Seewalds 25: Jessa is allowing Spurgeon to "jump for joy", er, dance

[ThunderRolls]

@lexiloumarieYou mean Jessa's "Fixer Upper" Waco shirt? Maybe this is totally nuts, but Jessa LOVES that show - what if she and Ben plan to move to Texas and get on an episode of Fixer Upper? Maybe? 

 

[SassyPants]

What if they plan on using BC and have jobs lined up? They have plenty of plausible FT babysitters on hand.

3 hours ago, ThunderRolls said:

what if she and Ben plan to move to Texas and get on an episode of Fixer Upper? Maybe? 

 

 

[Jenn The Heathen]

To all the parents talking about how willful their toddlers are...

That doesn't go away, you just have to find a way to redirect into something productive. My 7 year old is a prime example... he's going to be a brilliant man one day.  Here's hoping I survive his childhood to see it!

[PainfullyAware]

"Duck terrorist" made my day! 

On the question of if J&B will be influenced by J&J... Ben wasn't raised Gothard (and his parents seem to have  possibly spaced their 7, or not had 19 on purpose). He seems young and impressionable. I think he absorbed a lot of Duggar dogma but if Jeremy can articulate alternatives in a way that still has scriptural support (to satisfy Ben's fantasy that he is a theological scholar) then quite possibly he could be gradually swayed. It would go a lot faster away from NWA.

Jessa might be harder. She's not the most openly devout of her sibs but has posted some fire and brimstone type stuff. Following the Gothard rules has worked out pretty well for her. But she is raising her kids differently so maybe after 3 or 13 kids she will feel overwhelmed and decide that Jinger is right and spacing to ' focus on better serving the lord' is fine.

[feministxtian]

Willful toddlers? They don't change much as they grow up. My kids are 34, 30 and 27 (bio kids) and they're ALL still thickheaded. I swear a brick wall would give up faster than any of my 3. I wonder where they got it from????

[Irene]

TTH means?

[justpassingby]

I think Jessa is done with kids for now. I don't picture her having more than 6.  Seems like she is the opposite of her mother, she enjoys being involved with her kids.

[sparrow]

This may constitute as threat drift -- if so, I apologize. 

But early this morning as I was laying on the floor of my son's nursery waiting for him to fall back asleep, I was reading the tribute to Michelle that Jessa posted on her instagram.  I'm always struck when I see someone displaying what appears to be genuine praise for their mother.  That may seem weird to some, or many, who genuinely love, and like, their mother.  My own relationship with my mother is so uncomfortably strained that I truly prefer to avoid her whenever possible.  And so positive mother-daughter relationships just baffle the heck out of me.  That may be one of the many reasons I'm so fascinated by fundies in general, as close mother-daughter relationships seem to be the rule.  But as I observed Jessa waxing rhapsodic about the many virtues and positive memories of Michelle, I was flummoxed/fascinated/perhaps even a little inspired.  Which I know is an inexcusable thing to admit when it comes to Michelle.  Objectively speaking, she's made all sorts of choices I personally find appalling.  I also know that fundies hammer into their children how evil it is to NOT revere one's parents, to the point of brainwashing.  So if asked, "Do you love your mother?" I would expect 10 out of 10 answers to be, "Yes! Of course! My mother is AMAZING!" or some such variation.  But when a kid who's out of their parents' house already goes out of there way to create something like the tribute Jessa wrote, which I speculate was unprompted, it feels genuine.  Am I being naive?  I don't know... 

How to NOT be the kind of mother mine was... how to be a positive force in my kids' lives, so that they might actually WANT to have a relationship with me when they're finally old enough to choose, is the #1 thing on my mind now that I'm a mom myself.  Whether Michelle really was as selfless and giving a mother as Jessa perceives is probably impossible to figure out.  And even if she was really that selfless, she certainly doesn't have the monopoly on Jesus-like behavior, as I'm sure there are scads of moms -- both religious and non -- who would say, "Of course.  Why would a mother be anything but?"  I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say here.  Maybe all I can say is that it struck me and I don't know what to make of it. 

[snickers34]

8 hours ago, Irene said:

TTH means?

