.  I mean how cute is this! 

[singsingsing]

18 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

For fucks sake. When I was a child, I was told I couldn't wear black, because it was not a "girls colour", I had to wear pink instead. I wast told I had to shave my legs, 'cause that's what girls did. I was assumed to want to marry a man when I grew up "the man you're gonna marry" was heard repeatedly. Never the person. Always the man. In my church I was told that God created us as men and women and that transgender people didn't exist, and that if you were gay you had to live a life in loneliness, 'cause you were not allowed to marry. I was (legit) told I had to cross my legs when sitting down, because that's what ladies do. I was forced to wear a dress for my confirmation. Forced to listen to the t-word and f-word being thrown around like people were talking about the weather. Had to listen to my parents gendering our dog (it's fucking dog?). Had to endure people not respecting my pronouns, saying I didn't exist.  My mum being upset when I cut off my hair, because now all my pretty hair was gone, how will I ever look pretty again. 

I'm sorry that happened to you. That sucks. You had gender stereotypes forced upon you. That's different than dressing your daughter in frilly pink things or buying your son toy cars to play with, but then respecting and honouring them should they have different preferences, a different gender expression, or a different sexuality than you expected. That's the point. 

For someone who's been the victim of so much ignorance and discrimination, you sure seem to have zero problem inflicting your own baffling ignorance and discrimination upon others. 

13 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

It doesn't stop with just pink.

It doesn't always, and that's a problem, but it can. I promise you that. I've experienced it first hand. I was not subjected to any of the 'Daddy's princess', 'watch out when she turns 16', 'girls can't do X' bullshit. I'm not suggesting that my parents were perfect, because they absolutely were not, but please don't take your experience and apply it universally. There's a HUGE difference between naming your daughter Sophia and dressing her in a poofy pink dress, and saying, "Sophia, stop playing with those action figures right now! And shut up about wanting to be a firefighter, girls can't do that!"

[SorenaJ]

7 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I'm sorry that happened to you. That sucks. You had gender stereotypes forced upon you. That's different than dressing your daughter in frilly pink things or buying your son toy cars to play with, but then respecting and honouring them should they have different preferences, a different gender expression, or a different sexuality than you expected. That's the point. 

For someone who's been the victim of so much ignorance and discrimination, you sure seem to have zero problem inflicting your own baffling ignorance and discrimination upon others. 

Absolutely. If my child wants to wear dresses, and frilly tutus, I will get them frilly tutus. If my child wants to play in mud and play with cars, they will play in mud and play with cars. But I do think that's the minority overall. Few parents would dress their boy in dresses and hair bows. 

Do you feel particularly discriminated against? I mean, I suppose words have different connotation to everyone, but to me discrimination is the product of a society, an institution, a company, a government, an ideology. Do I as a single person have the power to discriminate against people? If so I am sorry. Idk to me discrimination is quite a harsh word, so if people legit feel discriminated against, I would like to apologise. Discrimination. That's a lot to feel. So I would like to apologize and attempt to better myself, if that is how people feel. Apologies. 

[singsingsing]

Just now, SorenaJ said:

Do you feel particularly discriminated against?

I don't feel discriminated against at all. I'm neither American nor an atheist, so I wasn't the target of any of your jibes.

1 minute ago, SorenaJ said:

Do I as a single person have the power to discriminate against people?

You sure do.

2 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

So I would like to apologize and attempt to better myself, if that is how people feel. Apologies. 

Awesome idea. We all have to do that at various points. I'd suggest starting by thinking about how being judged, pigeon-holed, and mocked yourself feels to you, and then putting yourself in other people's shoes when you do the same to them. Consider the fact that negatively stereotyping groups of hundreds of millions of people ('Americans', 'atheists') is both prejudiced and totally unproductive. 

[Carm_88]

I wore dresses because I was a bald baby and my parents were tired of people calling me a cute little boy. They joked about getting me wigs. I also wore my boy cousins hand me down clothes, didn't make me any more or less female. It also didn't say much about me as a person. I was more involved with drooling on myself and crying. Babies don't care about clothes, when they get to the toddler stage, they may care. 

