Anna, Josh, and the M-Kids, Part 10: Genes and Bedsheets

[PainfullyAware]

I feel uncomfortable attributing too much of Josh's actions to sexual repression, although I understand it's more about an unhealthy environment rather than any kind of absolution. I had a psychology Prof in university talk about a case study where a teenage boy lost the use of his arm for no medically apparent reason. After he was referred to a psychiatrist as a last resort he explained it was a punishment from God for masturbating - he came from a fundie family. This was all to illustrate the power of the mind. Since Josh was raised similarly, it's definitely plausible the kind of deep shame caused by fundamentalism led to abnormal behavior. 

But instead of psychosomatic effects like this example or other form of taking shame out on himself (substance abuse, self harm, panic attacks), he chose to victimize girls younger than him over whom he had both age and gender privilege. So it's hard not to see the kind of behavior he tended towards as a good indicator about his personality. In other words, he has a predisposition towards abnormal sexual behavior separate and apart from the cult. The cult created an environment where he had no tools to cope with it and his parents prevented him from being properly treated or giving his victims appropriate justice. 

As an adult I don't believe he is at all interested in kids (most juvenile offenders aren't adult offenders, from what I understand). But he obviously engaged in destructive, even addictive sexual behavior as an adult (his statement said he was addicted to porn). But more shaming in Jesus jail without any tools means he will probably continue some other variation of this behavior at some later point.

[FundamentallyShocked]

On 4/4/2017 at 6:33 AM, Snarkle Motion said:

I mean, you don't know what went on in that house given that the family so readily covers up abuse. 

I'm just saying that I doubt that the child Josh was born an evil molester without any other abuse happening in the family. I have suspicions about someone from their cult abusing Josh. Keep in mind that when someone  that age is acting out sexually on peers/young children it is one of the tell tale signs of sexual abuse. Given how rampant it is in this cult and how stigmatizing it would be for him to admit having experienced it, I'm not surprised that he said nothing publicly. I'm sure that his parents if they knew did nothing for him except blame him and tell him to accept Jesus.

This has long been my suspicion about Josh and, for this reason, I have a soft(ish) spot for this ill-parented, brainwashed child. What he did was terribly wrong. There is no excuse for his actions. But such insular environments are ripe for all kinds of physical and sexual abuse.

[Smash!]

What means bethrothen?

[VineHeart137]

30 minutes ago, Smash! said:

What means bethrothen?

Betrothed is basically another way of saying engaged to be married.

[Howl]

4 hours ago, FundamentallyShocked said:

I'm just saying that I doubt that the child Josh was born an evil molester without any other abuse happening in the family. I have suspicions about someone from their cult abusing Josh.

Well, Jim Bob's state trooper go-to friend, who he consulted about Josh's molestations, is a convicted pedophile....this article is from the UK's Daily Mail, but seems to be detailed enough to be credible. Revealed: The sickening pedophile crimes of the Duggars' state trooper friend who failed to properly investigate eldest son Josh for his molestation of young girls

[Letgo]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:36 AM, RosyDaisy said:

1) Josh had a girlfriend
2) They had lots of large families visit and vice versa
3) They attended a lot conferences
4) One victim was only 5
5) One or more victims were non-family

Given those things, the theory that Josh didn't like the idea of incest doesn't make sense. Well, their fucked up sense that is.

Josh may have had a girlfriend or been betrothed to a girl, but I'd bet he really didn't know her well. He would not be allowed to kiss her, hold hands, or touch her in any way. Remember when Jessa or Jill held hands with their guy during a prayer and it was a big deal because they weren't engaged yet? So I'm sure Josh didn't have any more freedom than his sisters during his courtship. He wasn't ever alone with the girl, couldn't go on an actual date, just the two of them, and had chaperones at all times. If they texted back then all texts also went to the parents.

The Duggars are friends with other large families and attend conferences, but these are with families all together-no pairing off of kids. They don't even like age separation, do they? The teenagers can't hang out in a group by themselves. The older kids always seem to have younger kids with them so their parents can "fellowship" with other parents. Once again, there is no real chance to be alone with a girl, and if kids try they run a huge risk of being caught and punished and humiliated.

I think Josh chose the most accessible victims who would be least likely to tell. His sisters might be more likely to keep quiet because it's their brother and they love him. They know what kind of punishment Josh would endure and they still love him, in spite of his actions. At least that could be what he was hoping. Also, his victims were sleeping so he could have had plausible deniability. "I was just pulling up her covers." "She was having a nightmare." "I thought I heard someone crying so I came into the girls' room to check."

