Anna, Josh, and the M-Kids, Part 10: Genes and Bedsheets

[Georgiana]

On 4/16/2017 at 9:53 AM, Million Children For Jesus said:

Guilty of this. I wanted to be a foster parent, but never followed through because my kids were too little and I didn't want to potentially put them in danger of kid on kid abuse. Bringing a perpetrator into the house? No way. A victim? Everyone hears about victims flipping and turning into perpetrators, so that's a risk factor, too. Now that my kids are grown, it has been on my mind to look into it again, but now I'm too old and tired! I also don't have the resources I used to have. Sigh. Maybe it's not meant to be. 

This actually happened with my cousins.  Both my cousins (and both my siblings) were adopted from the US Foster system.  My aunt and uncle later looked to adopt two older girls, who were really lovely.  But sadly, they were victims of abuse and were found to be abusing each other and my (younger) cousins.  The fact was that these girls needed to at least temporarily be isolated from anyone vulnerable because the risk of abuse was just too high.

I don't think they meant to victimize my cousins.  I think they were just trying to process what they had been through.  But sadly, that is exactly what happened and they had to be removed from the home just before the adoption was set to be finalized.  It was all very sad.  

There was also a girl who LOVED my family (and my mom especially) and REALLY wanted to come live with us (she stayed with us a few times while her former foster family was on vacation).  She was going to be up for long term placement with expected adoption, and the state and her caseworker were really hoping my family would take her.  But she and I were unable to form any sort of healthy relationship, and I vetoed that.  She was 8 ish I think?  I was 10?  Somewhere in there.  I still think about her sometimes, and I feel bad about denying her what was possibly her only chance at a stable, loving home, but her behavior to me was really bad and honestly it would have been her or me.  

Foster care is rough, man.  

[mpheels]

On 4/16/2017 at 0:53 PM, Million Children For Jesus said:

Guilty of this. I wanted to be a foster parent, but never followed through because my kids were too little and I didn't want to potentially put them in danger of kid on kid abuse. Bringing a perpetrator into the house? No way. A victim? Everyone hears about victims flipping and turning into perpetrators, so that's a risk factor, too. Now that my kids are grown, it has been on my mind to look into it again, but now I'm too old and tired! I also don't have the resources I used to have. Sigh. Maybe it's not meant to be. 

I've thought a lot about being a foster parent. I'm several years away from even being in a position to pursue it (finishing up a PhD, starting a postdoc... will be at least two years before I'm stable/settled in a city and job). I do think it's important to know your limits - there is no shame in acknowledging that you can't provide the type of home and support a kid needs while also meeting the needs of all other parties involved. If/when I do become a foster parent, I'm more likely to do emergency/short term foster care - I'm good in a crisis and in an academic field that generally supports flexible scheduling. I know I would be really good at providing a safe, welcoming space for a week, and I could easily be overwhelmed by managing long term behavioral, emotional, and/or health challenges.

[KelseyAnn]

1 minute ago, mpheels said:

I've thought a lot about being a foster parent. I'm several years away from even being in a position to pursue it (finishing up a PhD, starting a postdoc... will be at least two years before I'm stable/settled in a city and job). I do think it's important to know your limits - there is no shame in acknowledging that you can't provide the type of home and support a kid needs while also meeting the needs of all other parties involved. If/when I do become a foster parent, I'm more likely to do emergency/short term foster care - I'm good in a crisis and in an academic field that generally supports flexible scheduling. I know I would be really good at providing a safe, welcoming space for a week, and I could easily be overwhelmed by managing long term behavioral, emotional, and/or health challenges.

 

The nice thing about foster care, is that there is a ton of financial support that comes with it. Also, you might look into respite care, where you just kids for a weekend every now and then. You can also request 'easier' kids or older kids. 

As someone who was in the system, but knowing that I likely can't handle young kids because of my impatience and anger issues, I would likely just stick to old 'less' troubled children. 

