Seewalds 25: Jessa is allowing Spurgeon to "jump for joy", er, dance

[singsingsing]

Just now, Carm_88 said:

Also let's recall that Henry's mother Elizabeth of York died in childbirth trying to give birth to another boy after Henry's older brother Arthur, Prince of Wales died. Henry VII was equally worried about the Tudors keeping the throne because it wasn't truly stable. 

Also, he never expected to be King, that was supposed to be his brother Arthur. Henry was well-educated and very interested (and knowledgeable) in theology, so he wasn't just pulling this stuff out of his arse, either. 

2 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

Haha sorry but I still have to quibble. The idea that kings were god ordained and therefore had the same authority as the Pope is what I meant. That was a new idea in England and pissed off quite a few important people. 

Oh yeah, that's a fantastic point! Very true!

[Carm_88]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

Also, he never expected to be King, that was supposed to be his brother Arthur. Henry was well-educated and very interested (and knowledgeable) in theology, so he wasn't just pulling this stuff out of his arse, either. 

Haha no! Henry just should have thought with his upstairs brain in the beginning  He really wanted to marry Catherine of Aragon. 

[Hashtag Blessed]

@singsingsing I think you're being generous. Just because he is knowledgable doesn't mean he can't still pull things out of his arse. 

I love this discussion. It made me wonder if the Duggars learned any of this at the SOTDRT? Somehow, I really doubt it. 

[singsingsing]

Just now, Carm_88 said:

Haha no! Henry just should have thought with his upstairs brain in the beginning  He really wanted to marry Catherine of Aragon. 

Poor Catherine. Her first husband dies, her second husband constantly cheats on her, all the while she struggles and fails to produce a male heir, enduring miscarriages and stillbirths, AND THEN the question of whether or not she had sex with Arthur is debated for decades and used to justify and then delegitimize her marriage to Henry. And then she has her marriage annulled and their daughter declared illegitimate. Insult to injury! And people wonder why Mary I had so many issues. 

[Carm_88]

3 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

I love this discussion. It made me wonder if the Duggars learned any of this at the SOTDRT? Somehow, I really doubt it. 

Not unless it was a lesson in sinning and being punished.   Henry didn't technically pull it out of his arse though. He only didn't get the divorce because Catherine's nephew was the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope would prefer to drag it out rather than piss off either. When pushed, well of course Henry VIII was going to get the short end of the stick. Holy Roman Emperor vs. The King with Scotland and France nipping at him. 

 

[Hashtag Blessed]

3 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Not unless it was a lesson in sinning and being punished.   Henry didn't technically pull it out of his arse though. He only didn't get the divorce because Catherine's nephew was the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope would prefer to drag it out rather than piss off either. When pushed, well of course Henry VIII was going to get the short end of the stick. Holy Roman Emperor vs. The King with Scotland and France nipping at him. 

True. Facts. 

I was kinda joking about people like the Duggars who claim to know the bible backward and forward and yet pull all kinds of craziness out of their asses. 

But yes, there was no way in hell he was getting that divorce from the Pope. 

[justoneoftwo]

For those who don't think he was a narcissist because of the wives thing, why do you?

Also, Catherine knew she would be cheated on I expect, wasn't that basically accepted at the time.  It sucks to be a woman in that period, but that was hardly unique.  

[Incognito22]

What the hell?! Why is this thread hot with 538 replies?  I didn't know what to be nervous for. 

[singsingsing]

27 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

For those who don't think he was a narcissist because of the wives thing, why do you?

Also, Catherine knew she would be cheated on I expect, wasn't that basically accepted at the time.  It sucks to be a woman in that period, but that was hardly unique.  

Nah, it wasn't unique, but it still sucked, especially when he was celebrating the birth of an illegitimate child by a mistress and she was reminded that she couldn't produce an heir. That had to sting.

