Counting On: Season 3, Part 5: Engagment on the Horizon

[grandmadugger]

So I'm going to ramble and just spew everything in my head after getting caught up and a some of it I've said before so you may have seen it before.

Prior to finding FJ, when Jill got married, I would have said I was a fundie.  I believe the Bible was is the word of God, Jesus died for my sins, and the Holy Spirit is amongst us today.  I believe God created the earth, Eve was made from Adam's rib, and the awful cramps I get each month is due to her eating that stupid apple.  I believe homosexuality is a sin, life begins at conception, and the government controls too much of our lives.  All of that sounds pretty Duggar/Bates like doesn't it?  Here's where I differ and now know I'm not a fundie.  I don't believe God created the earth in a literal 7 days.  My junior high science teacher was also my Sunday school teacher I asked her once how could she tell me on Sunday God did it all and on Monday teach me about evolution.  Her answer has always stuck with me, "I don't believe we evolved from monkeys, I do believe man has evolved over the years though.  Man is who put the literal 7 days on the creation of the world but science has taught us that's wrong.  What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't think God couldn't have his hand guiding everything and revealing bits through science so we have a better understanding."  As far as the sins go here's the thing if we believe what the Bible says than we know we are all sinners who fall short in the eyes of God and the only deadly sin is not accepting Jesus.  I also believe that Jesus set us free of the OT law so I'm no longer bound to not eat pork, wear skirts only, stay out of church when I'm having my period, or stone sinners.

As far as government I made it a new paragraph because I think this might take a while and if you want to skip it you can find the beginning and the end of it easily. I don't want laws enacted based on my Christian religion.  IMO, it opens a slippery slope to enacting laws based on other religions.  I respect Jews and Muslims but I don't want pork outlawed because it goes against their religious beliefs.  Wanting to outlaw the marriage equality act isn't based on Christianity either, sin is sin and if you outlaw one you need to outlaw all of them and then we are following the OT and not the NT.  I also think if we are going to cut federal departments that help the poor than as Christians we better step up our church outreach programs.  Abortions will only be lowered, never eliminated, with proper sex education and access to birth control plus help for caring for those kids not aborted.  Again if you believe the Bible how do you skip when Jesus said "What you do to the least of these you do to me"  So you want to claim that you are a great Christian while starving people?  You are starving Jesus and I sure don't want to be standing before Christ saying "But they wouldn't come to my church so I didn't feed them".

I struggle with what to label myself.  I don't necessarily believe that everyone is equal in ability but I also don't believe one sex is better either.  I truly believe we are all given a set of gifts, regardless of sex,  and with those talents we compliment each other to make a better world/team/relationship.  When filling an open spot sex, race, religion shouldn't be looked at it should be does this person have the skills to fill the position and will they make our team better, that's it.

 

[Destiny]

3 hours ago, SugarMag said:

Looooooooong-time lurker here - so long, my old account seems to have been deactivated for non-use, lol! Had to make a new one to jump in on the current conversation 

Please pm myself or another admin immediately because this is against the rules and can lead to a ban. 

[zygote373]

34 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

I don't necessarily believe that everyone is equal in ability but I also don't believe one sex is better either.  I truly believe we are all given a set of gifts, regardless of sex,  and with those talents we compliment each other to make a better world/team/relationship.  When filling an open spot sex, race, religion shouldn't be looked at it should be does this person have the skills to fill the position and will they make our team better, that's it.

I agree with this in principle. In a perfect world, the goal is for sex, race, religion, etc. not to matter. But the reality is that it has and still does. For example, as a woman who went into science, I can say from direct experience that there is still a long way to go before there is equality in that field. Sure, I was admitted to the same graduate program with all the men. But I wasn't treated the same. The men were assumed competent until proven otherwise, I was assumed unintelligent until proven otherwise. It is exhausting to have to work twice as hard just to be seen as the same. I am still in a science field, but I am not in the type of tenure track academic position I envisioned when I started my degree. I didn't even apply because I didn't want it anymore. There's a reason you don't see as many women in science. It's not because we're not good at it, it's because we're just tired.

