Anna, Josh, and the M-Kids, Part 10: Genes and Bedsheets

[lomo6]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

I find this odd too. Many Fundies are from regions with very high obesity rates, and yet the rate seems so much lower among Fundies. However, I don't notice a real focus on health the way I do with a lot of Mormons. At least not the Fundies we follow.

Is it a lack of enough food to go around (although, especially if the food being eaten is carb-y junk, that wouldn't necessarily translate to weight less), an avoidance of fast food places for fears of being defrauded, or a hyper awareness of one's image, especially among women?

Yeah, out of the 19 Duggar children, Josh is probably the only one who is even overweight - so about 5% of the total, which is way lower than the adult or childhood obesity rates in any US state as far as I'm aware. I'm not as familiar with the Bateses, but they all seem quite trim from what I've observed.

I wonder if it's a bit of a combination of what you mention - food scarcity when they were younger, and now image-consciousness by the girls in particular (perhaps why you see some of the older married ones turning to healthier foods). Also, while I'm highly critical of the SOTDRT, the kids probably do run around and play way more than their peers at public schools do during the day, and having sistermoms like Jana and Joy plus their views on technology probably means way less screen time than the average American kid.

[Jinder Roles]

Don't forget good 'ol genes. Both Michelle and Jim Bob were quite trim in their youth. Even now, they're looking pretty good all things considered. 

[Melissa1977]

12 hours ago, Galbin said:

I recently watched some old episodes where he and Anna had just gotten engaged and then married. Sure, the sex thing was a bit cringey, but he seemed genuinely in love with her. I think in a non-Fundie world she would have been his first love, but then he would have moved on to someone else in a few years. It's really sad that she feels she has to stay with him. ;(

Really? I had the opposite feeling. Josh made it sound as an arranged marriage. I'm not saying they didn't like each other, plus they enjoyed sex for sure (they basically stated this after the honeymoon and both sounded sincere) but I was unable to find love in those episodes.

in fact, the only time I've seen a genuine happy Josh was when they had Mackenzie.

 

[singsingsing]

The impression I got was that Josh did genuinely like Anna, he thought she was pretty, sweet, and would make a perfect wife. I think he really believed that marriage would cure all of his sexual problems. I mean, why wouldn't he? That's what he'd been told by the authorities in his life over and over again. I'm guessing it didn't take too long for him to realize that wasn't going to be the case. Whether he blamed himself, or Anna, or Satan, or the world is another story.

[Lurker]

@send*the*ferrets - can you put a broom handle throught the handle of the two oven doors?

[Four is Enough]

15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

@send*the*ferrets - can you put a broom handle throught the handle of the two oven doors?

It may not make a difference. I had such a monkey child. Two could figure out ANY baby proofing device made. I remember installing covers onto the outlets. They had a spring operated device that could turn, and then access to the outlet was there. Two was plugging things in in the kitchen while I was still installing covers in the family room. He also took apart a bench in his bedroom with his bare hands. Every Day. I would tighten the bolts with tools, and by end of nap the thing would be wobbly again. Want to get to the top of the dresser? Easy. Just open drawers successively less open and climb like stairs. I could go on forever. And Quiet? Like a panther.

[PumaLover]

I ordered season 2 of 18KAC (I am a very sick person, clearly!) and started watching it last night. I remembered watching all those episodes so many years ago when they were new. At the time I was brainwashed into believing they were this nice, wholesome Christian family.

Now I cringe watching the scenes with Josh and Anna. My heart breaks for her because she genuinely seemed so happy and excited back then. If only she knew what was to come. I still really wish she would leave, but I know she won't.

[Hmmm_idolatry]

On 4/4/2017 at 7:34 AM, Jana814 said:

I honestly don't think that Josh thought what he did was wrong. I have said this before he was treated like a king his whole life. 

I couldn't agree more.  Per the Gothard teachings, if a female is abused, she may have brought it on herself for not being modest enough.  I'm fairly certain that the only people in that house who were criticized and punished for this were the girls.  I doubt Josh feels any remorse or believes he did anything wrong; and I'm fairly certain that JimBob and Michelle feel the same.  

[Galbin]

1 hour ago, PumaLover said:

I ordered season 2 of 18KAC (I am a very sick person, clearly!) and started watching it last night.

Where did you find the full seasons? Is it on Netflix? I have found sporadic episodes on YT, but can't find them all. 

I am sick too.

[Bad Wolf]

I know the girls' bedroom door was locked after that, but did they ever say how? Locked from the inside = smart. Locked from the outside, stupid. What if there's a fire?

[PumaLover]

Where did you find the full seasons? Is it on Netflix? I have found sporadic episodes on YT, but can't find them all. 
I am sick too.

I found it for like 7 bucks on Amazon. That was literally the only season I could find, for some reason. Since I've been reading and learning more on here I've been wanting to go back through and watch the old episodes with fresh eyes.

[send*the*ferrets]

6 hours ago, Lurker said:

@send*the*ferrets - can you put a broom handle throught the handle of the two oven doors?

