Anna, Josh, and the M-Kids, Part 10: Genes and Bedsheets

[lolo3300]

I work for Child Protective Services and when cases like this come in we work jointly with law enforcement. The judges will always order the perpetrator into offender treatment 6-9 months and the victims are offered therapy which if the parents won't voluntarily take them then we will ask the court to order it. After the perpetrator finishes treatment, his treatment team recommends if he can return home or if the parents have to send him with a family member without children.  So many balls were dropped in this horribleness 

[nickelodeon]

Looking over the original posts where "Alice" blows the whistle, I notice that she mentions the Duggars' tax-free home-church. I thought we'd agreed that was just a false rumor, so I was surprised that "Alice" repeats it:

Quote

It bugs me. I admit it fully. Especially when you throw in their tax-exempt status. (I really do need to start worshiping Mighty Mouse and form my own home-based church so I too, can enjoy this little benefit) It just sickens me

 

[louisa05]

I taught public preschool and kindergarten, and we were never warned against having children sit on our laps or giving hugs. We were told we couldn't wipe their bottoms after they went to the restroom, but I didn't feel that having a child sit in my lap to read a story was in any way in appropriate. In fact there is a literacy movement encouraging parents to give children more "lap time" reading books before kindergarten. 
I agree Josh is a creepy person in general, and I have no doubt he's imposing those creepy views on his own kids I just don't think he should be forbidden from interacting with his own kids I guess.... I think having parental rights severed can do a lot of harm. 
I feel like I almost always edit- I don't think josh is a good guy, I think he's gross and his cult is gross. But I don't think he's abusing his kids and I don't think he shouldn't be allowed to have his kid on his lap. I don't think he's abusing his kids. The Duggars shouldn't have made the stupid "don't put kids on your lap" rule, they should have gotten him fucking help in he first place. For a normal person, having a child on your lap is not sexual in the least. 

I sub in preK regularly and it is acceptable there, too. Withholding normal contact and affection from very young children does not seem appropriate to me. Screen your employees and avoid questionable situations (i.e. Private one on one time) instead

[send*the*ferrets]

4 hours ago, louisa05 said:

 

I sub in preK regularly and it is acceptable there, too. Withholding normal contact and affection from very young children does not seem appropriate to me. Screen your employees and avoid questionable situations (i.e. Private one on one time) instead

 

I feel strongly that withholding appropriate adult/child affection can just make children easier targets for grooming- for gangs, predators, whatever. We know that children crave touch/affection/approval from adults and authority figures. If you tell the adults they are around (and for some children, especially those at risk- teachers are the most stable adults) that you can't give hugs, you can't pat backs, etc- that is leaving them wide open for looking for attention elsewhere. Gangs start recruiting in elementary school. Teachers need to be aware of boundaries but teachers should show kids they care. I'm sad teachers feel they cant give hugs  hug all the kids! 

 

[VixenToast]

On 4/6/2017 at 4:34 AM, RosyDaisy said:

One victim was only 5. There is no theory in which that is just curiosity.

Subterfuge, to be exact. A 5 year old would be the easiest to convince not to say anything.

-from someone who was molested at 5 by at-home daycare lady's 11 year old son... and said nothing.

.

[nastyhobbitses]

On 4/5/2017 at 2:35 PM, Bad Wolf said:

I know the girls' bedroom door was locked after that, but did they ever say how? Locked from the inside = smart. Locked from the outside, stupid. What if there's a fire?

Considering how few shits JB and Michelle have seemed to give about their kids' well-being over the years (laughing and smiling while their young son sustains a spinal injury, doing nothing about their daughters being sexually abused, whoring their children out to reality television from literally the moment they're born, beating infants for natural infant behavior, continuing to have babies while ignoring their children already here, disrupting their medically fragile preemie's treatment and the treatment of other NICU babies to accommodate a film crew, using said medically fragile preemie as a political prop and then pawning her off to her older sister when she's not as easy to control, endorsing the services of incompetent midwives who nearly killed their daughters and grandsons...), I really can't imagine it crossing their minds that locking their children's bedroom doors from the outside could put them in grave danger.

[jqlgoblue]

On 4/5/2017 at 7:14 PM, Georgiana said:

I think the courtship model, because it discourages TRULY knowing your partner, unintentionally encourages  young, impressionable kids to fill in the blanks with what they HOPE for in a partner.  

I think Josh was in love with who he thought Anna was, Anna was in love with who she thought Josh was, Jill with her construction of Derrick, Derrick with his fairytale Jill.  The problem is, the real person they married WASN'T the person they made up and fell in love with.  And once things get tough and they start to realize who they really married, they realize they aren't as in love with them as they thought. Or maybe at all. It's a Gatsby/Daisy situation. 