I hope that one day these issues no longer have to be a consideration because equality is more of a reality.

[TeamDefraudinSquad]

16 minutes ago, zygote373 said:

 There's a reason you don't see as many women in science. It's not because we're not good at it, it's because we're just tired.

I just want to say, thank you so much for the work you do! Several of my clients are scientists, due to the nature of the work the firm I'm employed with handles, and I have tons and tons of respect for female scientists, for exactly that reason. I cannot imagine how tiring it would be to be a bright woman in a male-dominated field, where your expertise is questioned constantly because of gender. The women that are brave enough to endure that day in and day out are my heroes.

[grandmadugger]

14 minutes ago, zygote373 said:

I agree with this in principle. In a perfect world, the goal is for sex, race, religion, etc. not to matter. But the reality is that it has and still does. For example, as a woman who went into science, I can say from direct experience that there is still a long way to go before there is equality in that field. Sure, I was admitted to the same graduate program with all the men. But I wasn't treated the same. The men were assumed competent until proven otherwise, I was assumed unintelligent until proven otherwise. It is exhausting to have to work twice as hard just to be seen as the same. I am still in a science field, but I am not in the type of tenure track academic position I envisioned when I started my degree. I didn't even apply because I didn't want it anymore. There's a reason you don't see as many women in science. It's not because we're not good at it, it's because we're just tired.

I hope that one day these issues no longer have to be a consideration because equality is more of a reality.

 

Yes in a perfect world the same can be said in a lot of fields for both sexes.  Male nurses for example, just because the guy went into nursing we have to say it?  I changed majors in school because my advisors told me there was no way I'd ever be hired as a female.  It pissed me off then and it pisses me off now.

[Queen]

I have to say I'm not tolerant of religion when it interferes with my own rights. Think same sex love is a sin? Shame on you. That abortion should be outlawed? GTFO. 

I'm so happy to see that many people from "both sides" are having peaceful discussions, that's great!, but I couldn't do it myself. I feel extremly threatened by people who thinks there's something wrong with me because I'm a lesbian or who wants to take away the rights to end an unwanted pregnancy from us uterus-people. That's not things I can debate. People saying things like homosexuality is a sin really hurt me. Every time. I don't care if you say there are thousands of "sins", that we're all sinners, because it's still hurtful. As long as you're not treating consensual same-sex love the same way you treat consensual hetero-love, you are homophobic. 

I'm sorry, I'm not the best representant for liberals, or for making people more open minded and accepting. It just feels like some conservative opinions are threatening my own life and well-being, and then I'm not able to stay calm. 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

1 hour ago, Queen said:

I have to say I'm not tolerant of religion when it interferes with my own rights. Think same sex love is a sin? Shame on you. That abortion should be outlawed? GTFO. 

I'm so happy to see that many people from "both sides" are having peaceful discussions, that's great!, but I couldn't do it myself. I feel extremly threatened by people who thinks there's something wrong with me because I'm a lesbian or who wants to take away the rights to end an unwanted pregnancy from us uterus-people. That's not things I can debate. People saying things like homosexuality is a sin really hurt me. Every time. I don't care if you say there are thousands of "sins", that we're all sinners, because it's still hurtful. As long as you're not treating consensual same-sex love the same way you treat consensual hetero-love, you are homophobic. 

I'm sorry, I'm not the best representant for liberals, or for making people more open minded and accepting. It just feels like some conservative opinions are threatening my own life and well-being, and then I'm not able to stay calm. 

I thought she was very clear though, that while she thinks homosexuality is a sin and life begins at conception, she doesn't want laws based on those biblical beliefs. 

[Kleine Vampirin]

I think it's the very act of thinking that homosexuality is a sin, regardless of convictions about enacting laws surrounding biblical beliefs, that is upsetting for many people. If I were homosexual, the idea that people thought I was sinful by my very nature would be extremely distressing. 

[KelseyAnn]

15 minutes ago, Kleine Vampirin said:

I think it's the very act of thinking that homosexuality is a sin, regardless of convictions about enacting laws surrounding biblical beliefs, that is upsetting for many people. If I were homosexual, the idea that people thought I was sinful by my very nature would be extremely distressing. 

