Stockdale family murders

[BirdgirlH]

1 hour ago, WiseGirl said:

... and then I got too sad to read anymore. 

Same! I could not finish reading it. What a terrible, terrible life.

[VVV]

One thing that just struck me is that in all the news articles about the shootings, there is not one mention of a church attended by the family; not one quote from a pastor who knew the family well. This strikes me as extremely odd, and suggests that the family didn't actually attend any church but "home-churched" as well as home-schooled. The isolation in that family seems to have been extreme beyond anyone else we've discussed. Even the Maxwells go to conferences and meet other people.

What I am starting to wonder about is NOT how or why Jacob snapped; it is that the other three brothers had the inner strength and resourcefulness to get themselves out of that house to college.  Even though the youngest brother was still living at home, he was commuting to classes at a public university, and the older two actually managed to leave. That's impressive.

[BirdgirlH]

I just realised what the mother reminds me of - Agatha Christie's Appointment with Death! I got the same cold, horrible feeling when I was reading about her ...

The Facebook profiles of all the involved parties are still wide open. The wife of the other band member had a post about it, and there were a lot of comments. Consensus: shock, they were so sweet and loving! It really is incredible how people have no clue what is going on behind the facade.

- I don't understand how the father (or anyone!) could read through the horrible things the mum wrote and still think she was a loving mother!

[JermajestyDuggar]

34 minutes ago, VVV said:

Even though the youngest brother was still living at home, he was commuting to classes at a public university, and the older two actually managed to leave. That's impressive.

Like I said earlier, the Kent State branch is small, in the middle of a very rural area, and where a lot of farm kids go. So although he went to a state university branch, it's not like Kent main campus. I doubt they would have allowed that. The older two brothers went to a conservative small college where other fundies seem to go. 

The parents went to OSU. Now THAT is a place they would never ever let those kids go. They would probably think they were sending their kids into hell itself. It's always surprising when the parents go to a big liberal college and then   Don't allow it for their kids. 

Maybe since Jacob didn't go to college, he didn't have many ways of getting out. Maybe he wanted to be a fiddler on his own without the family band. Who knows. 

[purjolok84]

What I am starting to wonder about is NOT how or why Jacob snapped; it is that the other three brothers had the inner strength and resourcefulness to get themselves out of that house to college.  Even though the youngest brother was still living at home, he was commuting to classes at a public university, and the older two actually managed to leave. That's impressive.

And this example for me is why the one-size-fits-all approach that some fundies have towards raising their kids (Sheltering! Water-kefir! Homeschooling! Bible! And no distractions or nasties!) isn't foolproof or practical:

* some children will thrive

* others will leave the first chance they get, in a quiet way, and live their lives

* some rebel against what they know, and it's messy, but they build their own lives

* then you have children who are not emotionally capable and will snap

I am in no way diagnosing Jacob with anything ... but it could just be that his brothers were in a better place emotionally (and physically in some cases) to deal with the monotony of family life than he was. And he's not like anyone in general society where he may have gone to a doctor or thought about therapy or moving out etc. All those avenues were closed to him, care of his parents.

[VVV]

7 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Like I said earlier, the Kent State branch is small, in the middle of a very rural area, and where a lot of farm kids go. So although he went to a state university branch, it's not like Kent main campus. I doubt they would have allowed that. The older two brothers went to a conservative small college where other fundies seem to go.

That's true, but you know those parents weren't contributing a dime to their kids' educations.  Plus the second son is now pursuing a PhD in a hard science at a decidedly secular school. I stand by what I said, it took some strength and resourcefulness to get there.

[BirdgirlH]

One of his friends commented under his falcon profile on FB that she hoped he had become a falconer, and he replied sth. like "farmer, fiddler, falconer - sounds good!" - not sure why I'm mentioning this, but it seems significant somehow. Like she really wanted him to get out. And those three occupations were all he could see in his future

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

I think he saw his future as an unending continuation of the life he is (was) living.  And he just couldn't bear it -- just couldn't bear living like that anymore.  The shooting may have seemed his only way out. Perhaps he thought he was saving his brother from the same fate.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I'm guessing their playing in the band showed them a lot of the outside world and what they were missing. I wouldn't be surprised if Jacob was doing normal stuff like eating fast food or wanting to hang out with friends and the parents were against it. That's just my guess. He wanted more freedom and they didn't want to give him that freedom. What's funny is that if he had a little fundie wife, they would have to give him freedom. But if he's still unmarried then he isn't the head of a house and the parents probably think his being a single young man would lead him into worldly temptation. I think most fundies want their sons to marry young and start popping out kids to trap them into settling down. Fucked up.