[apandaaries]

3 hours ago, mpheels said:

I've thought a lot about being a foster parent. I'm several years away from even being in a position to pursue it (finishing up a PhD, starting a postdoc... will be at least two years before I'm stable/settled in a city and job). I do think it's important to know your limits - there is no shame in acknowledging that you can't provide the type of home and support a kid needs while also meeting the needs of all other parties involved. If/when I do become a foster parent, I'm more likely to do emergency/short term foster care - I'm good in a crisis and in an academic field that generally supports flexible scheduling. I know I would be really good at providing a safe, welcoming space for a week, and I could easily be overwhelmed by managing long term behavioral, emotional, and/or health challenges.

For those of you who are interested in helping kids in foster care, there is also CASA (court appointed special advocate) in a number of areas. There is special training involved to become a child's advocate in the court system.  Your role is just to try to do what is best for the child/ren.  It is a really interesting program and could be worth investigating for those who want to help, but aren't in the position to offer a full time home: http://www.casaforchildren.org/site/c.mtJSJ7MPIsE/b.5301309/k.9D58/Volunteering.htm

[Letgo]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:41 PM, RosyDaisy said:

You cannot convince me Josh didn't have opportunities to be with other girls. That's too many for parents to keep tabs on. Also, what about the 5 year old? That's not curiosity. Josh's fucked up upbringing didn't cause this. Josh did. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

But there were "only" around 14 kids when Josh started molesting! That's not that many. Easy to keep track of only 14.

Oh, Josh definitely knew what he was doing was wrong, and he did do it anyway. I'd bet he felt guilty from the first time he did it and every time after that, too. A five year old victim can be curiosity. Or opportunity. Exploration, lust, whatever it was. Josh has problems. He's had them since at least adolescence and has probably received no real therapy EVER to find out WHY he has sexual issues, other than it is sin. Well, yes, it is sin. But why? Why did Josh molest his five victims? Why did he cheat on his wife? Make an Ashley Madison account? View porn? Become addicted to porn? This is an ongoing problem for Josh. I don't think it has disappeared or that he has been "healed" of his sin. Possible, but I doubt it.

How would Josh be alone with other girls? The family does things together, always. When Josh was a young teen he had a buddy or two, I think, although that ended for the boys after Josh molested his sisters. (I think JB said they did things differently with the kids after Josh's molestations.) The buddies would hang around Josh, making it difficult to be alone with a girl. Grooming takes time. Even finding another willing teenager would take some time and Josh would never have had that.  Every family with whom they associate is "like-minded" so other girls they knew would also not want to be alone with a boy. Remember, Cousin Amy said the Duggar cousins were not allowed to go to her house, she had to come to theirs so she could be supervised-their own cousin couldn't be alone with them! How could it possibly be okay for a non-family member to be alone with Josh? Also, the siblings watch each other. Remember the story of one of the girls having a copy of Twilight and being reported to JB and Michelle? Haven't the kids said that Jill would always tell on her siblings out of love, because she wanted the best for them? Or some such altruistic reason. I think Josh would have had a tough time finding a victim outside of his own home-or a willing partner. No time, opportunity, and a large group watching at all times. Plus his potential pool of victims (or willing partners) would have the same conditions.

I think all the Duggar kids, not just Josh, are victims of their family's system of belief-just look at the scandal with Bill Gothard himself and how it has been handled. And how the workers and Journey to the Heart kids were treated. The "interns" at Gothard's HQ were not allowed to speak with members of the opposite sex for more than a few seconds, even brothers and sisters. You are a terrible sinner, what have you done, confess!  These people have a really "off" viewpoint on pretty mush everything. There is no way to tell if Josh would have molested if he had been raised in a less repressive family, but being raised Gothard certainly didn't help, and he would have stood a better chance of getting real help had he been in a normal family.