 

While I agree, I think there is more to it with Josh. IMO JB is hyper-sexed and a narcissist, I'd say the apple didn't fall far from the tree with Josh. I don't think you do what Josh did out of curiosity, I'm sure there are sneaky things that happen even at fundie homeschooling conferences that he could have learned from if he really wanted to. I think he knew better, even / especially in their brand of Christianity. His behavior in his marriage is another data point. A different person would have acted with more discretion and if/when caught there would have been no public outing b/c there wouldn't have been Ashley Madison accounts.

I do think he thought marrying Anna would solve his problems. He probably doesn't know what love is. There is infatuation, and first couple years of romantic love that is exciting b/c things are uncertain, but quite a few people can't form the emotional connections necessary for long lasting love ... things like narcissism (which is rooted in shame) and depression can play roles in that too.

[freejugar]

From TFDW's blog

[Bethella]

4 hours ago, freejugar said:

From TFDW's blog

This is photo is nearly a year old. It was taken when Josh got of Jesus Jail.

[VeganCupcake]

On 4/4/2017 at 7:10 AM, Melissa1977 said:

Has Josh understood his wrong teen behaviour? Feels guilty? We don't really know. But as far as he's not looking for sex with minors or relatives, it's possible he has learned the lesson. Or he just likes sex with adult women, which is good news considering his past.

I don think he ever "liked" the idea specifically of incest. It was just that those were the only girls around. If he wasn't totally isolated, he probably would have either groped classmates on the school playground, or hopefully just experimented CONSENTUALLY with them.  

I cant even imagine the amount of sexual frustration that will build up in a 14 year boy who can't masturbate, dance with a girl, hold hands with a girl, kiss, see girls in movies or magazines (I don't mean porn), and rarely ever even ENCOUNTERS a non-family female! 

Doesn't excuse what he did AT ALL, but clearly those conditions raised the probability of this happening. 

[feministxtian]

Kids...#1 no ER visits at all. #2...only 1 ER visit that I remember. It was Christmas Eve and mom and I had gone out and left my dad to babysit. 1 toddler, 1 grandpa, 1 brick hearth...3 stitches. Oh yeah...he dove off the top bunk at a friend's house when he was 7-8 and had to have his scalp stapled together. #3...CONSTANT ER and Urgent Care visits. By the time he was 3, he'd had stitches 5 times and broken a bone in his foot. There was a bookcase on the living room wall...I walked in the living room and heard a voice from above me...there sat my barely year old non-walking baby. NOTHING was safe. Walked in the kitchen...ALL the outlet cover plates were on the floor with the little screw and there sat 18 month old #3. This was the kid who would walk across the top of the swing set. 

Back on topic...I think JB & M are the ones to blame for Josh. They pretty much would have fully clothed sex in front of the kids and that would lead to a rather twisted view. Doesn't change the fact that Josh is a waste of shitty DNA though...

[Tryamon]

7 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Walked in the kitchen...ALL the outlet cover plates were on the floor with the little screw and there sat 18 month old #3. This was the kid who would walk across the top of the swing set.

When my brother was two, my mom woke up to smell bacon cooking. She was happy that my dad was already making breakfast when she noticed him asleep next to her. She dashed to the kitchen to find my brother very proud of himself. 

He's the oldest and I'm rather surprised that they continued on. 

They ate the bacon. 

[feministxtian]

I've often told my youngest that if he'd been the first one, he'd have been the last one too. 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

8 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

I don think he ever "liked" the idea specifically of incest. It was just that those were the only girls around. If he wasn't totally isolated, he probably would have either groped classmates on the school playground, or hopefully just experimented CONSENTUALLY with them.  

I cant even imagine the amount of sexual frustration that will build up in a 14 year boy who can't masturbate, dance with a girl, hold hands with a girl, kiss, see girls in movies or magazines (I don't mean porn), and rarely ever even ENCOUNTERS a non-family female! 

Doesn't excuse what he did AT ALL, but clearly those conditions raised the probability of this happening. 

I suspect this as well. He's a shit brother and it's no surprise the rest of the kids only seem to begrudgingly tolerate him because the headship has demanded they do so, but I think the problem was that his sisters were the only girls he could talk to without parental supervision and the fact he had no other healthy way to deal with his developmentally normal sexual curiosity. 

I hope people understand what I am saying here when I say that while there is 0 excuse for sexual assault and non consensual sexual activity, I can see how Joshley's upbringing led to him down that path. He is responsible for his actions, but his parents and the stupid cult they subscribe to have a lot to answer for as well. 

