Seewalds 25: Jessa is allowing Spurgeon to "jump for joy", er, dance

[JordynDarby5]

7 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Not unless it was a lesson in sinning and being punished.   Henry didn't technically pull it out of his arse though. He only didn't get the divorce because Catherine's nephew was the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope would prefer to drag it out rather than piss off either. When pushed, well of course Henry VIII was going to get the short end of the stick. Holy Roman Emperor vs. The King with Scotland and France nipping at him. 

 

Clement VI probably would have agreed to the divorce if not for Catherine's nephew. It really wasn't uncommon for kings to be granted divorce usually due to lack of heir. But Henry had bad timing. Catherine's nephew Charles V had just sacked Rome and the Pope was basically his prisoner. Even if the Pope wanted to whether he didn't care or wanted to say yes to tick off Charles V he really couldn't do anything at the time. 

7 hours ago, anjulibai said:

Poor Katherine. She was truly a stand-out queen - doing charity, commanding armies, offering advice, moving into the background when required. She did all that was required. She even did give Henry a male heir - it wasn't her fault the poor boy died so young.

Katherine was amazing. She handled invasion from Scotland while Henry was out of the country, the army was defeated and resulted in the death of the King of Scotland (also Henry's nephew). She did so much and I loved the way she refused to back down when Henry wanted the divorce. No matter what he did to her, how much he humiliated her, banished her and separated her from her daughter. She never quit or gave up. To have that amount of strength at time when women basically had no power. Even Queens. 

[LacyMay]

7 hours ago, Incognito22 said:

What the hell?! Why is this thread hot with 538 replies?  I didn't know what to be nervous for. 

My phone has done this to me too when looking at it on mobile! Telling me a thread is hot when it really isn't. 

So strange. 

It did it with the Jinjer thread a few days ago and you can guess what automatically came to mind. 

[Carm_88]

5 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Katherine was amazing. She handled invasion from Scotland while Henry was out of the country, the army was defeated and resulted in the death of the King of Scotland (also Henry's nephew).

It was Henry's brother-in-law, not his nephew. His nephew became the king on the death of his father in battle. 

[tabitha2]

Catherine was a True daughter of Kings on both sides and her always dignified,  regal and calm behavior and rule in his absence showed this ...She Knew her marriage was Legal by God and Man. No lawyers arguments or Husbands desperation to sleep with that upstart  pert Boleyn was going to move her.

 

 

[sawasdee]

I may be misremembering, but I think the doctrine of Divine Right of Kings was first fully put forward by Elizabeth's successor, James VI/I.

And Henry got his title 'Defender of the Faith' when he wrote "in Defence of the Seven Sacraments" in the early 1520s, in riposte to the growing Protestant movement. When he split with Rome, it was to form an Anglo Catholic church, not a Protestant one. He was anti Protestant, and executed several. It was his son, Edward VI, who established a Protestant church.

Elizabeth is the one who created the hybrid that became the Church of England, in an attempt to end religious friction. With regard to her having the worst of each of her parents - I don't know about that, but she certainly inherited a great deal of intelligence and determination.

[Glasgowghirl]

18 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Henry desperately wanted a male heir.  He was the Golden Prince but also a spoiled brat.  Wives were disposable when boy children didn't happen.  Even when Edward appeared he was very frail so Henry wanted a male heir.

The ironic thing is that none of his children were able to produce an heir, while Mary Queen of Scots did. She was useless in comparison to Elizabeth I but her son United the Kingdoms of Scotland and England. I get annoyed when people refer to Elizabeth II as the Queen of England. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

4 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

in comparison to Elizabeth I but her son United the Kingdoms of Scotland and England.

A few days ago, I saw the room where Elizabeth birthed James in Edinburgh Castle.

 

[sawasdee]

@Glasgowghirl Yeah - she should be Elizabeth II/I ! (James is VI/I because he was King of Scotland before King of England).

Totally OT, but I have a friend who lives near Ludlow, the 16th century home of the Princes Of Wales. She lives in an early 1500s manor/farmhouse, and the carved wooden shutters on the windows show the emblems and initials of Katherine of Aragon and Arthur - her first husband and Henry VIII's older brother. They were made in celebration of their marriage and move to Ludlow Castle. I think they may be fairly rare.