[Million Children For Jesus]

21 hours ago, mpheels said:

I do think it's important to know your limits - there is no shame in acknowledging that you can't provide the type of home and support a kid needs while also meeting the needs of all other parties involved

Snipped < is that what I'm supposed to write? I'm still new here

Thank you for saying this. Even from a young age, I felt strongly that I wanted to be a foster parent, and it haunts me that I wasn't able to bring that goal to fruition. I mean, I'm not dead yet, but a lot would have to happen to make it plausible. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

22 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Foster care is rough, man.  

Snipped again 

Thank you for sharing. My ex-husband was abused as a foster child, by both children and adults. My best friend is a social worker who has adopted children from the system. I have had other friends accused and abused by inept social workers, and those are especially tragic cases. It's like being in Chinese handcuffs, guilty until proven innocent.

One person I know fired an employee, so she retaliated by claiming she saw his daughter in pornographic pictures in his office. His office got raided. No pictures existed, but it took weeks with his daughter in foster care for the cops to go through all of the hard drives. Another woman had uncles punch each other at a holiday party at her house, an isolated incident, but one of her kids was present, so CPS drug tested HER, (but neither uncle), told her they were charging her with child endangerment, took the kids out of school to interview them, alone!,   with the social worker and no other adult present!, even the child that wasn't home at the time, and then interviewed all of her neighbors. It goes on and on. Somebody called on my neighbor when her kid played on the front lawn alone.

I know there is good and bad on both sides, but it's a broken system. CPS is largely autonomous, so you have abuse of authority, along with ridiculous caseloads. We have a current social climate of parent shaming, so the number of complaints CPS gets is staggering. People will complain for the dumbest reasons because they're being vindictive or judgmental, and not realize/care that they are taking away limited resources from kids who really need them. I know some cases have settled against social workers directly, not CPS, in cases where social workers lied to judges about evidence in order to get search warrants. I'm expecting the whole thing to have a catastrophic implosion any minute now. 

I hope this post makes sense. I'm in bed fighting off a nap. 

[Jana814]

Their was a breast cancer doctor who was killed (hit by a car) in my area a few weeks ago. She and her husband adopted a few kids through the state of New Jersery. Their were so many tributes for this woman. She adopted these kids because she wanted to give them a good life and she was able too. 

[quiversR4hunting]

I can't find anyone mentioning this on a thread so throwing it on this thread since it is about Josh. (I looked at the general duggar thread and this one -sorry if it has already been discussed).

Life & Style Mag has an "exclusive" about Josh being questioned in the lawsuit over Ashley Madison Profile. I wonder how quickly we  TMZ can get the transcript and publish it after he testifies.

http://www.lifeandstylemag.com/posts/josh-duggar-cheating-scandal-ashley-madison-130412

I still cringe when I read about them quietly working to save our marriage. (Quote from the article). Ugh. If they think their marriage is fixed after only 2 years of work after cheating they are both sipping high amounts of delusional kool-aid.

Quote

For nearly the last two years, we have quietly worked to save our marriage, focus on our children, and rebuild our lives together as a family,” they wrote in a joint statement.

 Anna had a choice and she chose to stay with her crappy in-laws instead of going to live with her brother. I can't even image the mental gymnastics that must go on to have sex with a husband that has admitted to cheating and molestation.

[unicorncastle]

 Anna had a choice and she chose to stay with her crappy in-laws instead of going to live with her brother. I can't even image the mental gymnastics that must go on to have sex with a husband that has admitted to cheating and molestation.


Anna has the illusion of choice. In reality she would love everything and everyone that she's ever known. She was told it was her fault. Why would she leave him if she thought it was HER fault? Not to mention she had 4 kids with no education, no job, no skills.

I thought I read something where they were questioning if Josh physically cheated on her (josh wasn't where the woman that came forward said he was) or if cheating meant looking at porn and having the accounts. Do we know definitively that he physically had sex with someone else?

Lastly, Anna knew about the molestation thing before she married him and she had no issue having 4 kids with him.

[twinmama]

On 4/3/2017 at 3:55 AM, VeganCupcake said:

As parents they enabled Josh by letting him basically get away with it. Then he moved on to the very young victim! He should have been removed/sent for REAL treatment immediately. 