Hover over it with your curser - tinker toy house, aka the duggar's main house.

[singsingsing]

6 hours ago, justpassingby said:

I think Jessa is done with kids for now. I don't picture her having more than 6.  Seems like she is the opposite of her mother, she enjoys being involved with her kids.

Enjoying her kids, absolutely. Being done, even for now? I'm not so sure. That stands in total opposition to everything she's said, laughingly mentioning enough for a football team, grinning after getting pregnant so fast with Henry and saying she must be more like her mother. Maybe having two so close has kicked her in the ass. Maybe, as some people suggest, Jinger is doing some kind of planning and that's going to have an influence on Jessa. I definitely think it's possible, but personally? I'm still expecting an announcement in the next 1-6 months.

Can I just say I find it really fascinating to watch the second generation get married and start reproducing (or not)? Obviously it's going to happen very slowly, but it's really going to be interesting to see who fully embraces quiverfull, who does so at first and then switches gears, and who says 'eff it' right off the bat.

[EmmieJ]

12 hours ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

To all the parents talking about how willful their toddlers are...

That doesn't go away, you just have to find a way to redirect into something productive. My 7 year old is a prime example... he's going to be a brilliant man one day.  Here's hoping I survive his childhood to see it!

Yep.  Had one of those wilful children myself.  It can make parenting difficult, finding ways to encourage the behaviors you want in a kind, loving, non~corporal punishment way.  But my son's youthful stubbornness morphed into an adult who is extremely focused, determined, and confident.  I doubt he could be pressured into doing something he believed to be wrong.    

[AtlanticTug]

11 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Willful toddlers? They don't change much as they grow up. My kids are 34, 30 and 27 (bio kids) and they're ALL still thickheaded. I swear a brick wall would give up faster than any of my 3. I wonder where they got it from????

Interesting.

I had a difficult baby - he was happy and smiley a lot BUT he never slept. He woke up every 90 minutes all night long until he was 6 months old. Then he started to sleep ok at night but would wake at 5 am for the day, sometimes 4:30. He was not a good napper then and is not now. He also had silent reflux which was difficult for many months.

BUT he turned into a lovely and comparatively obedient toddler. Yes, he tantrums if he is tired but it is fairly rare and he was very verbally advanced which I think helped him deal with his frustrations. So based on how he was as a baby I expected a horrendous toddler but the opposite has happened. They love him at his daycare, say he is just a little joy to have around.

7 hours ago, justpassingby said:

I think Jessa is done with kids for now. I don't picture her having more than 6.  Seems like she is the opposite of her mother, she enjoys being involved with her kids.

I'd be surprised if she's not pregnant right now.

Yes, she enjoys being involved with her kids, but for all we know, so did Michelle when she only had Josh or Josh and the twins.

Jessa is more about branding and social media attention/fame than any of the other Duggar offspring. Nobody is going to care about her and Ben as the two boys grow up if there aren't new additions. She'll keep 'em coming.

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

Can I just say I find it really fascinating to watch the second generation get married and start reproducing (or not)? Obviously it's going to happen very slowly, but it's really going to be interesting to see who fully embraces quiverfull, who does so at first and then switches gears, and who says 'eff it' right off the bat.

Same, I find the Second Generation fascinating.  Their parents chose the experimental lifestyle, and it seems like there's no family where 100% of their kids have lasted in it until the 3rd Gen are teenagers. 

I guess there's John Shrader (who seems to be the only one of his siblings still in the life), 3 out of 4 Noyes daughters, the 'famous' one being Jill Rodrigues, however many Coghlins are about, about half of the adult Waller children (the Priscilla/Anna family, I always forget their name) seem to have left/gone at least Conservative Christian...   It feels like money plays a large part, so more likely for the Wallers to have children leave the family than eg the Duggars - but the next 20 years will be super-interesting. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

11 minutes ago, Lurky said:

...the adult Waller children (the Priscilla/Anna family, I always forget their name)...