Joshley hit puberty and was allowed no healthy or age appropriate ways to explore his perfectly normal attraction to women. Like you say, I can't imagine amount of sexual frustration that would build up in a teenager who can't masturbate, can't talk to a female not his sister without parental permission and supervision, and can't even look through the Victoria's Secret catalogue or walk part the store without his sisters saying 'Nike' so he doesn't look up and see some boobs in a bra on a window poster. 

I don't in any way condone how he channelled this sexual frustration, but I can understand why it happened. It was like a pressure cooker that exploded in the worst possible way. It's what happens when you can't spend 15 minutes in the shower and rub one out or even look at a picture of a woman in a bikini. I mean, I'm not saying that objectifying 'hot girls' is  a great thing, but it's a pretty normal thing for a guy to look at a picture of a model in a bikini and like what he sees. Mr LBE is a decent guy AND a fan of the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show. 

But anyway, basically, this cult once again caused more harm than good because once again, it gave the normal 'lustful urges' of adolescence the 'lalalalala I can't hear you' treatment, which isn't going to work with teenage boys. After too much 'lalalalala', I think Joshley snapped. 

[nastyhobbitses]

17 hours ago, freejugar said:

From TFDW's blog

I know it's an older photo, but it makes me so sad to see that Mackynzie's smile already looks strained and doesn't reach her eyes.

[Carm_88]

5 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I know it's an older photo, but it makes me so sad to see that Mackynzie's smile already looks strained and doesn't reach her eyes.

At some point all of these kids will know what their father did. That breaks my heart. 

[RosyDaisy]

1) Josh had a girlfriend
2) They had lots of large families visit and vice versa
3) They attended a lot conferences
4) One victim was only 5
5) One or more victims were non-family

Given those things, the theory that Josh didn't like the idea of incest doesn't make sense. Well, their fucked up sense that is.

[singsingsing]

28 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

1) Josh had a girlfriend
2) They had lots of large families visit and vice versa
3) They attended a lot conferences
4) One victim was only 5
5) One or more victims were non-family

Given those things, the theory that Josh didn't like the idea of incest doesn't make sense. Well, their fucked up sense that is.

1) I'm sure Josh was never alone with his "girlfriend".

2) I'm sure Josh was never alone with female family visitors.

3) I'm sure Josh was never alone with any girls or women at any of the conferences they attended.

4) The victim being 5 is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he specifically enjoyed incest.

5) This refutes rather than confirms that theory that Josh was specifically interested in incest. It seems that he targeted the one non-family female he was ever able to find alone. That to me suggests that he was committing crimes of opportunity, rather than targeting family members because they were family members, if it suggests anything.

[Hmmm_idolatry]

My take on Josh is that his issues are a combination of nature and nurture.  That type of issue in that type of situation is like the perfect storm.  To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more victims, or even friends who are always hanging around who have the tendency toward similar issues.  The fundy world, with all of its dysfunction, rigid rules, and male privilege seems like a breeding ground for this type of deviance.  While I am sure that the vast majority of fundy males aren't child molesters, I am sure that the fundy world is a place where that type of behavior will be explained away (Satan, those whorish females, etc, etc) and blamed on the victim, thus creating a cycle. 

[RosyDaisy]

1) Josh had a girlfriend
2) They had lots of large families visit and vice versa
3) They attended a lot conferences
4) One victim was only 5
5) One or more victims were non-family

Given those things, the theory that Josh didn't like the idea of incest doesn't make sense. Well, their fucked up sense that is.

Quoting myself to correct myself. I meant does instead of doesn't. That's what I get for too much multitasking.

[actuallyjessica]

So has anyone found any info to narrow Anna's due date down? Or is it still "later this year"?

[unicorncastle]

I think this is a very, very important aspect.
And remember: Josh was actually *betrothed* at 14 years old. That is waaayyy to young and would mess with any child's head. (Not that it excuses molestation, though.)

Can you elaborate on this? This is the first time I've heard that. That is crazy!

[marmalade]

It is unverified by the families in question, but it's been a longstanding rumor that Smugs was betrothed to Jim Holt's oldest, Kayleigh, when they were 14 or 15. Or, IOW, right around the time he got busted for molesting his sisters. 

Didn't Josh have to confess his sins to the church? If so, why would Holt, attending the same church, allow for such an arrangement? 

[singsingsing]

They were betrothed before the molestations were admitted to, apparently. There is a line in the police report which seems to allude to it. According to another rumour, the betrothal was broken, then they were 're-betrothed', I think after Josh was done his manual labour punishment, and then it was broken again for good. The second time possibly had something to do with the 'sin in the camp' incident, which I've heard involved Josh looking at porn or something of that nature during Holt's political campaign.

[marmalade]

Right. He was 16 at that point (2004 campaign).