I don't think doing this at age 14 necessarily makes him a pedophile, or that he liked the idea of incest. This was a crime of opportunity for a messed up adolescent. He had reasonable, explainable access to his sisters. They trusted him. They were female. Josh didn't have time or opportunity to "groom" another child or teen who wasn't related. He simply took advantage of the non-family victim because she was asleep. She was just an opportunity for Josh and he took it because it probably wasn't available too often. 

I feel bad for Josh, and worse for Anna and the children. They are all victims of their messed up views. I so wish Josh had gotten real help for his problems, not guilt. I doubt his issues are gone, they are just repressed for who knows how long.

[RosyDaisy]

You cannot convince me Josh didn't have opportunities to be with other girls. That's too many for parents to keep tabs on. Also, what about the 5 year old? That's not curiosity. Josh's fucked up upbringing didn't cause this. Josh did. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

[Scribber]

You cannot convince me Josh didn't have opportunities to be with other girls. That's too many for parents to keep tabs on. Also, what about the 5 year old? That's not curiosity. Josh's fucked up upbringing didn't cause this. Josh did. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

 

A few Fundie families who I know that are so tightly circled that I have no trouble believing that Josh would only have had "access" to siblings.

 

One particular family? The littles can only socialize with immediate family and cousins. At church services? They sit with family, instead of going to Sunday school. They don't socialize with the other children. They don't go outside of the family until the kids are at the equivalent of 3 or 4 grade, so they can be properly trained to keep an eye out for potential evils.

 

One of my coworkers (part of this large fundie family) has a daughter the same age as my little. I invited them to a birthday party last year, and he explained this to me.

 

Now? I am not justifying what he did or denying that he is seriously messed up. Just stating that it is possible. These cults are deeply steeped in the Kool-Aid and self segregate heavily.

 

[KelseyAnn]

As someone who was victimized by a family member, my problem with Josh is that he didn't STOP after getting caught and confessing the first goddamn time. Obviously, he didn't feel too guilty if he went back and did it again. 

And maybe I'm biased, but I think justifying Josh's actions is equivalent to something like, "Well, we know he only hit his wife once but didn't do it again. Besides, his childhood was bad- so can we really blame him?" 

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

And maybe I'm biased, but I think justifying Josh's actions is equivalent to something like, "Well, we know he only hit his wife once but didn't do it again. Besides, his childhood was bad- so can we really blame him?" 

No, I don't feel that it's anywhere near similar. I don't think anyone is saying that Josh's actions weren't horrible, it's just a part of wondering. If Josh was raised in a normal household, would he have committed these crimes? Judging by the fact that he prefers adult women and consensual sex now, the answer is likely not. So my opinion is that Josh committed these actions but the cult that he grew up in has a fair amount of blame. Josh does too, he didn't have to do it. I will cut him some sack seeing that his mother and father were following the sexual abuser Bill Gothard. 

Josh is a pig, a child molester, and an adulterer. The fact that the molestation isn't what would make people in his cult dislike him, is the issue. They would turn their back on him for the adultery. See Tim Robinson, the blame usually falls strictly on the victim. Michelle and Jim Bob did nothing to help the victims, they locked them in their rooms and continued to let Josh live in the house with them. So Josh is to blame because he did it, Michelle and Jim Bob are to blame because they were too busy fucking for Jesus to notice what was going on, and the cult is to blame because they make it seem like these things are normal. 

So I think it's more of an equal opportunity, IBLP/ATI fucking suck more than Josh is not so bad. 

[BobTheWalrus]

On 09/04/2017 at 2:08 AM, jqlgoblue said:

While I agree, I think there is more to it with Josh. IMO JB is hyper-sexed and a narcissist, I'd say the apple didn't fall far from the tree with Josh. I don't think you do what Josh did out of curiosity, I'm sure there are sneaky things that happen even at fundie homeschooling conferences that he could have learned from if he really wanted to. I think he knew better, even / especially in their brand of Christianity. His behavior in his marriage is another data point. A different person would have acted with more discretion and if/when caught there would have been no public outing b/c there wouldn't have been Ashley Madison accounts.

I do think he thought marrying Anna would solve his problems. He probably doesn't know what love is. There is infatuation, and first couple years of romantic love that is exciting b/c things are uncertain, but quite a few people can't form the emotional connections necessary for long lasting love ... things like narcissism (which is rooted in shame) and depression can play roles in that too.

I agree, and something has just crystallised in my thinking. The Duggars grow up learning that sex outside of marriage is wrong. So they would definitely believe that all kinds of sexual contact, of any type, with any person, is wrong. So I don't believe that curiosity explains what he did. It might explain staring inappropriately if he saw one of his female relatives coming out of the bathroom after a shower, or if he accidentally walked in on one of them. I don't think it explains repeated incidents where he deliberately sought out this kind of contact. It's not natural, even in their world, to act that way. He seemed arrogant and brash enough to try and force something with a girl at Big Sandy or out behind the church or something like that, if curiosity about touching a girl was what was driving him.

