Family Living on Purpose (FLOP) : Erika Shupe Pt 11

[elliha]

21 minutes ago, FunFunFundie said:

Is this Melanie with Karen?  Dressed for a Halloween party?  Taking a picture inside the Shupe household?  With Bob in the background?  Decidedly immodest?  I can't figure out if it's Melanie or not, though.

ETA: It's not for Halloween, it was early in October for a masquerade party, although I'm sure that used to be equally Satan-ish.

If I remember correctly the Shupes were quite a lot into dress up and did attend masquerade parties even at the height of fundiedom but the dresses would hardly have passed the test then, at least not without a sweater or something underneath. If I remember correctly Erika was even shamed by some even fundier woman for a dress in a dress up photo one of the girls were wearing which the poster thought was too immodest. Erika stood up to her for a while but I think that in the end she removed the picture.

[Howl]

1 hour ago, FunFunFundie said:

Is this Melanie with Karen?  Dressed for a Halloween party?  Taking a picture inside the Shupe household?  With Bob in the background?  Decidedly immodest?  I can't figure out if it's Melanie or not, though.

ETA: It's not for Halloween, it was early in October for a masquerade party, although I'm sure that used to be equally Satan-ish.

Is there a Shupe dog in the household and is that the dog in the background on the left side of the pic?

[JillyO]

19 minutes ago, Howl said:

Is there a Shupe dog in the household and is that the dog in the background on the left side of the pic?

Yeah, that's the Shupe's dog, Happy.

I can't tell if the girl on the right is Melanie or not. I don't think Karen is that much taller than her sister, but since we don't see her shoes, she could just be wearing heels. I hope it's Melanie, and I especially hope she's next to move out and start her life!

[mango_fandango]

It looks like Melanie to me. It makes sense if Karen was back at the Shupe house; if it was a friend, why would they go to Erika's?

[ActualReality]

On 11/4/2017 at 10:06 AM, FunFunFundie said:

Is this Melanie with Karen?  Dressed for a Halloween party?  Taking a picture inside the Shupe household?  With Bob in the background?  Decidedly immodest?  I can't figure out if it's Melanie or not, though.

ETA: It's not for Halloween, it was early in October for a masquerade party, although I'm sure that used to be equally Satan-ish.

The girls look really pretty in their very immodest dresses.  I seem to recall Erika struggling a lot with the 2 oldest girls' desire for more independence.  Looks like they finally go it.  Good for them!!  Now that both Jinger and Karen are free this site might need to change it's name to Free Melanie!  LOL!

[FunFunFundie]

Karen has posted a picture on her Facebook of some sort of MLM cleanse progress. Nothing too out of the ordinary - I have no love for th MLMs but I see these types of “progress” photos all the time.

But it is Karen Shupe, in a public post, in pants AND A BRA.

It’s been, what, 18 months since Karen was allowed to wear pants because a visible crotch invited men to sin? She’s come so far!

[JermajestyDuggar]

I bet her mom doesn't approve but at least she feels free to do it. 

[Howl]

I'm so for these women slipping away from fundy-dom and support them 100% as they explore new avenues in their lives.  

However, they set themselves up as leaders and arbiters of a certain type of holy life, with the subtext that if you adopted certain aspects of this life (modesty, purity, SAHD, courtship, patriarchy) it would manifest in, basically, God liking you more, a LOT more.  That these women NEVER blog or facebook about these changes, how they came about and the changes in their beliefs annoys me to no end!  

It is also interesting to me that, with the Penningtons and the Shupes, the earthquake level changes came about through their teen aged daughters needing more freedom to live their lives.  I really do think that they came to a point where they would rather change than lose their children.

Interesting times. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

@howl I agree. I also wish they would talk more openly about it. Cynthia Jeub has a thread and that's a great start but I would love to hear more from the mothers and fathers of these families. I would love that perspective but I doubt we will get it anytime soon. 

Notice it's almost always the daughters rebelling. That's not a coincidence. The boys most definitely get more freedom than the girls. That's why the daughters rebel. They see their brothers being treated completely differently than themselves. They see their brothers having more freedom, more education oportunities, and more job opportunities. Who wouldn't be upset about that? Not everyone wants to stay at home and wipe noses and asses for 20 years straight. Actually I know very few women who even wanted to SAH with their young kids for only a few years. Most moms I know wanted to get back to work. The fact that I SAH with my kids is kind of an oddity in my peer group.

