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Anna, Josh, and the M-Kids, Part 10: Genes and Bedsheets


choralcrusader8613

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Love the discussions on folklore. I grew up in northern Sweden with a very superstitious mom so I know what "one of those" means. Some people are believed to have power over certain things like fire or blood. I am always hard to draw blood from and my mom was convinced I was a blood stopper. She wanted me to try to stop her blood when she had a cut to see but I have always refused. I don't believe in it and refused to humor her. 

My mom claimed to have seen a tomte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisse_(folklore) in the forest as a kid and believed in vättar (ground spirits) and "the underworld" where they live. They are usually only referred to as "them" if you think they are close to you as they don't like you talking about them so they hear you. I don't believe in this but I had to follow the not talking rule or my mom would be crossed. 

She believed that there were ghosts and spirits and that the dead could visit but in a more friendly way or send an animal as a blessing or greeting. 

She believed in tons of other stuff I don't believe in but I like retelling her stories and will probably share some of this with my kids but as a story, not reality like she did. 

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On March 29, 2017 at 1:42 PM, ActualReality said:

WOW!  That's some extra strength crazy!!!!!!

Yep. She's having a boy. The last thread had some name and due date guesses. Looks like Matthew is the front runner, with an August or September due date. I guessed Miles, Max, or Malakai, in May. I thought she looked pregnant at Jinger's wedding, but she looks less pregnant at the Ark, so my guess looks weak.

If I were Anna's mom, I wonder what advice I would give her. I don't mean what advice would Ma Keller give, because that must be some real garbage advice, but what would I say to her as my own daughter? Or, what if Josh were your kid? Geez. That would suck. I don't know what I would tell him/them. Besides the obvious... take a breather from having kids. Maybe even stop altogether.  

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I would suggest putting her kids in ebil public school, but with all the notoriety surrounding Josh, that might not be a good idea. It might prevent a laundry room breakdown.

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I doubt Josh will be seen on the show, but the Duggars may be reintroducing him because of Anna's pregnancy.  If she's seen on the show, and is referencing Josh, then this way people know he's still around and (more or less) accepted by the family.

I see Josh more and more as his father's son.  They're both risk-takers and don't mind doing things that others might find offensive.  Jim Bob hooked up with Gothard, spent a fortune running for office while his wife and children were living in small quarters and eating rice three ways, and covered up for his molesting son while putting restrictions on his daughters.  And that's what we know about.  Josh had the constraints of his Gothard upbringing, but I think those same constraints contributed to him acting out in ways that are so unacceptable.  I'm not going to speculate on what might, or might not, be inherently wrong with Josh but I do believe things would have turned out better for him if had been able to, say, date and marry a cheerleader.

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@Dandruff-you raise really good points.  I remember in the first episode of Counting On, Anna made some comment like "If I acted on my feelings it would be a disaster."  That's one of the saddest things I've ever heard.  This attitude probably comes straight from some bullshit Gothard teaching designed to oppress women even further.  Keeping in the pain and anger is probably the worst thing a person could do.  It's not psychologically healthy at all, and at some point, the person is likely to snap and have a complete breakdown.  It makes me wonder if, while Anna was living with the Duggars right after this happened, Michelle and JB "counseled" her to handle the situation this way.

If it's true that she continued on this way, holding it all in, it's not good.  And as any rational human being knows, adding yet another baby into the mix makes this even worse.  

Counting On is one of the most boring shows I've ever seen.  Anna's storyline and kids were literally the only thing that made it interesting. I'm conflicted because while Josh does not deserve anything but karma, it is interesting to see what is going on with their family.  I suspect that this is what TLC thinks too, and the family is probably testing out the waters to gauge public reaction in order to decide whether or not to feature them in the future.

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I hope this doesn't come off as sweeping any of Josh's behavior under the rug, but I see what Josh did (speaking about the 'inappropriate fondeling') only marginally worse than what his parents did. I'm in the camp that, while not at all excusing what Josh did by any means, he is a victim of Gothardism and his upbringing. He needed to have taken more responsibility for that, but so did JB&M. They failed Josh by forcing him to live within the confines of an unhealthy lifestyle and cult, and also greatly failed their daughters by not getting them them the help they both needed and deserved. They failed all their other children by continuing to raise them in such a rigid lifestyle that gives them little opportunity to truly live and succeed as people should and deserve to. I personally don't see him being on screen all that much worse than seeing JB&M on screen.

