Counting On: Season 3, Part 5: Engagment on the Horizon

[Karma]

I'm lucky to live a short drive from the beach.  When things get tough I drive there, park and listen to the waves (it's usually nighttime so too dark to see much).  It's very calming,

[CuttySark]

12 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Well, it's more important not to be a hypocrite, IMO, than to make sure your meat and your milk plates don't mix.

I swore I was not going to get involved in the Torah-bashing, but come on. There are many non-Christians (Hi!) who live by interpretations of many of the precepts that Christian fundamentalism takes so literally from what they condescendingly call the Old Testament. 

It is entirely possible to reject the literalist, legalistic and abusive use of the law as it appears in Christian fundamentalist circles without being deeply offensive towards liberal Judaism at the same time. The intention may not be anti-semitic, but the result most certainly is to portray us as still living in some kind of dark age. 

I was raised Modern Orthodox. Then I intermarried and I'm queer, now Conservative (which is a liberal stream, not conservative - that would be the Orthodox. go figure!), a loudmouthed agnostic feminist activist protester -- and yeah, I still keep kosher. Not because I think it's more important to wash two sets of dishes than to be a good person, but because I believe strongly that it inspires mindfulness about my eating habits, which in turn leads me to make more ethical and healthy choices surrounding food. 

And all of that, thank you, is entirely in line with Judaism, and interpretations of the text rooted in Jewish ethics.

Protest those who would use the ancient written law as a hammer -- I certainly do! But it's not the fault of the text, or those of us who explore the living law as a guide. 

[Queen]

8 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I've spent a great deal of time with religious and non-religious people alike, and I've never noticed a significant difference in their ethical behaviour. I was raised in a fairly secular environment by non-religious parents and would describe myself as non-religious today. The idea that you need to believe in God to do the right thing has always been both laughable and disturbing to me, as has the notion that you can't be 'spiritual' and 'rational' at the same time. If not for God, you would kill, steal, cheat and lie? Isaac Newton and Francis Bacon were incapable of logic and reason? Really?

I have to say I have noticed some differences myself, growing up within the Lutheran state Church (nope, we don't have separation between church and state yet, but I would say there is less religion in our public day-to-day life here than there seem to be in America. Religion is seen as something you do in private, not something you flaunt in public.) 

It's not like not believing would automatically make you more moral, you could still be an asshole, but more like religion restricts good people. That's my experience. Many (not all though!) of the things religious books teach (like circumcision, patriarchy, slavery, capital punishment, having to wait til marriage, banning masturbation, pork and working on weekends etc.) are outdated and not progressive or good compared to today's society's standards. We have evolved and progressed!  Well, somewhat. 

As a Christian I felt I "had to" approve of incest, war, a parent killing their only child (Abraham), God punishing people left and right (like having a fish swallowing them, forcing to live 40 extra years in the desert, and losing your family like Job), rape (God didn't ask Mary, did he?) etc, because these were stores in the Bible, and regardless if they were 100% true or not - opinions waried - you still had to see them as morally right. And the Lutheran state Church is seen as the most liberal and "worldly" Christan church in Finland, compared to the other ones like the Mormons, Pentecostals, JW's and Baptists. 

This is just my limited experience, though. I know there are not that bad parts in the Bible, but the book is way too conservative and blackandwhite for me. Not just some parts, but all of it. Jesus is more progressive, but I think he's way from perfect, and my congregation forced us to think he was. And I don't believe in any supernatural things, for me he's just a Jewish preacher.   

[LilMissMetaphor]

24 minutes ago, CuttySark said:

I swore I was not going to get involved in the Torah-bashing, but come on. There are many non-Christians (Hi!) who live by interpretations of many of the precepts that Christian fundamentalism takes so literally from what they condescendingly call the Old Testament. 

It is entirely possible to reject the literalist, legalistic and abusive use of the law as it appears in Christian fundamentalist circles without being deeply offensive towards liberal Judaism at the same time. The intention may not be anti-semitic, but the result most certainly is to portray us as still living in some kind of dark age. 

I was raised Modern Orthodox. Then I intermarried and I'm queer, now Conservative (which is a liberal stream, not conservative - that would be the Orthodox. go figure!), a loudmouthed agnostic feminist activist protester -- and yeah, I still keep kosher. Not because I think it's more important to wash two sets of dishes than to be a good person, but because I believe strongly that it inspires mindfulness about my eating habits, which in turn leads me to make more ethical and healthy choices surrounding food. 

And all of that, thank you, is entirely in line with Judaism, and interpretations of the text rooted in Jewish ethics.