[quiversR4hunting]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Notice it's almost always the daughters rebelling. That's not a coincidence. The boys most definitely get more freedom than the girls.

<sniped >

The only boys I have seen "rebel" are the older Keller men (or man, can't remember how many older sons they have) I would love, love, love if he would write about gtowing up and his changing beliefs, etc. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

<sniped >

The only boys I have seen "rebel" are the older Keller men (or man, can't remember how many older sons they have) I would love, love, love if he would write about gtowing up and his changing beliefs, etc. 

One Keller brother. The two youngest Keller children are still quite in the fold from what I've seen. I suppose you can say Josh Duggar tried to rebel but I don't know if I would characterize it that way. He still has done many things cult approved. 

[themothership]

I love the way some lady asked “Karen have you been hacked honey?”
Karen was all “no, why?”

I love it!

[mango_fandango]

Side-eye at the MLM usage but at least she’s not shilling essential oils. That market is saturated (ahem) enough.

She looks great, though. It’s common to want to show off any weight loss! 

[closetcagebaby]

On 12/31/2017 at 12:13 PM, themothership said:

I love the way some lady asked “Karen have you been hacked honey?”
Karen was all “no, why?”

I love it!

I noticed this too! It has to be a comment on her “immodesty” right? Good on Karen for not taking the bait. 

[refugee]

On 12/31/2017 at 5:17 AM, Howl said:

I really do think that they came to a point where they would rather change than lose their children.

Yup. Have seen both sides of this. Our family changed, and I get flack on my Facebook from the “true believers” these days. We know others who walked away from churches (and even marriage to a controlling, abusive spouse); alternatively, we know families that have dug in deeper, and in stubborn pride, wait for their “prodigals” to come home, cherry picking bible verses to justify themselves.

You’re right. I would love to see these women that I looked up to as mentors who “had it all together” and were “making it work” post publicly about why and how they changed.

On 12/31/2017 at 5:41 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I would love to hear more from the mothers and fathers of these families. I would love that perspective but I doubt we will get it anytime soon. 

I posted a lot more about the process we were going thru, some time back here in FJ, but I ended up annoying some people. I’m not sure what I did. Expressed too much raw pain, as I was processing? (We were losing our teens, and it was tearing me apart.) People thought I was a troll making it all up for attention? I don’t know. I did get some helpful responses from some FJ folks, and I am grateful for those.

[refugee]

On 12/31/2017 at 5:41 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Notice it's almost always the daughters rebelling. That's not a coincidence. The boys most definitely get more freedom than the girls.

I have puzzled over this for years (kids walking away in general, that is, not the ratios). First, while we were still firmly in the grip of the brainwashing, it was the effort to discern “what went wrong” so that we would not be at risk of our own kids walking away. (How ironic.)

Nowadays, it’s more in wonder at how many kids stay in situations that I’m told (evil gossip!) are, under that shiny, “happy,” got-it-all-together veneer, toxic.

I cheer for the ones who get out and try to make something positive despite the hobbles their parents’ choices have tied around their ankles. I grieve for the ones who seem to be throwing their lives away. Sounds judgmental, but I’m talking about things like heavy drug and alcohol use that wreaks havoc on the body.

I wonder if fewer boys walk away because they’re not equipped to support themselves outside the church community/family economy? And as you said, they have more freedom inside the culture? (Unless they’re not “heteronormative” (or whatever the preferred term might be), in which case, life in that culture is torture.)

Of course, the girls who walk away are certainly not prepared by their upbringing to support themselves, either.

On 12/31/2017 at 7:34 AM, quiversR4hunting said:

<sniped >

The only boys I have seen "rebel" are the older Keller men (or man, can't remember how many older sons they have) I would love, love, love if he would write about gtowing up and his changing beliefs, etc. 

We have seen a number of boys rebel from our former circles. Unfortunately, self-destruction (wild living that looks more like slow suicide than “breaking free”) seems to be a common theme for the majority of them.

[apandaaries]

3 hours ago, refugee said:

<snip>

I wonder if fewer boys walk away because they’re not equipped to support themselves outside the church community/family economy? And as you said, they have more freedom inside the culture? (Unless they’re not “heteronormative” (or whatever the preferred term might be), in which case, life in that culture is torture.)

Of course, the girls who walk away are certainly not prepared by their upbringing to support themselves, either.