 

It is, trust me. Especially when it's people you love and/or work for. THat people think you're garbage, a reprobate, all for something you cannot control hurts. And it doesn't matter if it 'comes from a place of love,' it sure as hell doesn't feel like it. 

[formergothardite]

It probably is very upsetting to read people saying a natural part of you, a part that harms no one, is sinful. 

[send*the*ferrets]

I came across a very snark-worthy Christian fundie-lite view of feminism the other day. 

desiringgod.org/articles/throw-like-a-girl

 not sure if I posted the link right- lmk if I need to change something. 

I think the bit about unconverted societies was my favorite. 

[HarleyQuinn]

2 hours ago, send*the*ferrets said:

I came across a very snark-worthy Christian fundie-lite view of feminism the other day. 

desiringgod.org/articles/throw-like-a-girl

 not sure if I posted the link right- lmk if I need to change something. 

I think the bit about unconverted societies was my favorite. 

I hate that there's no comment section on that article. I'd love to ask the author if Christianity invented men and women being equal, why do women get blamed for everything in the bible?

[send*the*ferrets]

27 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I hate that there's no comment section on that article. I'd love to ask the author if Christianity invented men and women being equal, why do women get blamed for everything in the bible?

If they left comments open, somebody might point out they are wrong. 

[grandmadugger]

9 hours ago, Queen said:

I have to say I'm not tolerant of religion when it interferes with my own rights. Think same sex love is a sin? Shame on you. That abortion should be outlawed? GTFO. 

I'm so happy to see that many people from "both sides" are having peaceful discussions, that's great!, but I couldn't do it myself. I feel extremly threatened by people who thinks there's something wrong with me because I'm a lesbian or who wants to take away the rights to end an unwanted pregnancy from us uterus-people. That's not things I can debate. People saying things like homosexuality is a sin really hurt me. Every time. I don't care if you say there are thousands of "sins", that we're all sinners, because it's still hurtful. As long as you're not treating consensual same-sex love the same way you treat consensual hetero-love, you are homophobic. 

I'm sorry, I'm not the best representant for liberals, or for making people more open minded and accepting. It just feels like some conservative opinions are threatening my own life and well-being, and then I'm not able to stay calm. 

 

I think a lot of things are sins including things I thoroughly enjoy.  I don't think there is anything wrong with you because you are a lesbian nor do I think your rights should be taken away or limited because of it.  That was my point just because I think something is a sin doesn't mean we should be regulating it.  The Bible is pretty clear that getting drunk is a sin and on Friday night I like to tie one on.  I don't want the government, outside of driving, telling me I can't drink in excess anymore than I think the government should tell you that you can't marry your girlfriend if you want to.  

[Lurky]

12 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

It is, trust me. Especially when it's people you love and/or work for. THat people think you're garbage, a reprobate, all for something you cannot control hurts. And it doesn't matter if it 'comes from a place of love,' it sure as hell doesn't feel like it. 

It never, ever stops hurting.  Equating the love I have for my partner to sins like lying, or drinking, that people can choose to do, and do once or twice, then get forgiven for, is just wrong.  I can't just stop being gay.

It's like this:  a straight person has probably never had a revelatory moment that they were straight.  And it's not something that they think about all the time, but it's there when they talk about their marriage, when, I don't know, they buy something for supper because they know their partner would like, or see something in the street that reminds them of a joke that their partner told them.  To be told that all those moments, the times I just sit on the sofa reading, while my partner does the same - not talking, just enjoying the intimacy; or when I look at the home we've made together; when I see something nice she's done for me; when I buy the brand of washing powder that doesn't irritate her skin - ALL that is framed as a sin, and frequently, in the same way as sins that hurt other people.  "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a nasty, nasty mantra when applied to us - it's complete nonsense that you can separate out homosexuality from my life. 

And it hurts.  I have said this a lot here, but my partner had "pray away the gay" therapy, and the choices she was offered were evil:  marry a man at age 18, because "once you have kids you won't care about sex any more" (as if love, and lesbianism, is nothing more than sex"; or to choose to live alone, never having intimacy and love, fighting her desires for companionship and knowing that what she wanted was a a sin.). 