To me, the parents REFUSING to protect their little girls from the abuser is equally as monstrous as what Josh did because they were complicit. 

In addition, Josh was obviously old enough to know what he was doing was wrong, but he does have youthful stupidity on his side to explain why it happened. His parents were fucking adults who had a job to protect their kids and willfully ignored that.

[Georgiana]

On 4/18/2017 at 2:55 PM, Million Children For Jesus said:

Snipped again 

Thank you for sharing. My ex-husband was abused as a foster child, by both children and adults. My best friend is a social worker who has adopted children from the system. I have had other friends accused and abused by inept social workers, and those are especially tragic cases. It's like being in Chinese handcuffs, guilty until proven innocent.

One person I know fired an employee, so she retaliated by claiming she saw his daughter in pornographic pictures in his office. His office got raided. No pictures existed, but it took weeks with his daughter in foster care for the cops to go through all of the hard drives. Another woman had uncles punch each other at a holiday party at her house, an isolated incident, but one of her kids was present, so CPS drug tested HER, (but neither uncle), told her they were charging her with child endangerment, took the kids out of school to interview them, alone!,   with the social worker and no other adult present!, even the child that wasn't home at the time, and then interviewed all of her neighbors. It goes on and on. Somebody called on my neighbor when her kid played on the front lawn alone.

I know there is good and bad on both sides, but it's a broken system. CPS is largely autonomous, so you have abuse of authority, along with ridiculous caseloads. We have a current social climate of parent shaming, so the number of complaints CPS gets is staggering. People will complain for the dumbest reasons because they're being vindictive or judgmental, and not realize/care that they are taking away limited resources from kids who really need them. I know some cases have settled against social workers directly, not CPS, in cases where social workers lied to judges about evidence in order to get search warrants. I'm expecting the whole thing to have a catastrophic implosion any minute now. 

I hope this post makes sense. I'm in bed fighting off a nap. 

I am so sorry for anyone who has to experience the US Foster care system.  Even if their experience while in the care of the state is stellar, the only way you get into foster care is by going through something no child should have to go through, whether that be coming from a terrible home or "just" being ripped away from your parents out of overzealous concern.  And then so many experiences in the system are NOT stellar.

I am so sorry the people you knew had to endure false reports.  Those ENRAGE me.  There's also an overwhelming connection between race, poverty, and children being removed from homes.  It destroys communities.  And then meanwhile, the Nauglers get to use their privilege to keep their kids living on top of Poo Mountain.  

It's so broken, but it's addressing such a serious and intersectional issue that I'm not sure what the fix IS (short of a perfect society).  Most people I knew who were involved in the system went above the call of duty and gave whatever they had to try and make it just a LITTLE better.  

To those of you even thinking about becoming foster parents: thank you. It's a rough road, but also one that can be SO rewarding.  It is so rare in the world that we are ever given the opportunity as individuals to TRULY make a PROFOUND difference in the lives of others, but I can guarantee you that foster parenting is one where you can single-handedly alter the direction of a young life even in only 72 hours (crisis nursery).  If you are interested, I encourage you to look into the licensing classes.  Even if you are not ready to commit, they will give you an idea of what options are available to help in your area.  If you cannot parent but want to help, consider making/donating security items like blankees and small stuffed animals for kids who have just lost everything they knew and need something to hold onto.  Those REALLY make a HUGE difference for comforting a child who has just been removed from their home.  Also, essentials in all sizes never go amiss (many kids may be without a coat or shoes or sanitary clothing), and some organizations ask for package snack foods so that kids at least don't have to be hungry while they are waiting.  

Both Catholic and Lutheran Churches also tend to have branches that work with the foster system to provide services.  

[marmalade]

4 hours ago, unicorncastle said:

*snip*

Lastly, Anna knew about the molestation thing before she married him and she had no issue having 4 kids with him.