I have gone through many different ways of expressing myself through my clothes. Many people do.

 

[formergothardite]

45 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Always the man. In my church I was told that God created us as men and women and that transgender people didn't exist, and that if you were gay you had to live a life in loneliness, 'cause you were not allowed to marry

I was told all that except gay people also didn't exist. It really sucks growing up like that.  But, it sounds like you grew up in a religiously repressive home and it really wouldn't have mattered if your parents hosted a gender reveal party or not. 

A lesbian couple I know hosted a gender reveal party. They did all the ridiculous pink/blue boy/girl shit, but guess what, when their little girl turned into a preschooler who wanted to pick out clothes from the boys department, they let her. She also wears dresses. Having a gender reveal party doesn't mean you are going to repress your children's identity, it usually just means you have spent too much time on Pinterest. 

[SorenaJ]

Obviously I don't want to be a person who discriminates against others. That's not good. I can try to formulate an apology. Apologies to anyone who feel like I have put them in a box and pigeon holed them, I always speak against doing that, so if I have done that, then that's very wrong on my part, and I am sorry for that. I'm sure individual Americans, both on FJ and otherwise, are the loveliest people ever, and if anyone feel personally judged, then again, apologies.

The same goes for atheists, all groups really, I mean, you only hear the extreme views, 'cause those are the people who shout the loudest, so you tend to prematurely judge them. I come from a place quite different from the US, so often I'm like what on earth is going on?, but that is not the fault of FJites. So yeah, apologies to anyone who feel discriminated against. I have nothing personally against either atheists or Americans (or any other group for that matter (with obvious exceptions - think Nazis etc)), or American atheists, and if it came out that way, that was wrong of me. 

[Fascinated]

2 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Ah yes, lets colour code our infants based on the appearance of their genitals. What a bloody brilliant idea. 

@Fascinated You do know sons can wear dresses, yeah? It's not magically gonna fly off them. True story. 

Honestly, this is ridiculous. When and if my grandchildren announce that they are a different gender than their biological sex, and if they so desire, I will buy dresses for the penis holders (I will call them ‘boys’) and, hmm, pants for the vagina holders (I will refer to them as ‘girls’), even though we already do that.  Our oldest is not yet four so that may be a year or two away yet.  And there is always the chance that they will identify as their biological sex, in which case, I will just keep on doing what I’ve been doing. Hope that’s ok with you. 

[JenniferJuniper]

20 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

The same goes for atheists, all groups really, I mean, you only hear the extreme views, 'cause those are the people who shout the loudest, so you tend to prematurely judge them.

Most of the people in my life are agnostic or atheists.  I never hear anyone shout about it.  What is there to shout about?

Religious people on the other hand often feel they are compelled by a God to spread some sort of news.  So they have something to shout about.  And many do, quite loudly.

So pray tell, who are these extreme screaming atheists you keep running into and what exactly are they shouting about?

[Greendoor]

@SorenaJ  Thank you for your post appologizing.

Everyone else can now move along.  In the end you will all buy the clothing and toys you want to there is no need for a war of words on this one.  Gift buying is a personal decision - see the thread discussing cash grabs for honeymoon on a wedding registry. 

[VelociRapture]

@SorenaJAmerican Mom of a 10 month old daughter here. Yes, I personally felt a bit offended by the comments. I was more offended by the fact that you continued your ignorant* posting despite the many people on here attempting to explain why you were incorrect though. I’m happy to help explain anything you may have questions or be curious about regarding my country (especially since we don’t have decent humans representing us on the world stage), but it’d be a waste of time if you aren’t willing to actually listen. 

*And I don’t mean ”ignorant” as an insult. I mean that I honestly think you don’t know what you’re talking about at times. 

@FascinatedI don’t think sex reveals themselves harm the child. I do think that parents or families with the wrong attitude about gender stereotypes can harm children though. And those families or parents who hold those harmful stereotypes often give everyone having a sex reveal a bad name because those tend to be the ones that get a lot of attention. 

