Family Living on Purpose (FLOP) : Erika Shupe Pt 11

[waltraute]

30 minutes ago, lawlifelgbt said:

I really hope they like Hawaii! I loved it and it was very relaxing when I went. What island are they on? I went to Kauai. God knows those girls could use a trip to the beach!

A trip to the beach without their parents and with swimsuits that allow them to blend in - I have high hopes for this even though they are going with Erika's parents. 

[apandaaries]

And look at Melanie with her "I solemnly swear I am up to no God" Harry Potter shirt! 

I can't recall if Erika was extra crazy about what they read...was she? Did they read LOTR and other fantasy? Or were Harry Potter and others off-limits? 

Anyway, exciting to see them off and about.  So glad they get to relax away from their parents' stranglehold.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I don't think Erika's parents are fundie. Or are they? I guess I just figured they were your typical conservative Christian. Didn't Erika go to public school? 

[Loveday]

13 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

And look at Melanie with her "I solemnly swear I am up to no God" Harry Potter shirt! 

I can't recall if Erika was extra crazy about what they read...was she? Did they read LOTR and other fantasy? Or were Harry Potter and others off-limits? 

Anyway, exciting to see them off and about.  So glad they get to relax away from their parents' stranglehold.

Erika did not allow Harry Potter, so it does my heart so good to see Melanie wearing an I Solemnly Swear shirt. 

[mango_fandango]

Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit, yes. Harry Potter, nope. Glad to see they’ve got those T-shirts, Melanie in particular seemed like the kind of person who’d love it. 

Erika and her mom look so similar. 

They’re in Maui BTW. 

[Emilycharlotte]

If I recall correctly, Erika did not approve of fiction in general, and strictly limited how much time the girls could spend reading.  

[LovelyLuna]

1 hour ago, Emilycharlotte said:

If I recall correctly, Erika did not approve of fiction in general, and strictly limited how much time the girls could spend reading.  

I believe it was two hours every weekend or 2 hours Saturday and 2 on Sunday.  I just about weeped with sadness when she made that rule.  Way to limit your children's experiences and stunt their growth.  I survived my childhood with fiction books, but I guess that was the point, to take away an escape from the hamster house of horrors.  

[JillyO]

Yay. So happy for Karen and Melanie!

Also, I'm just now realizing that the twins look EXACTLY like Erika's mom.

[DutchMommy]

14 hours ago, amandaaries said:

And look at Melanie with her "I solemnly swear I am up to no God" Harry Potter shirt! 

...

You forgot a letter, and it's awesome!!

[apandaaries]

4 hours ago, DutchMommy said:

You forgot a letter, and it's awesome!!

 That may be my best typo ever! 

[Emilycharlotte]

11 hours ago, LovelyLuna said:

I believe it was two hours every weekend or 2 hours Saturday and 2 on Sunday.  I just about weeped with sadness when she made that rule.  Way to limit your children's experiences and stunt their growth.  I survived my childhood with fiction books, but I guess that was the point, to take away an escape from the hamster house of horrors.  

So did I, @LovelyLuna. Not that I had a terrible childhood, but books were always my refuge. I think that Erika is an extrovert with little imagination, and has no idea how important reading is to some people. To an introvert in that house it would be the only way to have time to yourself.

On the other hand, my mother is a busy-busy extrovert, and she didnt mind having a shy daughter whose nose was always in a book--she provided the books, and marveled at how much I liked to read. Of course, my mom isn't a crazy, frustrated control freak, and she understands that not everyone is exactly the same. 

 

[ActualReality]

I was reading all of this last night and could not respond on my phone.  There are parts of this update that are not surprising at all and parts that are really kind of heart breaking.

I wonder about the parts that were edited out of the post.  Like what the alleged illness was.  Depression perhaps - who knows.  Not that it matters anyway.  Good for Karen for finally getting free.  I hope that Melanie is able to do the same.  The idea that Bob thought he'd be able to "govern the process" is crazy to me.  Good for KAren for standing up for herself and her relationship.  For her sake I hope that it works out well for her.  If her intended is in the military it makes sense that they would get married.  That way she can travel with him.  I know that the military will not pay for a partner unless it's a spouse.

The funny thing about fundies is that they always think that there is one way to raise great kids and they're the only one who know the "right" way.  It's always shocking/heartbreaking to learn that despite all of their control, plotting and planning that other people are not robots and have free will.  I live geographically very far from my fundy family and it's been nothing but a blessing to have escaped.  Even my hardest days away from the family are easier than living close to them!