The way our oven door opens, it wouldn't really stop her from climbing it- she hasn't successfully opened it yet, I'm more afraid of her climbing the top and grabbing onto one of the knobs and turning it on. Like @Four is Enough said, she just sees any new baby proofing as some sort of additional challenge. Hopefully she becomes somewhat reasonable as she gets older ha 

[MayMay1123]

16 minutes ago, send*the*ferrets said:

The way our oven door opens, it wouldn't really stop her from climbing it- she hasn't successfully opened it yet, I'm more afraid of her climbing the top and grabbing onto one of the knobs and turning it on. Like @Four is Enough said, she just sees any new baby proofing as some sort of additional challenge. Hopefully she becomes somewhat reasonable as she gets older ha 

if you can, take the knobs off and put them where she can't get to them...for a while i had poison control on speed dial! ha, not really, but three kids will make life...hectic...

[Chocolatedefrauded]

Tough kids survive! At 2 my daughter locked herself in the bathroom early one Sunday morning & stopped talking. I had 911 on the phone trying to figure out if a fire truck could get to the window of our old house. My husband ended up breaking down the door after we told her to go hide in the bathtub. She as fine. Still no lock on that door!

she also swallowed a whole bottle of Fluoride chewable pills. Poison control couldn't help.(hint - call dentist, they can't swallow enough bottles to do damage.)

she also smeared diaper rash cream all over her head & sleeper  after a bath, to "help" me. It was hard to get off her hair in the second bath.

we should have expected this & more after she chipped a tooth walking near a folding chair at 10 months! At 6 she chipped more front teeth & to avoid a needle, had 4 baby teeth pulled out with no anesthesia! 2 were loose already but still.

things have calmed down & at 12 she no longer requires ER visits. Just urgent care after hours to remove splinters from under fingernails, again without anesthesia. She did scream bloody murder. Fun times. She is tough.

[VixenToast]

4 hours ago, PumaLover said:

I found it for like 7 bucks on Amazon. That was literally the only season I could find, for some reason. Since I've been reading and learning more on here I've been wanting to go back through and watch the old episodes with fresh eyes.

I bought 17kac season 1&2  and 18kac season 1 for myself for Christmas. One of the dvds was like 20 bucks and it was supposed to have three discs, yet only contained one. I returned it and got credit to buy 18kac season 2. All on Amazon. For some reason those ones are really, really difficult to find. I'll be lucky if I can find that other season. For cheap. I've seen the season go for $60!

[onekidanddone]

2 hours ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

Tough kids survive! At 2 my daughter locked herself in the bathroom early one Sunday morning & stopped talking. I had 911 on the phone trying to figure out if a fire truck could get to the window of our old house. My husband ended up breaking down the door after we told her to go hide in the bathtub. She as fine. Still no lock on that door!

she also swallowed a whole bottle of Fluoride chewable pills. Poison control couldn't help.(hint - call dentist, they can't swallow enough bottles to do damage.)

she also smeared diaper rash cream all over her head & sleeper  after a bath, to "help" me. It was hard to get off her hair in the second bath.

we should have expected this & more after she chipped a tooth walking near a folding chair at 10 months! At 6 she chipped more front teeth & to avoid a needle, had 4 baby teeth pulled out with no anesthesia! 2 were loose already but still.

things have calmed down & at 12 she no longer requires ER visits. Just urgent care after hours to remove splinters from under fingernails, again without anesthesia. She did scream bloody murder. Fun times. She is tough.

My kid at three figured out how to open the child proof bottle of calcium chews.  I hear the strange rattling coming from the living room.  I had assumed, oh foolish me, that s he was just sitting calmly watching some PBS show.  I walk in to find out the source of the rattle rattle and there she is stuffing the chews in her mouth.  Called poison control and was told she would be fine.  

I never did trust the "child" proof caps again.  I started having to hide stuff.

At four she and the six year old daughter of a friend of mine smashed heads.  They were jumping on her bed and WHAM my kids scull smashed into older kids chin.  You can imagine in the ER when we walked in with two screaming bleeding children

My Kid got staples.  Friend's kid stitches.  Apparently head woulds bleed like hell even if they are not that serious.

After both kids were discharged they begged to stop for doughnuts at Krispy Kream.  Once there they sat at the counter and spun on the stools.  

Kids are resilient. 

[Chocolatedefrauded]

Yup, child proof caps mostly keep out adults. When I found my daughter opening her fluoride bottle again, at 6, I asked what she was doing, how could she open it. She said, "if they didn't want kids to open bottle, why did they print the instructions there? Don't they know that kids can read?"

touche!

[front hugs > duggs]

I was actually a well behaved child (with a three mostly minor ER visits). However, when I was around two or three, my dad had been in the hospital with my mom for some reason- I can't recall the exact reason now- and my grandma had been watching us. Some doctor went into my mom's room, pulled my dad out in the hall, and told him his toddler daughter was on the way to the ER because of an apparent drug overdose after getting into a pill bottle of my grandma's. He didn't tell my mom, but went down to the ER where the ambulances come in, expecting to see a barely living toddler arrive. Well, the doors open, and there I was giggling and laughing and reaching for my dad. My grandma didn't let me go, which from what I hear was the loudest he ever yelled at her. They gave me the vomiting stuff and I don't think really found much. My dad thinks my grandma miscounted her pills and thought I took some when maybe I didn't.