Protest those who would use the ancient written law as a hammer -- I certainly do! But it's not the fault of the text, or those of us who explore the living law as a guide. 

I don't disagree at all, actually.  I was trying to speak to the fact that there are some absolute laws in the Bible, and there are some cultural precepts, and we shouldn't act as if it's so baffling trying to figure out which is more relevant.  Like "OMG, I'm so confused, the Bible tells people not to murder, but it also tells them not to eat pork, tee hee, which one is more important?" It's disingenuous.  One doesn't have to pretend they can't "justify" belief in a higher power because they take issue with certain aspects of the scripture directed to a specific group of people living a very long time ago.    

[CuttySark]

1 hour ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

some absolute laws in the Bible, and there are some cultural precepts, and we shouldn't act as if it's so baffling trying to figure out which is more relevant.

Sure, I agree with that. But what I've seen a huge amount of in this thread alone over the past few days, is people taking lines of the Torah out of context in order to present them as ridiculous, irrelevant or laughable precepts from a savage age. And what I'm saying is that is the kind of attitude which leads to practicing Jews being seen as ridiculous, irrelevant, laughable and savage.  

We agree absolutely that murder is a more important problem than keeping kosher -- and so does Jewish law. But there's nothing inherently ridiculous about avoiding eating shellfish in a desert without refrigeration (original context), or not eating scavenger species fished unsustainably, often from polluted waters (modern). 

[Greendoor]

I thought the whole of scripture was to be interpreted and not taken literally.

 

[Palimpsest]

17 hours ago, nssherlock said:

It saddens me when I come here, hoping to find those who see the Duggars and their cult as the evil it is, and then get side tracked endlessly in discussing their particular version of that supreme being who knows all, sees all, and to whom we give up our autonomy and responsibility.

The stated purpose here at free Jinger is to discuss and criticize extreme fundamentalist beliefs.  We don't solely discuss the Duggars.  I would say the majority of us see their version of extreme fundamentalism as a cult.  Sometimes we have to point out the cult aspect to newcomers who just see the shiny made-for-TV facade.  We discuss our religion beliefs (or our  lack thereof) a lot.  

We define fundamentalism fairly loosely.  The defining characteristic for most of us seems to be: An extreme fundamentalist (Fundie) is someone who attempts to force their beliefs upon others.  We come from many different backgrounds but we usually try to respect each other's beliefs.  We do pay special attention to Patriarchal beliefs because we believe they endanger women and children. 

Militant atheists trying to force their view on others count as extreme Fundies to me.  You will get push back if you continue on this aggressive track.

12 hours ago, singsingsing said:

 I'm not sure why there's been a sudden influx of newer posters, both religious and non-religious, in the past couple days feeling the need to lecture huge swathes of us for believing or disbelieving the wrong things. Leave that shit to the fundies. 

Yes, we get the occasional wave of new posters who don't understand what we are all about.  Sometimes they settle in.  Sometimes FJ is not the right forum for them.  

We also occasionally get some waves of trolls who want to stir things up.  It seems to be a bad week for that.

11 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I just wanted to chime in and say that some of the most moral and ethical people I know are atheists.

Thank you, I agree.  And I try my best to be moral and ethical without being either particularly spiritual or believing in a Supreme Being.  Or Beings. 

[nssherlock]

First of all, it's extremely rude of you to refer to me as 'Virgin'. To be respectful in the future, please refer to me by my full ceremonial title, "Virgin Who Can't Drive."

Second of all, peace and calm? Perish the thought! I worship Mars, god of war. And Thor (but only on Thursdays, naturally). I would consider myself a spiritual failure if I ever fell below a certain threshold of rage.

 

 

Ah, that's o.k., you can ramble on at will, without me.  I was asking you what "spirituality"  meant and you babble drivel that is obviously nothing more than attention seeking nonsense.

 

 

 

[singsingsing]

8 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

First of all, it's extremely rude of you to refer to me as 'Virgin'. To be respectful in the future, please refer to me by my full ceremonial title, "Virgin Who Can't Drive."

Second of all, peace and calm? Perish the thought! I worship Mars, god of war. And Thor (but only on Thursdays, naturally). I would consider myself a spiritual failure if I ever fell below a certain threshold of rage.

 

 

Ah, that's o.k., you can ramble on at will, without me.  I was asking you what "spirituality"  meant and you babble drivel that is obviously nothing more than attention seeking nonsense.

 

 

 

Dabadoochea! Keeyaa! Sooofleee! Um, dag dag.  