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Karen's leaving makes me very sad for Melanie. I don't know these girls but I do know it takes a lot of strength and a certain type of personality to do what Karen is doing. I don't think Melanie's personality is like Karen's. And because of that, I kind of assumed that if Melanie were to escape, it would be to Karen's apartment where she could have Karen's support. Now that's gone and I imagine Melanie will be home for a few more years. 

[Coy Koi]

I like Karen and wish her well, and I hope this works out for her. That said, she's too young and inexperienced to be getting married, and if it does work out, it will largely be a matter of chance. And I do feel bad for all the siblings, especially Melanie. Not that Karen should put her life on hold for them or has done anything wrong by not doing so, but it's still sad.

Also, Karen, great job on living your own life despite having a lot of obstacles in your way! That's awesome. But I can't help but notice that every single thing she went against (as far as we know) was something that SHE wanted to do. Which is perfectly fine. The problem is that the ONE thing we know of that she continues to go along with also happens to be the one that doesn't affect her personally (equal rights for people of other sexual orientations). IMO, she's very quickly running out of time for having ANY excuse for holding those bigoted beliefs. I've been rooting for her all this time and I hope I can continue to do so.

[refugee]

11 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

The problem is that the ONE thing we know of that she continues to go along with also happens to be the one that doesn't affect her personally (equal rights for people of other sexual orientations). IMO, she's very quickly running out of time for having ANY excuse for holding those bigoted beliefs. I've been rooting for her all this time and I hope I can continue to do so.

I’ve seen this in the kids I know who have moderated their fundy beliefs. If it doesn’t affect them personally, they hang onto a teaching that’s been drilled into them even as they abandon many others.

OTOH, it may not just be ex-fundy kids. I’m thinking of an older guy I know (70ish) who’s always been the opposite of fundy in his opinions and life choices. Is it cultural, in his case (part of his generation) or is it natural to be unable to imagine a different kind of attraction than one’s personal experience?

[Hisey]

11 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

I like Karen and wish her well, and I hope this works out for her. That said, she's too young and inexperienced to be getting married, and if it does work out, it will largely be a matter of chance. And I do feel bad for all the siblings, especially Melanie. Not that Karen should put her life on hold for them or has done anything wrong by not doing so, but it's still sad.

Also, Karen, great job on living your own life despite having a lot of obstacles in your way! That's awesome. But I can't help but notice that every single thing she went against (as far as we know) was something that SHE wanted to do. Which is perfectly fine. The problem is that the ONE thing we know of that she continues to go along with also happens to be the one that doesn't affect her personally (equal rights for people of other sexual orientations). IMO, she's very quickly running out of time for having ANY excuse for holding those bigoted beliefs. I've been rooting for her all this time and I hope I can continue to do so.

Let her get out in the world a little, make a friend or two, and then discover that they are gay. She's what, 20? And has been indoctrinated in these beliefs all her life. She probably hasn't really even though deeply about this subject in the last 1-2 years, what with moving out, trying to earn a living, dealing with her parents, finding a boyfriend, deciding to marry, moving. . . Give her time. 

It's natural that she is going to first abandon the beliefs that affect her personally. I think she should be commended for having the courage to do so. So many fundie women don't have this courage, and end up in miserable lives that are very similar to their mothers.

[Coy Koi]

48 minutes ago, refugee said:

I’ve seen this in the kids I know who have moderated their fundy beliefs. If it doesn’t affect them personally, they hang onto a teaching that’s been drilled into them even as they abandon many others.

OTOH, it may not just be ex-fundy kids. I’m thinking of an older guy I know (70ish) who’s always been the opposite of fundy in his opinions and life choices. Is it cultural, in his case (part of his generation) or is it natural to be unable to imagine a different kind of attraction than one’s personal experience?

It's definitely not completely ex-fundy kids. I was guilty of it myself. I wasn't raised fundy at all, but I went against all kinds of things I was raised to do and think, but continued to cling onto a few of them because it didn't really affect me, or else I believed it benefited me. It wasn't until my late teens or very early 20s that I realized what bullshit it was to say "that's just how I was raised" as a justification for anything, when I had chosen to go against so many other things.

And I was wrong for a while before I adjusted my attitude and belief system. Karen is wrong now, if she still hangs onto those beliefs, but she can change.

37 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Let her get out in the world a little, make a friend or two, and then discover that they are gay. She's what, 20? And has been indoctrinated in these beliefs all her life. She probably hasn't really even though deeply about this subject in the last 1-2 years, what with moving out, trying to earn a living, dealing with her parents, finding a boyfriend, deciding to marry, moving. . . Give her time. 

It's natural that she is going to first abandon the beliefs that affect her personally. I think she should be commended for having the courage to do so. So many fundie women don't have this courage, and end up in miserable lives that are very similar to their mothers.