[Coy Koi]

Crazy thing is that if he did this because he was desperate for freedom, in many ways he probably will actually have more freedom in prison. In prison you're allowed to hang out and eat snacks and watch TV. And prison jobs don't pay much but they pay more than a stick of goddamn gum.

[hoipolloi]

This statement from the Wife Swap account on cached version of their website is telling:

Quote

Meanwhile, at the Stockdales', Laurie talks to the boys about their social isolation and to Tim about his stranglehold on their lives.

Would guess that the Stockdales did NOT write that but that it comes from the show's PR materials. If so, it looks like other people, even relative strangers, could see how fucked up things were on that farm.

Re: pastor. A Pastor Steve Todd is quoted in this story, speaking as a family friend who claims to have known the family for 20 years. Could it be this Steve Todd?

[Howl]

Quote

“There is too much government, period,” said Todd, who is pastor of Wellspring Assembly Church, a church intentionally not registered as a nonprofit, so as not to follow government regulations on its messages.

This guy...why is he attracted to religion?  Or it the Pastor Todd Assembly Church?

[calimojo]

It reminds me of the Willis family to some degree.  Dad Willis  had those kids programmed all the time.  They did music, Dancing, wrestling, etc.  All to his direction.  I wonder if the families knew one another.  I would think their music lives would have crossed paths.  I think the Willis kids probably had more time to play, etc, but I remember watching a few of the episodes and the dad made the kids share a specific plan with him each day of what they were going to be doing. 

[Howl]

I be very interested in hearing now from the couple that Wife Swapped, for a frank discussion of what they thought of the Stockdale parents and the family dynamic. 

[livinginthelight]

Did anyone save the wife swap episode before they took it down?

 

[quiversR4hunting]

Did anyone see this quote on a Facebook page? This page thinks that the youngest was dating. If he was, I feel bad for his girlfriend.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

It's just interesting to me that although Jacob was an amazing fiddler, that was about all that was going on with his life. His older brothers went to college and got married. His younger brother was going to college and may have had a girlfriend. Why didn't Jacob go to college? Why wasn't he dating or married?

[TatiFish9]

This is so sad! An article came across my feed about the murders. I saw the name and the lifestyle. Figured there would be a discussion here. Glad that there is.

I wonder if we will ever know what truly went on in this family. So often there is a deluded factor to the belief that controlling your children to an extreme is a realistic possibility.

Also, I notice a slighlty sympathetic tone waving through this thread. Just out of curiosity, how do we have understanding for someone who murders (a most likely) innocent family member?

[BirdgirlH]

24 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Also, I notice a slighlty sympathetic tone waving through this thread. Just out of curiosity, how do we have understanding for someone who murders (a most likely) innocent family member?

Because from what I read on the web cache (see above) he has had a terrible life, from birth. What his mother was detailing constitutes abuse, in my eyes, and I'm not surprised he snapped (just surprised it didn't happen sooner). Doesn't make it less terrible or sad and of course especially because his innocent brother was killed too.

[CrazyLurkerLady]

I can explain the diet. It the leaky gut diet. It's very focused on fermented foods (kefir, saurkraut, etc), bone broth, and supplements (digestive enzymes, CLO, and probiotics). I'm doing a half-assed form of it myself because it seems to be helping with the tummy upsets I've been having recently - taking enzymes and probiotics, drinking a lot of veggie broth (no bone broth because I'm vegetarian), and having things like yogurt and kefir a lot. But there are some people who decide to go super overboard with this and do a strict form of it forever. It's only supposed to be used for short periods of time and then regular food slowly reintroduced so anything that causes a reaction can be identified. It's a VERY limited diet, kind of like the first stage of the Adkins diet. I can't imagine living on the strictest form for the rest of my life.