I think he didn't really understand what a problem he had, and/or he felt that marriage would solve any problems he did have. And when it didn't, he felt unable to cope or communicate about it, so he ended up in a lot more trouble.

[Four is Enough]

37 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

. If Josh was raised in a normal household, would he have committed these crimes? Judging by the fact that he prefers adult women and consensual sex now, the answer is likely not. So my opinion is that Josh committed these actions but the cult that he grew up in has a fair amount of blame. Josh does too, he didn't have to do it. I will cut him some sack seeing that his mother and father were following the sexual abuser Bill Gothard.  

I can answer that question with my own experience. My son WAS raised in a "normal" household, and at a similar age to Josh, molested younger neighborhood children. So It Can Happen, even when your son has been to school, had "girlfriends", even been caught under the deck kissing a girl his own age..and has been nowhere near GotHard's teachings.

Yes, he was caught and treated with a helluva lot more treatment than construction work and prayer.

[Smash!]

@Four is Enough: Kudos for talking so openly about your son! I hope he's well now.

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I can answer that question with my own experience. My son WAS raised in a "normal" household, and at a similar age to Josh, molested younger neighborhood children. So It Can Happen, even when your son has been to school, had "girlfriends", even been caught under the deck kissing a girl his own age..and has been nowhere near GotHard's teachings.

Yes, he was caught and treated with a helluva lot more treatment than construction work and prayer.

This is parenting done right. Your kid does something wrong? You correct them and punish them. They do something wrong that's also a criminal offense? You turn their ass in so the victim(s) get justice and your child is (hopefully) given the help they need. You don't cover it all up and blame the victims - doing that isn't an act of love, it's an act of desperation to save face.

I wish JimBob, Michelle, and any other adults involved could legally be held responsible for the coverup. Almost as badly as I wish Josh could be charged criminally for his crimes. Because their failure to protect the victims and get them justice was also a failure to get Josh the legitimate help he clearly needed - first in teaching him to take some goddamn responsibility, secondly in teaching him actions have consequences (like jail), and finally in professional counseling.

Tl;dr - Josh ultimately bears the most blame because he damn well knew better, but there is more than enough blame to go around. Only ones here with clean hands are the victims, who were so completely failed in so many ways.

[eveandadam]

On 14.4.2017 at 8:41 PM, Howl said:

Well, Jim Bob's state trooper go-to friend, who he consulted about Josh's molestations, is a convicted pedophile....this article is from the UK's Daily Mail, but seems to be detailed enough to be credible. Revealed: The sickening pedophile crimes of the Duggars' state trooper friend who failed to properly investigate eldest son Josh for his molestation of young girls

That was my line of thinking , too. This guy and Gothard have/used to have endless access to children and young people and hold a lot of power. I would not be surprised at all if not only Josh was abused as a child but also other Duggar children, although I hope nothing ever happened to them besides the already confirmed Josh incidents. But in their environment it's unfortunately very possible to be abused as a child :-(

[Four is Enough]

6 hours ago, Smash! said:

@Four is Enough: Kudos for talking so openly about your son! I hope he's well now.

They won't ever say, at the end of treatment, that someone is "well" or "cured", but they did say that they consider him at very low risk to reoffend, which is about the best they will say about this type of situation.

I wish Josh had the chance to have the kind of treatment that was available, through the state, for my child. Whether he would have gained the type of insight it can garner is unknown, but I wish he'd have had the chance to have it.

@VelociRapture said: I wish JimBob, Michelle, and any other adults involved could legally be held responsible for the coverup. Almost as badly as I wish Josh could be charged criminally for his crimes. Because their failure to protect the victims and get them justice was also a failure to get Josh the legitimate help he clearly needed - first in teaching him to take some goddamn responsibility, secondly in teaching him actions have consequences (like jail), and finally in professional counseling.

So much this. Parents are held accountable when their kids don't go to school, but are allowed to skate on something like this?

[RosyDaisy]

As someone who was victimized by a family member, my problem with Josh is that he didn't STOP after getting caught and confessing the first goddamn time. Obviously, he didn't feel too guilty if he went back and did it again. 
And maybe I'm biased, but I think justifying Josh's actions is equivalent to something like, "Well, we know he only hit his wife once but didn't do it again. Besides, his childhood was bad- so can we really blame him?" 

This! He didn't stop after the first time, and one victim was only 5. I find incredibly apalling that people are trying to paint Josh as a victim.