@SapphireSlytherinYour guide had it wrong. I am seriously surprised that one of their very highly trained guides should make a misstatement like this. Although Wiki says James was born at Edinburgh Castle, he was actually born at Stirling Castle - "between the hours of 9 and 10 in the evening" and his birth was almost certainly announced at the Church of the Holy Rude*, on Castle Hill, Stirling. And it was Mary Queen of Scots, not Elizabeth - although we have been talking about her a lot!

*Old spelling of Rood - meaning Cross!

[Carm_88]

13 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

The ironic thing is that none of his children were able to produce an heir, while Mary Queen of Scots did. She was useless in comparison to Elizabeth I but her son United the Kingdoms of Scotland and England. I get annoyed when people refer to Elizabeth II as the Queen of England. 

Mary Queen of Scots was an interesting character. Certainly had a harder time of it than Elizabeth I. She would have been much better served by keeping her mouth closed. Though I suppose, that leads back into the arrogance of kings and queens.  

The Stuarts seemed to have the bad luck of dying young and well, later had issues with reproducing. That may have been the Tudor in them! 

[JordynDarby5]

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

It was Henry's brother-in-law, not his nephew. His nephew became the king on the death of his father in battle. 

Your right I got them mixed up since his nephew did the same thing decades later and died after that battle. 

[sawasdee]

@Carm_88 But MQoS had such terrible taste in men! Her first husband, the Dauphin of France, she was betrothed to at the age of 5 - but he died in his late teens, and was probably the best of her husbands. The father of her child, Darnley, felt he should be King - cos he had a blood claim, weaker than hers, but he was a man, you know! And he murdered her secretary, Rizzio, in front of her whilst she was pregnant. Her third husband, Bothwell, murdered her second...and then more or less betrayed her. Not a good track record!

@JordynDarby5It's said that James V was wounded in the battle, and the news was brought that his wife had birthed a daughter. He then supposedly turned his head to the wall, and "died of disappointment"!

[SapphireSlytherin]

@sawasdee - Huh! Interesting! But I saw Stirling Castle too, so... lol 

So, should I edit his Wikipedia page to say he was born at Stirling Castle, which is where Wikipedia says he was baptised?

From Wikipedia:

Quote

James was born on 19 June 1566 at Edinburgh Castle, and as the eldest son and heir apparent of the monarch automatically became Duke of Rothesay and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland. He was baptised "Charles James" or "James Charles" on 17 December 1566 in a Catholic ceremony held at Stirling Castle.

 

 

[singsingsing]

16 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

And it was Mary Queen of Scots, not Elizabeth - although we have been talking about her a lot!

Yes, but that would certainly be an interesting historical conspiracy theory!  

[Bad Wolf]

I thought she married Dr. Who. Will take myself off to the nerd closet now. 

[JordynDarby5]

14 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Mary Queen of Scots was an interesting character. Certainly had a harder time of it than Elizabeth I. She would have been much better served by keeping her mouth closed. Though I suppose, that leads back into the arrogance of kings and queens.  

The Stuarts seemed to have the bad luck of dying young and well, later had issues with reproducing. That may have been the Tudor in them! 

Elizabeth was smarter she was well educated if Mary, Queen of Scots had been just as educated maybe she would have done a lot better. But Elizabeth also smart enough to learn from the previous reigns. She saw what happened when her sister Mary married a foreigner and learned from it. Mary, Queen of Scots seemed to make one bad decision after another.  

[sawasdee]

We're on my hobbyhorse here! I used to be a tour manager, and my favourite tours were UK/Ireland or Scotland specials. I have lost count of how many times I have visited Stirling and Edinburgh Castles - but it's in the hundreds!

I love Mediaeval, Tudor and Stuart history - lose a bit of interest in later periods....I particularly love, in the Mediaeval period, the early 1200s, with King John being an ass, and Llewellyn of Wales politicking masterfully!