We really don't know what exactly Anna knew before Joshgate broke. We don't know what the Duggars told the Kellers. It could have been as vague as, "Josh had some temptations with sin when he was younger." A parent wouldn't greenlight a courtship for their daughter with a known molester. WOULD THEY? I totally believe that if they knew, they didn't tell Anna the full truth of the matter. 

I get it about repenting, but as Josh later proved with Joshley Madison, he never really resolved his issues with women. Construction Jesus Jail didn't help him as a teen, and I seriously doubt that RU helped him as an adult. RU ADMITS that they don't have trained psychologists on staff. 

Okay then, Anna. What are you going to do when Josh cheats again? Because there WILL be a next time. 

[ophelia]

10 hours ago, marmalade said:

We really don't know what exactly Anna knew before Joshgate broke. We don't know what the Duggars told the Kellers. It could have been as vague as, "Josh had some temptations with sin when he was younger." A parent wouldn't greenlight a courtship for their daughter with a known molester. WOULD THEY? I totally believe that if they knew, they didn't tell Anna the full truth of the matter.

That is what I thought. And then Tabby Paine was married off to a guy that raped a woman.

[eveandadam]

17 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

 I can't even image the mental gymnastics that must go on to have sex with a husband that has admitted to cheating and molestation.

The brainwashing must be so deep with those women. Tabitha Paine knowingly married a guy who raped a women, freely and probably happily said yes at the altar. Youthful stupidity cannot be applied to her as she was 31 when she got married. At 31 you should be able to weigh the pros and cons and be able to stand up for yourself even if the whole family is against you. At 20 it would have been understandable, but at 31?

Anna was offered help by various people in and outside of her family to get a divorce and start a new life. she denied all of it. her fault...

I'm sorry, but I've stopped feeling sorry for those women now. They are adult women around 30 who make adult decisions. No compassion from my side...Once you hit 25/26 or so...the decisions you make...should be all on you!

[quiversR4hunting]

15 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

<snip>

Anna was offered help by various people in and outside of her family to get a divorce and start a new life. she denied all of it. her fault...

I'm sorry, but I've stopped feeling sorry for those women now. They are adult women around 30 who make adult decisions. No compassion from my side...Once you hit 25/26 or so...the decisions you make...should be all on you!

(my bolding) I agree with this 1,000,000%. Yes there is brainwashing but with Anna she has a support group outside the cult AND they offered to help her, like you stated. She stayed with her in-laws. At some point these kids/women/adults become victims and perpetrators of their own prison legalistic beliefs.

Unlike some of the FLDS women, Gothard/VF women do see the outside world they do have access to information, they can use their brains! But they don't. I think Anna has struggled with her decision in one of the interviews with her during the show she said something like "I don't want to make it worse." and she looked really sad and defeated. One day she may figure out that she is making it worse by staying and showing her girls that they must stay in a bad marriage with adultery and showing her boys that it is ok for men to follow their penis and take no responsibility for their actions besides "I'm sorry" but not actually change. (I hope she reads here.)

12 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Both Catholic and Lutheran Churches also tend to have branches that work with the foster system to provide services.

you mean <gasp> real charity? Real missionary work? In 'Merica? Not in a far off place? you mean take in dirty urchin children that might pollute my own precious godly children? Please hurry and get the vapors you must be mistaken! Real missionaries only work in foreign country with not the right kind of Christian religion (tm) 

Seriously, I am glad you brought this up the Catholic & Lutheran services do a good job on putting money where they preach of helping others.

Side story, a former classmate of mine has started doing foster care. She home schools her kids. She was annoyed that she must send the foster care kids to public school. She now only fosters kids under school age. I wonder if the foster kids were coming home with awesome stories of school activities and her kids started to get ideas. This classmate of mine was in a lot of activities when we were in MS/HS- band, orchestra, NHS, SADD, went to prom, class officer, homecoming, dances, etc.

[Bad Wolf]

Anna needed professional help. She needed someone impartial who could non judgmentally show her what might happen if she stayed or left. Give her time to figure out her best course of action, and be aware of the resources she might be able to use. Instead, she was surrounded by Duggars, and sent to live in the girls' dorm.