[Snarkle Motion]

6 minutes ago, CrazyLurkerLady said:

I can explain the diet. It the leaky gut diet. It's very focused on fermented foods (kefir, saurkraut, etc), bone broth, and supplements (digestive enzymes, CLO, and probiotics). I'm doing a half-assed form of it myself because it seems to be helping with the tummy upsets I've been having recently - taking enzymes and probiotics, drinking a lot of veggie broth (no bone broth because I'm vegetarian), and having things like yogurt and kefir a lot. But there are some people who decide to go super overboard with this and do a strict form of it forever. It's only supposed to be used for short periods of time and then regular food slowly reintroduced so anything that causes a reaction can be identified. It's a VERY limited diet, kind of like the first stage of the Adkins diet. I can't imagine living on the strictest form for the rest of my life.

I tend to be a believer that diet can influence mental health, but this was clearly way more going on.

I am sympathetic in this situation, even though he committed a terrible crime, because adults still living under strict control of parents may have limited access to resources for help. Either for escape of the situation or to access mental health resources or support. 

[EmiGirl]

39 minutes ago, BirdgirlH said:

Because from what I read on the web cache (see above) he has had a terrible life, from birth. What his mother was detailing constitutes abuse, in my eyes, and I'm not surprised he snapped (just surprised it didn't happen sooner). Doesn't make it less terrible or sad and of course especially because his innocent brother was killed too.

It kind of reminds me of the girl whose mom kept her sick (muchousein's by proxy) and the girl and her boyfriend killed her. I can't say I blame the girl.

[CrazyLurkerLady]

1 minute ago, EmiGirl said:

It kind of reminds me of the girl whose mom kept her sick (muchousein's by proxy) and the girl and her boyfriend killed her. I can't say I blame the girl.

DeeDee Blancharde and her daughter Gypsy Rose. I feel the same way about Gypsy as I do about the boy in this family. Murder is never understandable or acceptable, but at the same time, I can see why they would feel that was their only option.

[Jug Band Baby]

15 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I also noticed they didn't talk a lot about religion. 1) this could've been because ABC didn't want them to or 2) they could've found a way to control their children without throwing god into the mix every five seconds. 

Wife Swap has had episodes about religion.  They've swapped wives just because of it.  So it's not like ABC is shy about religion.  That makes some of the most interesting episodes.

Quote

The fundies we see seem to want to control and overprotect their children and use God as their reason. They are right in controlling their kids because god says so. This woman was so right in her convictions she didn't need to constantly use god as her reason for controlling her kids. She really did seem sure of herself and the way she raised her kids.

There's a point when overprotecting isn't protecting anymore.  When you go so far that your kids are risking being disabled as adults, unable to function as adults, you haven't protected them.  I protect my kids by making sure they will be exposed to bad influences in their lives, at age-appropriate times, so I can teach them to identify danger, even bigger danger, and how to make safe decisions.  If they came by those bad things on their own after they get our of my house, they haven't been protected at all of they don't know what to do.  Keeping kids oppressed and ignorant isn't protection at all.  I think it's a form of neglect.

14 hours ago, VVV said:

What I am starting to wonder about is NOT how or why Jacob snapped; it is that the other three brothers had the inner strength and resourcefulness to get themselves out of that house to college.  Even though the youngest brother was still living at home, he was commuting to classes at a public university, and the older two actually managed to leave. That's impressive.

Anyone else get a bad feeling that she saw Jacob as her "special" son who she wasn't going to let go of?  She had what sounds like a pathological need to control, and he might have been the kid she planned to try to keep home forever.  The youngest was on his way out, and I think he feared being stuck at home alone with her.

[Jug Band Baby]

12 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

Crazy thing is that if he did this because he was desperate for freedom, in many ways he probably will actually have more freedom in prison. In prison you're allowed to hang out and eat snacks and watch TV. And prison jobs don't pay much but they pay more than a stick of goddamn gum.

When something so fucked up to say is so entirely true, you know what he was escaping from is too fucked up to even be called fucked up.  If he lives, and I hope he does, I hope he finds happiness, whether that's behind bars, in a mental hospital, or on long-term probation.  This is a very rare time when my heart goes out to the person who shot people.  I do think he was trying to save his brother, and escape his mother.

5 hours ago, Howl said:

I be very interested in hearing now from the couple that Wife Swapped, for a frank discussion of what they thought of the Stockdale parents and the family dynamic. 

I hope that the mother from the other family is doing okay and doesn't blame herself.  She had a rare chance to stay in the Stockdale home and really observe their lives and the impact that their lifestyle had on the kids.