We have seen a number of boys rebel from our former circles. Unfortunately, self-destruction (wild living that looks more like slow suicide than “breaking free”) seems to be a common theme for the majority of them.

If there are any stories that you can alter so that identifying clues are fairly hidden which you would like to share, please feel free.  I know I am always incredibly curious.  I wonder especially about how kidults fare when leaving the overly protected nest without the skills most of society teaches -- how do they do with a job, when they've never held a schedule? What jobs do they get, with their limited skill set and stunted education?

Also of particular curiosity to me, does it seem like these highly structured and regimented patriarchal regimes attract men with peculiar characteristics? That is to say, does this structured religion help contain/socially explain aberrations of mentality that would normally attract the attention of social welfare networks? And then when that highly regimented structure is removed, symptoms of mental illness fill the void? 

Not to say that every "patriarch" is pathological, but I am thinking of the Shrader men at the moment.  John is second generation, but his brothers have all moved away from The One True Path.  We have indications that his father, Rick, is unable to understand the reality we all share in subtle ways, nothing major (ie, ignoring the cries of a very troubled son on social media while rewarding John for his "mission" in Zambia; treating his daughter's widower as trash, basically, for not embracing his limited worldview -- though that widower is also the father of his granddaughter; grifting at every possible opportunity, etc.), but enough to make one wonder.  John appears to be perhaps bipolar or something that  leads to very noticeable and trackable mood swings. Two brothers have fallen away rather silently, but one has clearly tried to get the attention of family via social media, after they spent who knows how long shunning him.  He's also publicly spoken about drug and alcohol abuse.  

Is it possible there's some kind of "perfect storm" that these boys fall into? I ask about men because that seems to be more of the focus of the comments, and I'm also interested in gender-related differences.  Do women have similar issues, or are they less inclined to fall into drugs and alcohol, perhaps finding another pitfall? Fundie life seems both incredibly structured (Maxhell) and also defiant of structures (the many, many families who find issues with keeping this lifestyle going), but moving from that fervent belief in God and The One True Path (whatever that looks like) seems to always throw people into disarray. How much of that is losing belief, or losing structure, or challenging boundaries, or...?

Apologies for the rambles, but I've been thinking a lot about the kids who break free and what happens in the aftermath.  Any and all information is welcome, from whatever quarters. 

[Howl]

@amandaaries, I hope @refugee will respond, but also consider Homeschoolers Anonymous as a resource.  There are first person stories about "leaving."

homeschoolersanonymous.org/

[apandaaries]

@Howl I have read many of those, but they're often rather brief and follow up questions are difficult.  And I'm also curious about an insider's perspective about certain psychological aspects of leaving, and especially what that may look like from an adult's point of view about kidults leaving. Thank you, though!  It's still an awesome resource, just limited in certain ways, as they all are.  

[refugee]

15 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

@Howl I have read many of those, but they're often rather brief and follow up questions are difficult.  And I'm also curious about an insider's perspective about certain psychological aspects of leaving, and especially what that may look like from an adult's point of view about kidults leaving. Thank you, though!  It's still an awesome resource, just limited in certain ways, as they all are.  

Have you read any of the Recovering Grace (I think it is) stories? While those are Gothard-centric, they do reflect the wider community. Either Gothard hugely influenced homeschool leaders in general, or those teaching “authority” and supporting general control-freakery gleaned the same twisted worldview/mindset from the same set of bible verses.

I am thinking about whether I can go into more detail, and my initial gut reaction is “no.” We have tried to be a safe place for escaping kidults, and I don’t want to risk compromising that.

Let’s just say that those with IDs can sometimes get minimum wage jobs, those without might get work in the underground economy, some find sympathetic adults (or those who left earlier and managed to establish themselves) who offer a helping hand or listening ear, some pool their resources to rent a place, some live in their cars, some get so low that they go back to their family to get some food and shelter and feign obedience until they can get strong enough to leave again... it’s a gamut. Or do I mean spectrum?

 

ETA: Those (above) are the stories of kidults we know who have escaped or been kicked out. The stories of those whose parents came to their senses are better because they are more likely to get parental help in the form of helping them get into college or getting therapy or mental health treatment that they didn’t get in the fundie community because fundies are taught mental illness is a manifestation of sin and selfishness.