Oh, by the way, if you want to quote someone's post just hit the "Quote" button on the bottom right corner. Otherwise it kind of looks like you're talking to yourself, and you wouldn't want to babble drivel that is obviously nothing more than attention seeking nonsense, now, would you?

May Rufus bless you richly.

[Snarkle Motion]

12 hours ago, nssherlock said:

"Might I add, that you can be spiritual and not belong to any organized religion."

 

May I ask what I means to be "spiritual" and why is it better than being logical and dealing with reality?

How do you define "spiritual" as opposed to believing in a Deity?

One can admire nature - the sea, ones garden, the birds, etc. without labeling it "spiritual" --- yet some here laud themselves on being that more so than the rest of us mortals.

When I heard the learn'd astronomer, When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me, When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them, When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room, How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick, Till rising and gliding out I wander'd off by myself, In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time, Look'd up in perfect silence at the stars.

Walt Whitman

[Meridae]

1 hour ago, Queen said:

As a Christian I felt I "had to" approve of incest, war, a parent killing their only child (Abraham), God punishing people left and right (like having a fish swallowing them, forcing to live 40 extra years in the desert, and losing your family like Job), rape (God didn't ask Mary, did he?) etc, because these were stores in the Bible, and regardless if they were 100% true or not - opinions waried - you still had to see them as morally right. 

It's been a very long time since my last theology class but I'm pretty sure she was asked...

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, potato said:

I just drove down (and back up) Lake Shore Drive today!  Unfortunately, I had to focus on driving, but I got to sit on a beach for a while afterwards

I'm a native Chicagoan and the lakefront is the best thing about this location. I live way out in the suburbs now and I miss the water.

[MargaretElliott]

To quote something I saw on the internet one time: Religion is like a penis. You can have it, you can be proud of it, but please don't just whip it out all the time, and please don't shove it down children's throats.

May Rufus bless this post (can we get a Rufus sticker? Who's in charge of that sort of thing?)

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

To quote something I saw on the internet one time: Religion is like a penis. You can have it, you can be proud of it, but please don't just whip it out all the time, and please don't shove it down children's throats.

May Rufus bless this post (can we get a Rufus sticker? Who's in charge of that sort of thing?)

I respect people's individual beliefs, so long as they're not trying to impose them on others. You can be a Christian, but please refrain from telling atheists and agnostics that there's a God-shaped hole in their lives. You can be an atheist, but please don't shit all over someone for saying that watching the ocean is a spiritual experience for them. Live and let live.

And remember, Rufus is always watching.

[Playagirl]

10 hours ago, Karma said:

I'm lucky to live a short drive from the beach.  When things get tough I drive there, park and listen to the waves (it's usually nighttime so too dark to see much).  It's very calming,

So so lucky. I live near a river and, though there's no waves that I can hear, it's still calming to sit and look at the water. I try to get to an actual beach with real waves for as many of my vacations as I can, even though it takes hours to get to one. There's just something so soothing and healing about it; it puts all of my problems in perspective. I went to Cuba this winter and it rained one day. My husband and I spent 2 hours walking on the beach in the wind and the rain. It was the best part of our entire week.

[AlwaysExcited]

Now I MUST ask: Who is Rufus? I never heard of him. Need I hear the good news of Rufus? 

[singsingsing]

12 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Now I MUST ask: Who is Rufus? I never heard of him. Need I hear the good news of Rufus? 

Jinger was driving to Jessa's house on the night of Spurgeon's birth. A deer jumped out in front of her car and she hit it. She decided to have the head stuffed and mounted by her taxidermist friend, and she named it Rufus. She took it with her to Laredo when she moved, and it was installed in a place of honour on the wall above the bed.

There was a short-lived conspiracy theory that Jinger had not actually hit Rufus with her car. I'm not sure why. Fuel was added to the fire when it was discovered that the Duggars owned multiple stuffed deer heads! But then it was conclusively proven by a savvy observer that Rufus was not one of those heads.

This all led me to believe that Jinger and Jeremy are secretly involved in some kind of neopagan deer-worshiping cult. Since then, Rufus has been steadily gaining followers. Blessed be his mighty antlers.

[AlwaysExcited]

Thank you for introducing me with this fascinating and slightly creepy story. May Rufus gain more followers to his Rufusdom.  

[Buzzard]

49 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Thank you for introducing me with this fascinating and slightly creepy story. May Rufus gain more followers to his Rufusdom.  

There are several screen shots of various unfortunate deer (and Rufus).  Honestly, he's one of the coolest things I've seen a Duggar do.  Its fucked up and I kind of like it!