Of course some people choose to live alone, or are single against their will - but to tell someone at 18 years old that they can either make a marriage that's a lie, or to be alone forever, that's horrible.  My partner just couldn't believe in a God that would arbitrarily make her gay and then make her suffer for it - especially when she'd prayed and prayed so hard to be turned straight.  When she really felt that God was telling her, during and after this whole process, that it was ok to be gay, just be make sure she was a good, honourable person etc, and she was told no, that was Satan talking, it devastated her.  BUT thank goodness she trusted herself, even though it meant she was kicked out of the church.

(I am also always confused about how the sin=sex except when it doesn't.  We've been together for over 20 years, which has included us living apart for her education, and when I've worked away, and long times we never had sex because of illness, depression, injury.  It's not like we were suddenly seen as unsinful in those periods of time!)

Ugh, that was long.  But even reading how people justify their beliefs that I am less than them, abomination, sinful with every breath I take - that really, really hurts, on a level that's hard to explain.  Of course people like @grandmadugger have the right to believe it, and say it, and talk about their beliefs - and I'd never want it banned, or people to self-censor, if that's what they believe - BUT understand that it really, really hurts, even if you think you're being nice about it.

[nastyhobbitses]

20 hours ago, zygote373 said:

I think the feminism label suffers from a lot of the same issues as the black lives matter label. It's not about women or people of color being better than men/white people, it's about the fact that, historically, both those groups have been treated as less than. So raising women and people of color up is about bringing them to the same level they always should have been in the first place. Because centering women/black people goes against the status quo, it can feel like special treatment or favoring. But it's not.

I am torn about the feminism label. On the one hand, I think it's important to acknowledge that it's not just the vague concept of gender equality that we care about. It is specifically addressing the problem of women not being treated equally, and I think that emphasis is important to keep the root of the issue out in the open. However, I do realize that there is a lot of baggage with the word, and that it turns off a lot of people who identify as feminists in all but name.

There's also just how it's been co-opted in some pretty detrimental ways. I pass by Saks Fifth Avenue on my commute every morning, and they have a big window display of a Dior collection that includes a T-shirt that says "We Should All Be Feminists", and the display features gorgeous white models prancing about with conspicuous Dior bags and outfits, while WE SHOULD ALL BE FEMINISTS flashes on the screen behind them. Fine enough sentiment, but I'm not sure if a fashion company that vanishingly few women who truly need to benefit from the things feminism champions can ever dream of affording, and that glorifies a very narrow view of femininity and beauty, is the best messenger for it. 

And I'm sure that this will get me some major flames, but I had the same sort of misgivings about Beyonce's FEMINIST stunt a few years back. I do think that she's done a lot of positive things for women and the black community, but I also wonder if we should examine that she's a multimillionaire who also fits a pretty narrow stereotype of feminine beauty, and around the same time as the stunt, did a song where her husband (featured on the track) makes a direct allusion to Ike Turner's physical and emotional abuse of Tina Turner and compares himself to Ike Turner, with zero commentary or acknowledgement that maybe Ike and Tina are not a great couple to compare yourselves to.

[singsingsing]

I personally believe that sin is something that separates you from God (or the higher power, the ideal, unconditional love, whatever you want to call it). I fail to see how loving another person, regardless of their sex or gender, does that. I'd say it does the opposite (as they say in Les Miserables, to love another person is to see the face of God). 

[snarkysuki1724]

13 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

It is, trust me. Especially when it's people you love and/or work for. THat people think you're garbage, a reprobate, all for something you cannot control hurts. And it doesn't matter if it 'comes from a place of love,' it sure as hell doesn't feel like it. 

Proud, loving, PFLAG momma here, we have some fundie-light Southern Baptist cousins with three adult children who wouldn't go near my entire family group at a family event last week.  I'm straight and it sickened me, so, imagine how my adult child felt.  I'm done with the hatred, especially in the name of Jesus, just no. And I'm in no way trying to be discriminatory against all Southern Baptists, just my shitty (ex)family. 