As for why I think he was a narcissist - I don't know that I can really sum up why. I mean, I think it's hard not to be a narcissist when you're King of England in the 16th century. He was raised a prince, he was intelligent, well educated, tall, handsome, and athletic... I don't know if he was, you know, innately a narcissist, but it's hard to have that kind of upbringing as a white dude in that time and place and not develop some pretty serious narcissistic tendencies, I think!

[Carm_88]

29 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Also, Catherine knew she would be cheated on I expect, wasn't that basically accepted at the time.  It sucks to be a woman in that period, but that was hardly unique.  

Catherine did in a way expect it, I would think. Her father Ferdinand had mistresses. Her mother Isabella dealt with it. However, Ferdinand and Isabella were on equal ground whereas Henry and Catherine were not. 

Anne Boleyn would have been the hardest of all to take, I am certain. Although Bessie Blout must have hurt as well. I don't think Catherine would have minded it as much when he wasn't flaunting it.  Or falling in love. 

[anjulibai]

Based on everything I've read on him over the years, yeah, Henry was a narcissist. The cheating was just part of that. Even then, his cheating was relatively mild by royal standards of the time.

Poor Katherine. She was truly a stand-out queen - doing charity, commanding armies, offering advice, moving into the background when required. She did all that was required. She even did give Henry a male heir - it wasn't her fault the poor boy died so young.

[Palimpsest]

39 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

For those who don't think he was a narcissist because of the wives thing, why do you?

Also, Catherine knew she would be cheated on I expect, wasn't that basically accepted at the time.  It sucks to be a woman in that period, but that was hardly unique.  

Henry desperately wanted a male heir.  He was the Golden Prince but also a spoiled brat.  Wives were disposable when boy children didn't happen.  Even when Edward appeared he was very frail so Henry wanted a male spare. 

There is also good evidence that Henry had a TBI that contributed to his unpredictable behavior.  Also syphilis may have contributed to his reproductive problems and general nastiness in later life.  Catherine Parr had a lucky escape.  She outlived him.

[Hashtag Blessed]

@justoneoftwo I think he was a narcissist because if I met a man like that today that's absolutely what I'd think of him. Arrogant, self-important, spoiled, treats women as disposable objects, thinks he knows the bible better than the freaking Pope, makes seriously questionable decisions but nothing is ever his fault and everyone else has to deal with the consequences, thinks he's entitled to hot young women even as he rapidly bloats into a smelly old blob... I just realized I'm almost describing Donald Trump.

I rest my case.

 

[singsingsing]

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

There is also good evidence that Henry had a TBI that contributed to his unpredictable behavior.  Also syphilis may have contributed to his reproductive problems and general nastiness in later life.

Another theory for his personality changes and erratic behaviour is that he was suffering from chronic pain due to an injury that never really healed. That plus the psychological stress of the male heir issue, the spiritual and political quandaries of breaking with Rome, and beheading so many people he was previously close to, had to take its toll!

[Hashtag Blessed]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Another theory for his personality changes and erratic behaviour is that he was suffering from chronic pain due to an injury that never really healed. That plus the psychological stress of the male heir issue, the spiritual and political quandaries of breaking with Rome, and beheading so many people he was previously close to, had to take its toll!

Didn't he also sustain a head injury during a joust? Or was that just a leg injury, I can't remember. But yeah, any number of things could explain his personality changes over time.

[Carm_88]

16 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

Didn't he also sustain a head injury during a joust? Or was that just a leg injury, I can't remember. But yeah, any number of things could explain his personality changes over time.

Both, he was knocked out in a joust and he had an ulcerated wound on his leg. 

[Hashtag Blessed]

@Carm_88 Yeah that's what I thought. Dude never stood a chance of being a normal person, but he really was screwed by all circumstances. 

Henry Seewald, stay way from the joust! We don't want that for you!

[QuiverFullofBooks]

3 hours ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

 I think Henry VIII was a hilarious fuckup. The best thing he ever did was create Elizabeth I

Have you heard Hilary Mantel's judgment on Elizabeth? "She was the worst of both her parents."