Other hospital visits? Eating half of my brother's baseball card when I was teething. Accidentally belly flopping off a jungle gym during tag in after school care, resulting in some bruised ribs (and half of the wood chips from the playground all throughout the hospital  )

[sansan]

On 3/29/2017 at 2:55 PM, Lizzybet said:

The Ashley Madison scandal isn't creepy to me, but I do think it means Josh is a jerk. 

I agree. If it was any other regular person the public would just shake their head and move on but this is Josh Duggar that proclaimed his holier than thou status so he gets more flack. And yes he is a jerk, even if he never got caught.

[Georgiana]

I think the courtship model, because it discourages TRULY knowing your partner, unintentionally encourages  young, impressionable kids to fill in the blanks with what they HOPE for in a partner.  

I think Josh was in love with who he thought Anna was, Anna was in love with who she thought Josh was, Jill with her construction of Derrick, Derrick with his fairytale Jill.  The problem is, the real person they married WASN'T the person they made up and fell in love with.  And once things get tough and they start to realize who they really married, they realize they aren't as in love with them as they thought. Or maybe at all. It's a Gatsby/Daisy situation. 

 

[onekidanddone]

1 hour ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I was actually a well behaved child (with a three mostly minor ER visits). However, when I was around two or three, my dad had been in the hospital with my mom for some reason- I can't recall the exact reason now- and my grandma had been watching us. Some doctor went into my mom's room, pulled my dad out in the hall, and told him his toddler daughter was on the way to the ER because of an apparent drug overdose after getting into a pill bottle of my grandma's. He didn't tell my mom, but went down to the ER where the ambulances come in, expecting to see a barely living toddler arrive. Well, the doors open, and there I was giggling and laughing and reaching for my dad. My grandma didn't let me go, which from what I hear was the loudest he ever yelled at her. They gave me the vomiting stuff and I don't think really found much. My dad thinks my grandma miscounted her pills and thought I took some when maybe I didn't.

Other hospital visits? Eating half of my brother's baseball card when I was teething. Accidentally belly flopping off a jungle gym during tag in after school care, resulting in some bruised ribs (and half of the wood chips from the playground all throughout the hospital  )

My kid had three other ER visits 

• Bad mommy closed the car window on her fingers. My excuse was that
  • it was a rental;
  • I didn't know how to lock the back windows;
  • I was driving out of state
  • I was lost
• Got her finger caught in a door in aftercare.  
• Just a few weeks ago when she had her "anaphylactic event" at school.

[Special friend]

On 3.4.2017 at 7:04 PM, shiverful said:

In most cases I believe that all people over a certain age are responsible for their own actions but in the case of Josh I am not so sure. 

Not only was he raised very strict (lots of people are, including myself), but he was also completely isolated in the sense that he as a young boy never had the opportunity to get himself educated about sex, sexual urges or how to control or relieve them in a safe way. Unlike most people he never had any formal education on the subject, everything his parents told him were bullshit and he did not have free access to the Internet or a class mate to ask or talk to.

[Snipped]

I think this is a very, very important aspect. Josh did not go to any sort of school. At home, there was probably constant chaos. 

The Duggars very likely did not plan to give *any* information about bodies, body changes or sex to their children. (Other than sex is great after marriage, before that, suppress all sinful urges and curiosity.)

And remember: Josh was actually *betrothed* at 14 years old. That is waaayyy to young and would mess with any child's head. (Not that it excuses molestation, though.)

Being betrothed, he he was probably wondering about what he was supposed to be doing relatively soon (sex). At the very least he was probably wondering what girls look like. How they are different from boys. As many posters have  said, this is very natural.

In this crappy environment, he had no way to find out. (Boys are not even allowed to change little girls' diapers.) No biology books, no internet, no magazines, no class mates, no older friends. So he might have tried to find out on his own. Terrible decision, of course.

TLDR:

I think a lot of factors might have contributed to this terrible situation. Not the least of which was that he was to be married soonish (at 14!) and had no idea about sex or female anatomy and no legitimate way to find out about these.

[Bad Wolf]

@Special friend there's flaw in that he was just curious. He continued after he was caught/confessed.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

8 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

My Kid got staples.  Friend's kid stitches.  Apparently head wounds bleed like hell even if they are not that serious.

Boy, do they! My big kid got a teeny tiny cut on her forehead when she was a preschooler. It was maybe a centimeter long. She bled like crazy and understandably got a bit freaked out. A gentle wash, a band-aid, and a dose of Tylenol for her headache were all the treatment she needed. (Then I got to wash the blood out of our clothes. Good thing we were both wearing dark colored shirts.) 

Best wishes for no emergencies in your future!

[RosyDaisy]

One victim was only 5. There is no theory in which that is just curiosity.