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Excuse me? Molestation is only marginally worse? OH HAIL NAW! This is the kind of shit leghumpers say. Your not just sweeping it under the rug, you are minimizing it.

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@front hugs > duggs, @RosyDaisy,

 I think Josh had premature exposure to inappropriate sexuality if his parents dry humped etc. in front of him as a child or young teen. They had no problem letting it be filmed, so  who knows what they felt was okay to do in front of their kids in the home.   

In my opinion, Josh was raised in a toxic stew of constant sexual suggestion as expressed by his parents  along with constant preaching on purity and sexual sins.  

Also, in their weird version of religion, all things are equally sinful- free thoughts, porn, not keeping sweet,  etc., so how does a child know what is really right or wrong?

Josh must be held responsible for his actions, which are repulsive.  However, I believe that he asked for help when he confessed to his parents which was not given.  

JimBob and Michelle were the adults, the parents of a troubled 15 year old boy.  They failed him, they failed the girls by their non actions, so  I think they are much more to blame for the further incidents of incestuous contact.  

And isn't the reason that Josh was put in to a pray-hab camp was because of the Ashley Madison accounts, not because of the incestous conduct?   JimBob and Michelle still don't think they did anything wrong in their response when the girls were assaulted.

JimBob and Michelle should have been banned from anything on screen as well as Josh.

 

 

 

 

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@RosyDaisy I'm truly sorry it came out that way, I was trying to be careful with my words but I guess I did a bad job. 

I certainly am not a leghumper and see molestation as a HUGE deal! But JB&M knew about it, and it happened several times after they found out by the sounds of it. Their lack of action led to it happening more times and possibly more people.  

Yes, Josh was 15 and knew right from wrong and of course that was very very VERY wrong. I am no way defending him. Just to be clear IT WAS SOOOOOOOO WRONG. I just think JB&M were also very very wrong for not doing anything about it and should be held accountable as well. 

ETA: thank you @Lurker you said what I had meant better. I certainly was not saying what he did was no big deal and I wasn't saying I want to see Josh on screen. More that I personally think JB&M should also be scrapped from screen time. 

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3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Josh must be held responsible for his actions, which are repulsive.  However, I believe that he asked for help when he confessed to his parents which was not given.

I agree with most of what you said, but I think it's very unlikely he really confessed without first being caught. I know that's what they said, but they're liars so I don't believe them.

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8 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Excuse me? Molestation is only marginally worse? OH HAIL NAW! This is the kind of shit leghumpers say. Your not just sweeping it under the rug, you are minimizing it.

As parents they enabled Josh by letting him basically get away with it. Then he moved on to the very young victim! He should have been removed/sent for REAL treatment immediately. 

To me, the parents REFUSING to protect their little girls from the abuser is equally as monstrous as what Josh did because they were complicit. 

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I think that you can hold the two thoughts that Josh is an utter scumbag and a sexual predator and that his parents are abusive assholes who are partially responsible for/complicit in his crimes. Maybe with the best, most supportive, progressive parents in the world he'd have turned out the same, but having two sex-obsessed, narcissistic parents who have never given a shit about their children's well-being certainly didn't help him choose a path of righteousness. JB and Michelle need to own up to the fact that they have failed as parents. They need to acknowledge that their abusive, neglectful parenting practices and beliefs created, aided, and abetted a monster. And Josh needs to suffer actual consequences for his behavior.

Neither of those things will happen, and I'm sure there's more horrors to be revealed in Duggarville.

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The part that scares me is if they are so open about things that horrify us, like little girls defrauding men, sister-moms, etc. what are the things they are desperate to hide? There has to be more than Josh molesting girls.

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On March 28, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Hmmm_idolatry said:

It's so disturbing to me that people are happy to see him back.  What he did is absolutely vile, and he didn't receive actual counseling.  And to see him holding Meredith on his lap just creeps me out to no end.  I know that he's their son/husband/brother and they obviously have no problem with him, but seeing so many positive comments is really obnoxious.  