[Fascinated]

I've said this before but it disturbs me a bit that we have removed any agency from Anna.  She made a decision.  It doesn't seem likely that she didn't consider her options. She may be deeply embedded in the cult, yes, but that does not mean that she simply forgave Josh and took him back without careful consideration. We have no idea who she talked to, if she received counseling or whether she just prayed about it (I hope not).  But, she is a grown woman and a mother. Just because she chose a different path than some (most) of us would, it was her decision to make, not ours.  

[Wenny]

Aren't Josh and Anne expecting a little boy soon? like in Oct? If they know it is a boy then she would be 15-20 week range

[HarleyQuinn]

24 minutes ago, Wenny said:

Aren't Josh and Anne expecting a little boy soon? like in Oct? If they know it is a boy then she would be 15-20 week range

I didn't think they announced the sex or due date/month yet? Did I miss something?

[TeaGrannie]

6 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I didn't think they announced the sex or due date/month yet? Did I miss something?

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-moms/news/anna-and-josh-duggar-expecting-a-baby-boy-w472682

And confirmed by the Duggars. No date but it's a boy.

 

[eveandadam]

11 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I didn't think they announced the sex or due date/month yet? Did I miss something?

The speculation is that Anna could be even further along than Jill.

[Fun Undies]

On 4/18/2017 at 4:28 PM, Million Children For Jesus said:

Snipped < is that what I'm supposed to write? I'm still new here

Thank you for saying this. Even from a young age, I felt strongly that I wanted to be a foster parent, and it haunts me that I wasn't able to bring that goal to fruition. I mean, I'm not dead yet, but a lot would have to happen to make it plausible. 

@Million Children For Jesus I just closed out my foster license last month ~ and it sucks.  My parents were foster parents for about 10 years, and we adopted my three brothers through the system <3  I then went on to be a relative foster care provider for my youngest brother for just about two years in a voluntary foster placement, and then had plans to do respite for any and all kids ~ unfortunately my current health issues don't allow me to pursue it any longer, and closing that chapter of my life, when I was really hoping to adopt eventually really, really sucks.

Like, @KelseyAnn said, you can request "easier" kids in a respite setting.  In our area, it's usual an overnight, or two nights at a time, and you can certainly do just one weekend a month (nothing says you have to do every weekend :D).  Though obviously, you have to do what you're capable of - last thing this system needs is another caregiver burned out!!

Happy to PM/DM about it, if you're looking for feedback, or support, or just venting!

[VBOY9977]

3 hours ago, eveandadam said:

The speculation is that Anna could be even further along than Jill.

I dont think she is tbh. from the fan pics that came out of the days when they were in the ark encounter and the air force museum, she barely looks like she has a belly. I'd say she's like 4 months along

[Four is Enough]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:37 PM, Fascinated said:

I've said this before but it disturbs me a bit that we have removed any agency from Anna.  She made a decision.  It doesn't seem likely that she didn't consider her options. She may be deeply embedded in the cult, yes, but that does not mean that she simply forgave Josh and took him back without careful consideration. We have no idea who she talked to, if she received counseling or whether she just prayed about it (I hope not).  But, she is a grown woman and a mother. Just because she chose a different path than some (most) of us would, it was her decision to make, not ours.  

To me, all indications point to her turning everything upon herself.

"If I follow my feelings, it'll be a disaster." (I'm not allowed to be angry over this. Men stray. Women must forgive.")

"We have a covenant marriage." ("I'm not going to be the one who gives up on God, so I'm stuck with this jerkwad")

"I'm the only one who can provide his special needs" (Clearly I wasn't providing enough)

TBH, I don't mind thinking that she spent time in prayer.. sometimes, the prayer is, "Lord, give me the strength not to kill him" afterall.

And, as Fascinated said, not all of us would have taken him back, but some of us would have taken a straying husband back, and nobody knows or understands the reasons, and that's ok.