[Hmmm_idolatry]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I respect people's individual beliefs, so long as they're not trying to impose them on others. You can be a Christian, but please refrain from telling atheists and agnostics that there's a God-shaped hole in their lives. You can be an atheist, but please don't shit all over someone for saying that watching the ocean is a spiritual experience for them. Live and let live.

And remember, Rufus is always watching.

Amen to this.  I have a friend whose father used to say, "Religion is a wonderful, fulfilling thing to have in your life.  And it works best when you keep it to yourself." 

[Pasta]

3 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I'm a native Chicagoan and the lakefront is the best thing about this location. I live way out in the suburbs now and I miss the water.

Me too but I have a doctor's in rhe city so I make a point to see the water whenever I'm there. I just love it so much. Rivers aren't as exciting as the lake, unfortunately. 

[Carm_88]

5 hours ago, Meridae said:

It's been a very long time since my last theology class but I'm pretty sure she was asked...

Yep the angel Gabriel came to Mary and asked her, I believe. 

[Lizzybet]

15 hours ago, Cat Damon said:

Religion is so weird to me- I am a lapsed Catholic, and I went to a Catholic grade school and high school. My school was rather liberal (which I'm realizing way later), because I remember my senior year religion teacher telling us that he didn't believe in a god that would send anyone to hell- if he loved us like we were promised, wouldn't he forgive us no matter what (like our parents did) and want us to be happy? I wonder what the Duggars would think of my old teacher's thoughts.

He was a wonderful teacher.

Same here, raised very Catholic, school, mass, holy days of obligation, etc. I can see now my school (aside from a few, old school type nuns) was progressive. This was around the time of Vatican II.

I too have lapsed, but as I've mentioned here, before, I miss some of the rituals, especially the Mass, High Mass mainly, with all the chanting/sung prayers, and Benediction.

I HATED all that when I was a kid!

[SilverBeach]

6 hours ago, nssherlock said:

 

Ah, that's o.k., you can ramble on at will, without me.  I was asking you what "spirituality"  meant and you babble drivel that is obviously nothing more than attention seeking nonsense.

 

I just got my nails done in mood red that changes from bright to darker. Sometimes it looks ombre. Its a fun thing in my overly serious life. 

[apandaaries]

8 hours ago, CuttySark said:

I swore I was not going to get involved in the Torah-bashing, but come on. There are many non-Christians (Hi!) who live by interpretations of many of the precepts that Christian fundamentalism takes so literally from what they condescendingly call the Old Testament. 

It is entirely possible to reject the literalist, legalistic and abusive use of the law as it appears in Christian fundamentalist circles without being deeply offensive towards liberal Judaism at the same time. The intention may not be anti-semitic, but the result most certainly is to portray us as still living in some kind of dark age. 

<snip>

Protest those who would use the ancient written law as a hammer -- I certainly do! But it's not the fault of the text, or those of us who explore the living law as a guide. 

Just want to interject that as far as I can tell, most people here use examples from the Torah to underscore the peculiar way certain Christians choose to interpret and enforce them, or as you stated, "those who would use the ancient written law as a hammer."  For example, the Duggars make a fairly big deal about avoiding pork, while not doing a single other thing to attempt to keep kosher (well, I suppose one could argue that their use of disposable plates means that no plates are ever designated for meat or milk, and that no utensils will be accidentally soiled -- but their use of cream o' crap soup + meat in everything destroys any hope of a kosher meal).  There are other "Christian" families which make the women (married or not) cover their hair, or the Anderson family, who actively protest the very existence of LGBTIA+ members of society and call for their deaths based on that little line in Leviticus.  These are the folks picking and choosing their legalistic ideas, pretending they're following the Bible, and then trying to legislate the rest of us into following their interpretations.

I think the spirit of most of the posters here is to point out that the so-called Christians we follow carefully select what aspects of the bible they follow.  There is a lot of uncomfortable appropriation of Jewish law by these Christians.  From my understanding, those who follow Christianity are supposed to follow the words of Jesus and his new covenant, which means that Christians are no longer bound by the rules from the Torah.  There are a number of us who enjoy pointing out the inconsistencies involved in the lives of these fundie Christians.  Such moments, at least for me and a number of other posters (though I cannot and do not speak for them, of course) are in no way jabs at the Torah or those who follow it, but ways to demonstrate fundie hypocrisy.  

I think most (but certainly not all) of the posters in the current thread drift appreciate the role that religion can play in the lives of the religious...and that most can also appreciate the fact that not everyone finds comfort with the concept of a divine deity and prefer atheism...and that some embrace a freer form of spirituality.