It is disturbing, but it doesn't really surprise me because he is a man in this cult. Reframe it with one of the women. If Jessa had molested 5 boys as a teen then spent her spare time hiding her love of pornography and extramarital affairs she might get the same lip service of "She is recovered and forgiven" but no one would ever be glad to see her back and she would always be shamed amongst her Gothard peers.

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4 hours ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

The part that scares me is if they are so open about things that horrify us, like little girls defrauding men, sister-moms, etc. what are the things they are desperate to hide? There has to be more than Josh molesting girls.

Only time will tell. I totally agree with this but it's hard for me personally to think of an act more horrible than child abuse. Murder but I can't see JB getting away with the that.

If you read the fundie memoir I Fired God her father beat her and her siblings while she was naked. It was disgusting to read. I don't think it's a stretch to say maybe stuff of that caliber is hidden. 

I'm not trying to say that the abuse that we know about is any less awful. It's a shame nobody had to answer for that. 

Maybe they'll get JB on tax evasion. :(

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16 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Excuse me? Molestation is only marginally worse? OH HAIL NAW! This is the kind of shit leghumpers say. Your not just sweeping it under the rug, you are minimizing it.

Not so, remember Josh was a child, and raised in sexually repressed and perverted home (perverted in that sex is sinful and disgusting and all thoughts of it prior to marriage are sinful and disgusting)  Honestly I find what his parents did to be worse, because they didn't punish him or tell him it was wrong, they punished the girls, saying it was their fault and changed how they allowed the boys and girls to interact. That didn't help or solve the problem it just pushed it aside for a time. Josh was 14 & 15 and really didn't know what was right or wrong because he wasn't told, only that "sex was sin".  As for the Ashley Madison stuff that is all on him, but a bit is from his fucked up childhood and never being punished for wrong doings. he has all the makings of a sexual predictor  of the Trump style, he's a danger to women everywhere, but I don't think his daughters are in danger from him that way, just his shitty brand of Christianity.  

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17 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I hope this doesn't come off as sweeping any of Josh's behavior under the rug, but I see what Josh did (speaking about the 'inappropriate fondeling') only marginally worse than what his parents did. I'm in the camp that, while not at all excusing what Josh did by any means, he is a victim of Gothardism and his upbringing. He needed to have taken more responsibility for that, but so did JB&M. They failed Josh by forcing him to live within the confines of an unhealthy lifestyle and cult, and also greatly failed their daughters by not getting them them the help they both needed and deserved. They failed all their other children by continuing to raise them in such a rigid lifestyle that gives them little opportunity to truly live and succeed as people should and deserve to. I personally don't see him being on screen all that much worse than seeing JB&M on screen.

In most cases I believe that all people over a certain age are responsible for their own actions but in the case of Josh I am not so sure. 

Not only was he raised very strict (lots of people are, including myself), but he was also completely isolated in the sense that he as a young boy never had the opportunity to get himself educated about sex, sexual urges or how to control or relieve them in a safe way. Unlike most people he never had any formal education on the subject, everything his parents told him were bullshit and he did not have free access to the Internet or a class mate to ask or talk to. 

Josh was raised in a world where kissing before marriage is a sin. He did not necessarily learn do differentiate between that and incest. He's also never learned about how important consent is in any sexual act. His parents, after all, believe in wives being available to husbands at all times. 

I do think that he did know that what he was doing was wrong, but I don't think that he knew how wrong, having nothing to compare it with. 

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@shiverful  I think you made a very important point about consent.  In a culture that promotes always joyfully available, there is no recognition of women's body autonomy.   His only adult female figure, Michelle did not have authority over her own body to say no, ever.

 

 

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On 3/28/2017 at 7:36 PM, Hmmm_idolatry said:

This sounds like Iceland.  In Iceland, they believe in gnomes. In fact, they have such a belief in gnomes that if they feel a gnome is living in a particular tree, they'll make little gnome houses for it.  There is a road in Iceland that goes around a hill. It was supposed to go through the hill, but their machinery kept breaking mysteriously when they were building it.  They decided that it was due to gnomes or elves living there.  They changed the course of the road out of respect for the gnomes. 