 

 

[singsingsing]

5 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Have you heard Hilary Mantel's judgment on Elizabeth? "She was the worst of both her parents."

Damn, that's harsh. I definitely disagree, but I'd love to read her explanation. I love Hilary Mantel's books, even though she writes Thomas More as a villain (I love Thomas More. Totally on his side in that whole debacle). Though frankly, historians in general have traditionally written about Thomas More like they're writing about their secret crush, so I enjoyed seeing him cast in a negative light for once.

[Hashtag Blessed]

15 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Have you heard Hilary Mantel's judgment on Elizabeth? "She was the worst of both her parents."

No! But I too would love to know why she thinks that. Elizabeth wasn't a perfect queen but the worst of both is a bit of a stretch to me. Which of her books did she write this in? I'm definitely going to check it out. I've been meaning to read Wolf Hall finally anyway. 

[HarryPotterFan]

5 hours ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

Founding a new branch of Christianity based on his narcissism?

That's more of a Jim Bob or Derick move...

3 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Tudor history is like my personal dog whistle, I swear. I think if someone went into the bathroom and turned all the lights off and said 'Thomas More' in the mirror three times in a row, my face would appear.

I'm going to go for that right now...

*screams* SOME STRANGER APPEARED IN MY MIRROR!!! *faints*

[Carm_88]

18 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Have you heard Hilary Mantel's judgment on Elizabeth? "She was the worst of both her parents."

I wouldn't say that Elizabeth I was the worst of both her parents. She definitely had Henry's vanity and self importance. She likely was a bit of a schemer like Anne. I don't think she measured up to either of her parents in these characteristics though. Elizabeth definitely had her good points. I think in comparison to Mary, she has definitely come out on the better side of historians. 

[HarryPotterFan]

I'd definitely agree that chronic pain from a leg injury that never really healed PLUS a TBI caused such a change in Henry VIII. Ano likely going mad from untreated syphiilis...any one of those things could cause a major personality change. Chronic pain SUCKS. I have the same theory about Richard III. He's been portrayed as evil or a psychopath, but have you SEEN his skelton? He had scoliosis, and a severe curve at that. Speaking from personal experience, scoliosis is very painful. Before I had corrective surgery it felt like I was being split open by a white hot axe.

I also take personal offense at Shakespeare portraying him as a hunchback and mocking his physical ailment. Who you calling ugly, sir?? 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

17 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

No! But I too would love to know why she thinks that. Elizabeth wasn't a perfect queen but the worst of both is a bit of a stretch to me. Which of her books did she write this in? I'm definitely going to check it out. I've been meaning to read Wolf Hall finally anyway. 

It's not in a book, she said it in an interview with the Financial Times. http://app.ft.com/content/8bcb49e4-193c-11e2-9b3e-00144feabdc0 

[Greendoor]

3 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I wouldn't say that Elizabeth I was the worst of both her parents. She definitely had Henry's vanity and self importance. She likely was a bit of a schemer like Anne. I don't think she measured up to either of her parents in these characteristics though. Elizabeth definitely had her good points. I think in comparison to Mary, she has definitely come out on the better side of historians. 

I think that Elizabeth had to be very smart and held in.  First she was not a son, then she was a bastard, then her brother became King (he was Protestant), then her sister became Queen (she was Catholic), and Elizabeth lived through all that.  She survived.  And it was she who said she didn't not want to look into men's hearts.  The religous war ended because of her.

She could not marry; she could not bring in a foreign King - her sister tried that.  She could not marry some on beneath her status. Politically she was stuck.  She had to give up all hopes of having a family ( I presume like most women, especially at that time, she thought it would be part of her life).  Elizabeth had a some supposed, perhaps probable affairs, but for the most part she was on her own, with no one she could really trust.  Heavy lies the head that wears the crown.  And yes, she had power, was imperious, and darn well made sure the men of her day knew and remembered who their Queen was.