[refugee]

7 hours ago, amandaaries said:

Apologies for the rambles, but I've been thinking a lot about the kids who break free and what happens in the aftermath.  Any and all information

After giving it some more thought, here is a jumble of generalities that represent real-life situations.

Cynthia Jeub’s blog (which I understand is being recovered from archive.org) and her thread here have a lot of information, too.

I know a few who have broken free, have lived through hell, and are overcoming. The majority (of the ones we know personally) are a work in progress. Then there are those who seem to be doing their utmost to prove all the self-righteous christians right about the ruination that is predicted for those who leave. (Gee, that kind of strikes me as a bell curve description.)

One really difficult thing for several of the kidults we know (a common grief, several different families) is that their access to their siblings is either completely cut off or severely restricted as long as they continue to insist that they have a right to live their own lives and not parrot their parents’ beliefs.

The parents fear the escapees might “corrupt” the younger ones and lead them away from the “christian worldview” and all that entails, or their “rebellion” might be contagious and the younger ones might grow up to think their own thoughts and not the thoughts their parents want them to think.

The parents think they’re right, you see. Too much “sunk cost,” maybe? Afraid to honestly question what they believe? Thinking if they just try harder it will all come out right? (We were stuck in that place for awhile, ourselves, so I understand the mindset as well as the futility in trying to get people to re-think what they think of as “safety” in a scary world.)

Some parents, like the Jeubs (according to Cynthia’s blog), reportedly throw their older (or “disrespectful”) children out and then turn around and claim that they encouraged the kid to move out and be independent, even helped them to stand on their own two feet. You hear two different stories, the kid who says “they threw me out” and the parents who say otherwise. We know a few of these.

Other parents give their kids an ultimatum and then are surprised and grieved when the kid takes them up on it. And then there are the ones that seem more self-righteous than grieved.

Hope that helps to give an inkling of the wide variety of dynamics in play: as many as there are personalities.

[lilith]

It must be so confusing for Melanie and Karen. Erika was SO black and white and self righteous - ever choice she made was billed as the ONLY righteous Christian way, and she was very nasty and condescending to those who had different standards.

Then, suddenly, everything changed. She refuses to discuss it publicly, but it must have been an extremely difficult and emotional time in the Shupe household. It was NOT a gradual shift away from legalism and into god’s grace. I suspect maybe Bob finally put his foot down and demanded a normal life - he never really seemed totally onboard with the extreme fundie life.

But suddenly things that the kids had always been told weee sinful and worldly and wrong were ok. No matter how much they might be enjoying the advantages of Erika’s new attitude it’s got to be incredibly confusing for them. They’ve been told that public school is a satanic den of government indoctrination and that only nasty feminist mothers who don’t care about their kids send their children there. Then suddenly their younger siblings are climbing on the school bus every morning. They’ve been told that immodest dress causes their brothers in Christ to lust, that pants create eye traps that cause men to stare at their crotches, that proper girls wear skirts below the knees at all times....... and suddenly their parents are allowing short skirts, pants, tank tops for them but also for the little sisters they were heavily involved in raising. It must be so confusing for them, especially if they believed their mother’s teachings, and i hope they aren’t dealing with too much guilt.

Abd Erika - when you’ve arrogantly claimed that your lifestyle and rules were the ONLY godly way to live for over a decade, on very public platforms, criticising and condemning anyone whose standards vary from yours in any way, you do owe those who took your advice an explanation for your total and sudden change of heart. You don’t get to just say it’s a private family matter that you don’t wish to share. 

[Howl]

I still get a little giggle over this:  IIRC, Erika outed herself when she inadvertently mentioned something related to the kids being in school, after they'd actually been in the ebil government indoctrination camp regular public school for awhile.  Alternately, she deliberately dropped that little gem to see if anyone was paying attention. 

I'm quite curious to know if they have continued in the same church throughout the arc of the Shupe family adventures in fundy-dom. 

[Hane]

I still think that the Big Switch came when Bob’s clients started making fun of Erika’s blog. IIRC, it happened not long after she posted some anti-Halloween stuff while he had some Halloween jokes posted on his FB or business website. He saw negative reactions to her blog as dangerous to his ability to keep clients. And I think he wasn’t jazzed about supporting his adult daughters while they waited for Prince Charming.

[Emilycharlotte]

I remember the Halloween kerfuffle but not the part where his clients made fun of Erica's blog. Where did you see that?