[singsingsing]

Josh was a victim. It's entirely possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator, and being a victim doesn't absolve you of your own crimes. It does no good, and in fact does a lot of harm, to ignore the fact that perpetrators often start out as victims. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

Absolutely, Josh was a victim, and until he leaves TTH, he will continue to be. It's important to know the what, when, where, and why, of how a perpetrator develops so it can be prevented in the future. I don't feel like anybody is excusing his behavior. They're just acknowledging how the problems were created. Josh being a victim doesn't excuse him from being accountable. He absolutely should be accountable, but his behavior didn't shoot right out of the clear blue sky like bad luck out of nowhere, so it's important to acknowledge where it did stem from. #DontBlameSatan #UnlessBySatanYouMeanBillGothard #ItWasJimBobAndMichelle

In dysfunctional families, there are generally four roles the kids fall into. The scapegoat that either gets blamed for problems and/or acts out the unacknowledged problems  (clearly Josh, to a lesser extent used to be Jessa who bullied her sisters, or even cousin Amy for idk what, maybe wearing shorts?), one that is the hero and reflects the family ideal (Jessa, now that she is married to a devout Catholic-hater and is rapidly breeding, maybe Joe now that he's marrying into Camp Pray Away the Gay, used to be Jill, but that may be changing thanks to her husband, Grifter McGrifterson from Grifterville Dillard), one that emotionally shuts down and appears content but avoids intimacy (Jana, John David) and one that diffuses tension with humor (Jinger, maybe Joy and maybe Josiah).

With more than four kids, these can repeat, and also kids can move between two or more roles depending how things change in the family. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

Josh was a victim. It's entirely possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator, and being a victim doesn't absolve you of your own crimes. It does no good, and in fact does a lot of harm, to ignore the fact that perpetrators often start out as victims. 

It's also possible to understand that you can split blame between different parties without lessening the crimes of one. I honestly see no issue with assigning the majority of blame to Josh, while also attributing additional blame to the adults involved - for the coverup, for not protecting the victims, for their absolute failure to get any of the minors involved adequate counseling, etc. They all did horrific things in this situation and they should all be held accountable for it. Because while Josh has no excuse for what he did neither do those adults. They are all responsible for their actions.

[Million Children For Jesus]

9 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

It's also possible to understand that you can split blame between different parties without lessening the crimes of one. I honestly see no issue with assigning the majority of blame to Josh, while also attributing additional blame to the adults involved - for the coverup, for not protecting the victims, for their absolute failure to get any of the minors involved adequate counseling, etc. They all did horrific things in this situation and they should all be held accountable for it. Because while Josh has no excuse for what he did neither do those adults. They are all responsible for their actions.

Yes! Not only this, but the thing I find most obviously lacking is that Jim Bob and Michelle didn't acknowledge one iota that their parenting or lifestyle choices influenced Josh's behavior. Zero reflection. Zero accountability. Zero change in perspective. Who does that?

Don't normal people ask what they could have done different after their kids act like crap? Even on the little stuff? Yet absolutely nothing from Jim Bob and Michelle. Pure narcissism. They really don't care if they devastate their children as long as their selfish needs are met. It's really disturbing to me, and I don't have any sympathy for them. They are truly reprehensible people. 

[BackseatMom]

Having worked in child welfare, I have seen so many cases of abused or neglected children acting that abuse out on others. It doesn't make them less accountable, but it does change the kind of treatment they need. It should also make us a bit more compassionate. I hate to see these victimized then perpetrating kids labelled as bad kids and punished (as opposed to treated). Nothing makes a potential adoptive family bounce faster than sexual abuse (that is true for perpetrators and victims, btw). 

I don't know what Josh's situation is, and I don't really care. At this point, his actions as an adult have made it clear that he never got real help, and that he is fundamentally selfish. Put me in club I hate smuggar.

However, I think we need to be careful when we say that because he sexually assaulted minors (while he was a minor), that makes him a monster. The situation could be a good deal more complicated.

[Million Children For Jesus]

1 hour ago, BackseatMom said:

Nothing makes a potential adoptive family bounce faster than sexual abuse (that is true for perpetrators and victims, btw). 

Guilty of this. I wanted to be a foster parent, but never followed through because my kids were too little and I didn't want to potentially put them in danger of kid on kid abuse. Bringing a perpetrator into the house? No way. A victim? Everyone hears about victims flipping and turning into perpetrators, so that's a risk factor, too. Now that my kids are grown, it has been on my mind to look into it again, but now I'm too old and tired! I also don't have the resources I used to have. Sigh. Maybe it's not meant to be. 

[SassyPants]

Highly repressed household with 13*+ kids living in a small rancher AND with hyper sexual parents...and the golden son acts out. It was a recipe for disaster.

[CrazyMumma]

Just to throw this in.. have a read of this...

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/06/24/paul-and-gena-suarez-old-schoolhouse-publishers-accused-of-protecting-known-child-predators/

The idea that Josh may have been abused may not be far from the truth... of course... though we have no way of knowing...