I LOVED that story when I heard it in Iceland. Apparently they'll never build a house for humans if they feel the gnomes live in that spot. Iceland itself is pretty amazing tho. 

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On 3/27/2017 at 3:05 PM, Hmmm_idolatry said:

Their diet is completely poor.  I once looked at Anna's chicken etti recipe and nearly puked when I saw that it had velveeta and cream of chicken soup.  I know that's just one recipe, but between that and their weird tater tot dish, I'm sure they're eating stuff like this regularly.  An average adult cannot eat like that and not pack on the pounds.  

What's amazing is that the majority of the Duggar kidults are quite thin despite this kind of diet into their early-to-mid-20s. Anna's had 4 kids in what, 6 or 7  years? - and she's still smaller than a lot of moms I know, especially in the South (that's not meant as snark - Southern states generally have the highest obesity rates in the US). And even Joshley is pretty average for an American guy, and probably thinner than a lot of his fellow Arkansans (where more than 1/3 of adults are obese, not just overweight). 

 

 

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Fuck this poor Josh bullshit! Whatever JB and Michelle did or didn't do doesn't change the severity of Josh's actions or make him less guilty. He did this. He knew it was wrong but did it anyway...multiple times.

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I agree, Shiverful. You have to teach your kids the good, bad & everything in between.

for example, a couple of years ago my kid kid asked me about the F word. She thought it was fricking. I had a choice but knew if I did not set her straight, it could lead to other issues (or a call from the school.) So I told her what it really is, with the request to never use it. She thought sex was adults kissing on the mouth, naked, wearing only underpants. I corrected her on that, then 2 days later she told me I was wrong cause she had another chat with her friends. We had another chat, that mommy really did know what sex a, better than a 9-10 year old. 

Point is kids are curious about things & ignoring their questions and normal urges leads to problems. Being open & honest is the best option, IMO.

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1 hour ago, RosyDaisy said:

Fuck this poor Josh bullshit! Whatever JB and Michelle did or didn't do doesn't change the severity of Josh's actions or make him less guilty. He did this. He knew it was wrong but did it anyway...multiple times.

I don't believe anyone is saying that Josh  is not responsible for his actions.

What many of us are saying is that Jim Bob and Michelle did not do anything to address the molestation in any meaningful way.  Locking the girls in their room and preaching modesty did nothing to protect the girls.

Their terrible belief system that makes all sins equal, does not allow female body autonomy, and also lays all sexual sins and responsibility upon women is where Josh was brought up.  Women must be passive, without the ability to give consent since they cannot  ever say no.  In addition, the privledge given to the oldest son over his sisters in their culture  gave him his feeling of entitlement to grab them by the pussy.   

Jim Bob and Michelle still do not think they did anything wrong in their management of Josh's incestuous assults on his sisters.  Josh was sent to preyhab because of the Ashley Madison publicity.

I do believe that Jim Bob and Michelle bear much of the responsibilty for the young Josh's actions.  They could have gotten real help but secure in their crappy religion's arms they did nothing to protect their daughters.

Remember when the incest story broke, they pimped out Jill and Jessa to do the interview whitewashing Josh's actions.  No matter if you like  Jill or Jessa that must have so traumatic for them.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, shiverful said:

He's also never learned about how important consent is in any sexual act. His parents, after all, believe in wives being available to husbands at all times. 

I do think that he did know that what he was doing was wrong, but I don't think that he knew how wrong, having nothing to compare it with. 

I did not know about Gothard/ATI until I started lurking this site. As an average viewer, I knew it was a Christian homeschool program, which I assumed was public school in a box, with an added religion elective. After coming on this site and learning about Gothard/ATI, and learning that consent is not part of the Gothard vocabulary, I have less hope for Josh, especially if he uses ATI to homeschool his children. That's a bad sign.

The entire ATI program is based on analogies, so it's kind of ironic that he didn't have anything to compare his actions to, but I think you're right. He didn't have a point of reference. 

ETA: ...but he knew what he was doing was wrong, just not HOW wrong 

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