[Marly]

1 hour ago, Lurky said:

It never, ever stops hurting.  Equating the love I have for my partner to sins like lying, or drinking, that people can choose to do, and do once or twice, then get forgiven for, is just wrong.  I can't just stop being gay.

This. Exactly. Homosexuality is not a choice. Binge-drinking is a choice. Killing someone just because you didn't like the look on that person's face is a choice. You can choose not to drink, you can choose not to kill, but you can't choose to be straight. 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but judging people for things that are out of their control is hurtful and, imo, mean. What if I were to say that I believe having cancer is a sin or having down syndrome is a sin because my religion says so?* I would be bashed and rightfully so, because these things aren't choices, or options, that can be changed or turned on/off at will.

*I absolutely do not believe anything like this, I merely use this statement to make a point.

[Fascinated]

And here we have one very big reason why I am atheist.  I believe the notion of sin was introduced by man to, 1) explain the unexplainable: if god created everyone and god is perfect, why is there evil? and, 2), to keep the masses in line.  For control.  

So, we have many religious people who believe that homosexuality is a sin.  It's mentioned in the Bible here and there.  Millions of people believe this.  And millions of people are teaching their kids this.  I think it is absolutely despicable.  

[singsingsing]

The basis for being anti gay marriage or homophobic in the Bible is extremely thin. Most of it comes from Paul, who was basically anti everything. Even leaving it aside that Paul's conception of homosexuality is not what we would recognize in the 21st century, here are some other things he warns against just as harshly:

getting drunk

coveting something you don't have

women speaking in church

women having long hair unless they keep it covered

marrying a non-Christian

foolish jesting

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few homophobic Christians who think gay marriage is a blight on society, who roll out of bed a little late on Sunday morning because they had a couple beers too many the night before. They check their phone for a text from their non-Christian fiance (but it's okay, she's a really great person). They go to church where a female congregant gets up to read a passage from scripture. About half of the women in the congregation have long hair, and none of them cover it. In the parking lot after service, they think about how much they wish they could afford a pickup truck like Joe, and why does Joe get such an awesome truck anyway? Joe's an idiot. It's April 1st, and on the way home they stop off at their brother's to play a hilarious practical joke. 

That's not even touching on something like adultery, which is referenced far more often in the Bible, is warned against over and over again, and yet I don't see hordes of Christians demanding that it be outlawed. Where are all the people being imprisoned, or at least fined, for committing adultery? Adultery is a far greater threat to society and heterosexual marriage than homosexuality (which is not a threat at all), yet the Christian right is obsessed with homosexuality and disturbingly tolerant of adultery. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

[Carm_88]

Love between two consenting adults is never wrong. People trying to define what love is, that is what is wrong. 

ED: It's not wrong between teens either!  

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

 

That's not even touching on something like adultery, which is referenced far more often in the Bible, is warned against over and over again, and yet I don't see hordes of Christians demanding that it be outlawed.

This is my favorite part, because none of these right wing Christians have a good answer for it. 

[SamiKatz]

As a child growing up, my mother was very liberal (she still is to a large extent).  She had a close friend who was lesbian, and my mother told my sisters and I that some women love men, and some women love other women and that is just the way it is.  My Mom's friend (and her girlfriend), would take us on excursions all the time - to their house to play, to movies, other fun stuff.  For a period of time, they even lived on our property in a Silverstream trailer.   So my sisters and I absolutely grew up thinking it was no big deal at all, and that indeed, sometimes women just loved other women.

Later in life my mother became "Christian", going to the Salvation Army, and she now tells me homosexuality is a sin. 

Very sad.

[candygirl200413]

So when I was growing up I had no idea that my parents were liberal. I developed my opinions like some people like the same sex and that is okay and not a choice. I'll never forget the day when my blinders came off and one of my church leaders was CRYING like needed to be consoled because Obama finally came out for marriage equality she couldn't believe that someone like a President could accept something that in her eyes among others in my sunday school class at the time that I had to walk out and compose my own thoughts cause I didn't understand why people would hate others for being born the way they were.

It still has stuck with me almost 10 years later.