It sounds like you and your family are doing exactly what you should for your grandchildren - offering options without judgement and loving them regardless of what activities or clothes they prefer. My parents did their best to raise us in a similar manner and I do think that helped make things the tiniest bit easier for my brother. Did they mess up? Yeah. They did at times, but the important thing is they tried and when my brother came out they were supportive of him.

I hope none of your grandkids struggle with their identity, but I think you’re taking a great approach and it’ll help a bit if they do.

1 hour ago, JesSky03 said:

Whelp, I guess I'm setting myself up for the worst parent of the year award. I'm announcing the sex of our baby at a family dinner and am in the process of signing said baby up for a spot at a christian daycare. 

But really, no matter what it is or what you do as a parent you’re bound to be criticized by someone somewhere. Just love your son, protect him, and keep him healthy. If you can manage that then you’re going to do great as a mom.

[SorenaJ]

32 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Most of the people in my life are agnostic or atheists.  I never hear anyone shout about it.  What is there to shout about?

Religious people on the other hand often feel they are compelled by a God to spread some sort of news.  So they have something to shout about.  And many do, quite loudly.

So pray tell, who are these extreme screaming atheists you keep running into and what exactly are they shouting about?

Everyone associates with different people, but I have never in real life come across religious people who shout loud about their religion. I'm sure there are plenty, I just haven't known any. I have known plenty of atheist people who are calling me ridiculous, a liar, gullible, not to be trusted, unintelligent, brainwashed etc for believing in God. I'd say the majority of people here (here as in real life) are atheist or agnostic, so that might play a part. But yeah, there are extreme atheists and extreme religious people. 

[Palimpsest]

35 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Apologies to anyone who feel like I have put them in a box and pigeon holed them, I always speak against doing that, so if I have done that, then that's very wrong on my part, and I am sorry for that.

If?  IF?  Try looking back at some of our older posts.  You have sounded deliberately offensive so stop the fake innocent act.

How old are you?  You have to be 18 to be a member of Free Jinger and I am starting to think you are not a day over 14.  Or have just leapt over a convent wall.

14 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

I come from a place quite different from the US, so often I'm like what on earth is going on?, but that is not the fault of FJites.

You poor little darling.  So confused by all those Americans and a culture you can't understand.  You can't even pay attention to people who are not American who are posting on this thread though.  

Funnily enough we have plenty of other people from other countries, including the UK, who post on FJ.  They manage to work things out or to ask questions in a non-offensive way.   @laPapessaGiovanna, @Lurky, and @Gobsmacked come to mind immediately, but so do many others.

I'm not sure I believe @SorenaJ's story.   I want to know in which repressive church she grew up and in what century.

[Greendoor]

@SorenaJ  I know one like that - the ex-husband of a friend.  Duncan if you are reading, yes... you.  I have never trashed your unbelief, yet you are a bully to anyone with any belief.

 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, SorenaJ said:

I'd say the majority of people here are atheist or agnostic, so that might play a part.

Actually last time we did a survey, about 75% of FJ identified as Christian.   

[Greendoor]

Christian doesn't have to mean Fundy.  A lot of us are progressive; it's just the ugly in the world speaks and every one listens.  Witness your news cast.

[JenniferJuniper]

7 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Everyone associates with different people, but I have never in real life come across religious people who shout loud about their religion. 

Wow.  Just wow.

[SorenaJ]

@Palimpsest wauw, you are not the best at accepting an apology. But I mean, I suppose only one person can be the best, so maybe it's alright. I didn't really grow up in a church as such, it was quite a liberal church. I will continue to stay in my church as long as I feel the pros outweigh the cons. And having a church not fully accept queer people is quite common. As for age, I am in my mid-20s. And pronouns are they/them. 

And sorry, I should have specified. By "here" I mean, where I am from, in real life, not on FJ. 

@VelociRapture Okay, I have seen your name before, and you know, I am willing to listen, if you want to explain where I am wrong in a private message. I am always for don't judge a book by it's cover, and I have not lived by that today, so I am willing to listen. 

[Palimpsest]

Just now, SorenaJ said:

@Palimpsest wauw, you are not the best at accepting an apology.

It is not an apology when it is qualified with an "if."  You have been told many times in this thread that you are offending people.