Keller. 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

@sparrow My mom is really and truly one of my best friends. If I had to choose to ever only be in the company of one person ever again, she would be a top contender. I am grateful for our relationship. While I think it is possible that the mother/daughter relationship is actually strong for some fundies, including the Duggar girls and Michelle, I wouldn't be surprised if this type of praise was just expected and is as hollow and fake as most of the 'Congratulations' posts they make. Like you said, in their world, you aren't allowed to hate your mother or distance yourself from her. You have to obey her and respect her...though not as much as you obey and respect your husband and your father, obviously. I also think it may be a forced/false sentiment to express "Look how much we value women!" When we all know women are second class citizens to them. 

Im sorry you don't have a good relationship with your own mother. I hope your son grows up to genuinely cherish his relationship with you! 

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, Lurky said:

Same, I find the Second Generation fascinating.  Their parents chose the experimental lifestyle, and it seems like there's no family where 100% of their kids have lasted in it until the 3rd Gen are teenagers. 

That we discuss here.  Remember we only discuss the tip of the iceberg - the TV families, the leaders, the bloggers, and the escapees who get out and tell their stories publicly, Like Cynthia Jeub and Faith Pennington and the Homeschoolers Anonymous group.  The escapees point out how difficult it is to leave and the pressures they face.

If you consider that the movement really only started in the 80's, we really haven't seen many of the 3rd generation reach their teens yet.  John Shrader's oldest kid is 14.

Opinions vary a lot on the retention rate.  I've seen estimates as high as 60% of the second generation staying in the cult (I think that was Recovering Grace).  

However, my very favorite statistics are in the Botkin Homeschool Drop Outs film.  There is a lovely and encouraging series of talking heads at the beginning, as the 2nd Gen sycophants despairingly claim that only 1% or 2% of their generation will stay as Godly and Homeschooling as their parents.  Would that were true!

 

[Firebird]

@sparrow

As someone with strained parent relationships myself, I understand about the avoiding said parents at all costs. However, I would't say Jessa posting mommy-praise-videos is unprompted. My parents were very...controlling/domineering/manipualtive, and even after I moved out on my own and was paying my own way, if I din't make some sort of huge event over any parent/family related holiday or make special time or mention them every few weeks I would get huge guilt trips of how horrible I was and how ungrateful I was after everything that had been done for me. It would make any time spent with them extremely uncomfortable until they decided I had been punished enough (Even after I was married and 25 years old.) I eventually cut ties with them, but it was a very difficult thing to do. Maybe Jessa is in the same boat? She's not ready to leave her parents completely, and in order to keep a "happy" relationship she posts said videos (I didn't watch it.) I would imagine the free babysitting is a hard thing to walk away from too.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@sparrow Are you my sister? I could say the very same thing about my mom.  We are both stubborn in our own ways but she just can't let ANYTHING go. I remember Dr. Phil (yeah I know but this ONE thing he says I really like) "would you rather be right would you rather be happy?"  She'd rather be right. She is a mean nasty woman who has alienated everyone around her and is now lamenting who will care for her in her old age. Not my problem, my siblings all agree she can go in a home, she isn't our problem.  I learned how to be a mom from her, if only I learned to do everything exactly opposite of the way she did it.

I have an amazing relationship with my kids, my daughter is 17 1/2, she likes to say I'm her friend, and tell her I'm her mom I can be her friend when she's an adult, so now that she is almost 18 she say's your my friend.  To tie this into willful toddlers, OI that child, round and round and round.  I've learned over time to let her come to my conclusion on her own. We can't MAKE her do anything, but if I suggest something and say this is what I would do, but you have to make the choice it is your life.  She will eventually come around to doing what I want. I'm her neck, I turn her where I want her to go and let her think it is her choice.  My mom can't/won't understand this and brow beats her until they are both pissed off and then G isn't going to do what is wanted. If she thinks she has no choice, you have no chance. My mother never learned the art of "picking your battles" so everything is a battle with her.  My son is really easy all I have to do is say "fine then don't do it" and he'll say OK I WILL, kid is almost 20 and it still works, gotta love that boy he's not the brightest bulb on the tree but he is the sweetest.  