My favourite Henry VIII wife is Catherine Parr - boy, did that woman get a raw deal in life. She ended up perhaps killed by her last husband, Thomas Seymour, who thought he had a chance with the pubescent Elizabeth. He was later executed on the orders of his own brother, one of the guardians of the minor, Edward VI.

@Bad WolfThat's the secret marriage! He was probably the father of Elizabeth's baby, which she then palmed off on her cousin Mary Queen of Scots!

@JordynDarby5 My crush Catherine Parr is one of the reasons Elizabeth was so well educated. She had charge of appointing tutors, and she appointed those of the calibre of Roger Ascham, one of the most renowned scholars of the day. She also had specialist language tutors, in Latin, Greek, French and Spanish. She educated Elizabeth to the same level as her half brother, the future Edward VI, and as he was being educated to be a monarch, so was she, by default.

[sawasdee]

@SapphireSlytherinAs I said in my post, Wiki is wrong. Look up Stirling Castle's own site, look up Edinburgh Castle's own site, and they will both tell you the same. Wiki is NOT infallible. 

Trust me, I have over 300 visits to Edinburgh Castle under my belt, and over 200 to Stirling Castle.  And although both are built on volcanic plugs, I do NOT mix them up. James was born at Stirling, and his mother was Mary Queen of Scots.

I am still astounded at the idea of an Edinburgh Castle guide getting such a major fact wrong. And it must have been a guide that told you, because it is certainly not in any guidebooks. I am sure there was no sign in the room announcing this false fact.

I have only seen this false factoid on Wikipedia.

[Palimpsest]

19 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

She ended up perhaps killed by her last husband, Thomas Seymour,

Didn't he push her downstairs? Allegedly.  And I agree, I always really liked Catherine Parr.

[tabitha2]

I have always liked Anne of Cleves. She wasn't well educated or at all sophisticated   but she had the good common sense  to  be a pragmatist... She realized becoming the 'Kings Sister' with a few estates and welcome at court  by doing it Harry's way was far far better than being sent packing back to the Duchy of Cleve's as the Dukes spurned sister or likely just ending up with no head. 

[Rachel333]

If wikipedia is wrong then fix it! That's the nice thing about wikipedia.

Edit: The Encyclopedia Britannica also says James I was born in Edinburgh Castle, as does this BBC page.

[sawasdee]

I don't know how.....

[Rachel333]

Click on "edit" at the top of the page and then find whatever it is you need to fix, change it, and press "save changes." If it's just a small change then you don't really need to worry about formatting since you can just keep whatever is there.

I'd do it myself but I'm looking for a source to back up the birthplace claim.

Edit: I was able to read this book online and it seems to say that James was born in Edinburgh Castle (and it mentions the room that Mary stayed in as still existing) but Mary moved to Stirling castle soon after the birth.

[JordynDarby5]

32 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Didn't he push her downstairs? Allegedly.  And I agree, I always really liked Catherine Parr.

Robert Dudley, Elizabeth's friend and she was close to, his wife was found at the bottom of the steps a lot of people assumed he shoved her so he could marry Elizabeth. Catherine Parr died six days after giving birth to her only child. Its kind of amazing after all of Catherine Parr's marriages she ended up getting pregnant in the last one. 

32 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

I have always liked Anne of Cleves. She wasn't well educated or at all sophisticated   but she had the good common sense  to  be a pragmatist... She realized becoming the 'Kings Sister' with a few estates and welcome at court  by doing it Harry's way was far far better than being sent packing back to the Duchy of Cleve's as the Dukes spurned sister or likely just ending up with no head. 

I like Anne of Cleves. She was smart enough to agree to the divorce and end up with a nice life. She had estates, money, still apart of the Court and close with her former stepchildren. She may not have been well educated but you have to be pretty smart to come out marriage with Henry VIII with your head and an arrangement like that. She always seemed like a really nice lady. 

[MargaretElliott]

Y'all are pedantic as fuck. I love it.

(Huge history nerd here, but about different things, so I'm really enjoying this thread drift!)

[Rachel333]

The site for Edinburgh Castle says that James VI/I was born there, while I can't find anything about James's birth on the Stirling Castle site.