I will give her some more time. Not unlimited time though. She already had a lesbian boss that she seemed quite friendly with. She knows lots of people, and Western Washington is happily a very liberal place (happy Western Washingtonian here). 

[feministxtian]

14 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

The problem is that the ONE thing we know of that she continues to go along with also happens to be the one that doesn't affect her personally (equal rights for people of other sexual orientations). IMO, she's very quickly running out of time for having ANY excuse for holding those bigoted beliefs. I've been rooting for her all this time and I hope I can continue to do so.

This is something that takes TIME and experience. For me, even though I was quite conservative in my younger days, this issue was something that drove me NUTS! My health/PE teacher in high school is a lesbian. She's been with her partner for close to 40 years. I never, ever understood why they weren't entitled to the same rights that me, as a straight, married woman were. I'm happy to say they got married shortly after the Supreme Court decision. 

However, some people will never change their views, and that's fine...as long as they don't try to push those views on others. There are things I don't agree with and I choose to keep my mouth shut. I think Karen will eventually grow up, and perhaps leave many other of those fundie views behind. But...as long as she doesn't campaign to deny others, I don't care what she thinks or believes in her heart of hearts. Well...except for all that Cadet Bone Spurs and company love. 

[elliha]

I work in adult education. I have made people born in cultures even more restrictive than American fundie circles understand what gay rights are, why it is important and even become supportive of it in their 40s and 50s so I am definitively not giving up on Karen at this young age and with her interest in change. 

[Coy Koi]

I'm not saying anyone should give up on Karen. I'm saying she's getting to the point where she needs to be criticized and individually called out for her bigotry. If she was still living at home under Mommy and Daddy's thumb, I wouldn't think she was at that point yet, but considering all the awesome steps she's made to live her own life, I think she is. Do better, Karen!

[Hisey]

Karen is 19.5 and has been out of her home for 18 months. During those 18 months, she has:

1. moved out of her childhood home

2. found a place to live

3. learned to live on her own (cooking for herself, keeping her place clean, dealing with landlords/rents/roommates).

4. learned how to find jobs and pay her bills on minimum wage

5. found a boyfriend, dated for possibly the first time

6. fell in love with the boyfriend

7. decided to get married

8. engaged in some sort of sexual contact (I mean, she's engaged!)

9. dealt with angry parents who wanted to "govern the process"

10. dealt with any grief associated with her parents' behavior, and the fact her parents and sibs will not be at her wedding

11. decided she had to elope because of family situation

12. decided to leave Washington and her entire extended family and move thousands of miles away 

11. planned her move to Arizona

12. started looking for Jobs/apartments in Arizona

I really don't think she's had time to completely overhaul her belief system just yet. 18 months ago, her mother was limiting her fiction reading to 2 hours a week!

[JermajestyDuggar]

Karen only moved out last summer. She's been on her own for less than a year now. That's why I am worried she's jumping into marriage too quickly. This is all very new and she's very young.

[refugee]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Karen only moved out last summer. She's been on her own for less than a year now. That's why I am worried she's jumping into marriage too quickly. This is all very new and she's very young.

I hope she hasn’t internalized the teaching that she’s incomplete (or even nothing) without a man.

[Bazinga]

Can someone please explain the whole "given the process" thing. I'm missing it on my search to figure out what I missed.

[Hisey]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Karen only moved out last summer. She's been on her own for less than a year now. That's why I am worried she's jumping into marriage too quickly. This is all very new and she's very young.

Was it just last summer? I thought it was longer. Then she has really dealt with a lot in the last 7-8 months.

17 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

Can someone please explain the whole "given the process" thing. I'm missing it on my search to figure out what I missed.

I think that "governing the process" means that the young man approaches Bob asking for permission to "court" Karen. Bob asks the boy questions about his intentions, views on birth control, homeschooling, theology, etc. If the kid recites the correct answers, Bob lets him date Karen with all sorts of rules and guidelines in place, and perhaps even chaperones. After a while, the kid approaches Bob for permission to marry his daughter, and if Bob (and Erika, I presume) gives it a green light, the kid asks Karen. I'm sure Bob and Erika would love it if they were present at the proposal, like with the Bates family. That's what governing the process means in the fundie world, more or less.

Instead, it appears Karen and her boyfriend met and decided to date on their own. Bob and Erika have no idea what his views on homeschooling, birth control or submission are. Perhaps they don't even know if he is a Christian or not! They do not know if he drinks green smoothies in the morning, or if he reads fiction for 2.5 hours a day. He could be a gamer or celebrate Halloween or any number of evil things. Bob and Erika are out of the picture, and nobody cares what their opinion is. Karen and her boyfriend seem to feel they are perfectly capable of managing their own relationship.