[OyToTheVey]

On 9/10/2017 at 0:14 AM, HarryPotterFan said:

I love Henry's smile!! He's too cute. Look at that little punim!! (Punim is Yiddish for face...and that's the extent of my Yiddish knowledge) 

Shayna punim (beautiful face)

[NotQuiteMotY]

On 9/13/2017 at 0:45 PM, justoneoftwo said:

Also, any late weaners out there remember that weaning can cause PPD even though your well out of the time doctors would check.  Weaning changes hormones which can trigger it.

Unfortunately I know at least one (thankfully retired since I talked to him) who only considered it PPD if it occurred in the first six weeks.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Unfortunately I know at least one (thankfully retired since I talked to him) who only considered it PPD if it occurred in the first six weeks.

I'm not sure how much it matters if it's PPD or just depression but it's horrible that they stopped asking the questions and trying to diagnose it after one year. Many women who wean at 2 years and get it and never get treatment.  either way the key is the people should be looking out for each other and get treatment even if it's not recognized as related to the baby. Is the treatment noticeably different? I thought PPD and depression were actually very similar

[NotQuiteMotY]

52 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm not sure how much it matters if it's PPD or just depression but it's horrible that they stopped asking the questions and trying to diagnose it after one year. Many women who wean at 2 years and get it and never get treatment.  either way the key is the people should be looking out for each other and get treatment even if it's not recognized as related to the baby. Is the treatment noticeably different? I thought PPD and depression were actually very similar

I believe the treatment's the same either way: antidepressants, therapy, or both. I think there's a difference in classification? And PPD can be broken down into depression, anxiety, or psychosis, but I'm not sure about "regular" depression. It's still frustrating when you know it's related to the baby and that knowledge is promptly discounted.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

I believe the treatment's the same either way: antidepressants, therapy, or both. I think there's a difference in classification? And PPD can be broken down into depression, anxiety, or psychosis, but I'm not sure about "regular" depression. It's still frustrating when you know it's related to the baby and that knowledge is promptly discounted.

 that is super frustrating I get so annoyed when Medical personnel won't listen to patients

[Hashtag Blessed]

2 hours ago, Firebird said:

@sparrow

As someone with strained parent relationships myself, I understand about the avoiding said parents at all costs. However, I would't say Jessa posting mommy-praise-videos is unprompted. My parents were very...controlling/domineering/manipualtive, and even after I moved out on my own and was paying my own way, if I din't make some sort of huge event over any parent/family related holiday or make special time or mention them every few weeks I would get huge guilt trips of how horrible I was and how ungrateful I was after everything that had been done for me. It would make any time spent with them extremely uncomfortable until they decided I had been punished enough (Even after I was married and 25 years old.) I eventually cut ties with them, but it was a very difficult thing to do. Maybe Jessa is in the same boat? She's not ready to leave her parents completely, and in order to keep a "happy" relationship she posts said videos (I didn't watch it.) I would imagine the free babysitting is a hard thing to walk away from too.

I agree with this, and I would also add that overt displays of affection on social media often indicate that the relationship is not nearly as happy as the poster wants people to believe. I have a strained relationship with my own mother and I have posted heartfelt mother's day tributes and whatnot. It is the sort of superficial affection that appeals to her rather than a demonstration of any deep bond. My mother is most definitely not my best friend. The affection makes her happy, and that makes our relationship a little easier. And the affection has to superficial because we aren't close enough for me to even know how to do something genuine. So pardon me if I don't feel moved by Jessa's tribute. 

I know there are people who genuinely like to express love this way, but generally speaking I think the deeper the bond, the less we feel the need to advertise it to the world. 

[Feminist_Defrauder91]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:18 AM, cascarones said:

 In his head mother's rooms at work are nice and soothing like a spa, not the reality of many places where it is a storage closet, since the only requirement is a private place with a door that locks.

Probably a little off topic, but I spent a significant part of my summer internship researching talking points that would convince the PA legislature to pass a law mandating mothers' rooms at most workplaces.  And the fact that it could be a storage closet was a talking point (yep, lowest common denominator here).  Yet the bill went nowhere.  Breast/bottle wars aside, why is it controversial to let moms have a place to pump at work that isn't a bathroom? 

PA is so backwards; I'm embarrassed sometimes to say that's where I'm from.