Counting On: Season 3, Part 5: Engagment on the Horizon

[Nikedagain?]

3 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

This is my favorite part, because none of these right wing Christians have a good answer for it. 

They don't have an answer for many things.

I love this thread drift. I am also appreciating FJ more by the day.

I have lived in the bible belt for my entire life and have always attended protestant church, etc, etc. I am fortunate that I live in a very, very liberal oasis in an embarrassing state (think bathroom bill  )

And this might sound TRITE and I am admitting it, but I have had a REAL crisis of faith since 11/9. 

[KelseyAnn]

7 hours ago, Lurky said:

It never, ever stops hurting.  Equating the love I have for my partner to sins like lying, or drinking, that people can choose to do, and do once or twice, then get forgiven for, is just wrong.  I can't just stop being gay.

It's like this:  a straight person has probably never had a revelatory moment that they were straight.  And it's not something that they think about all the time, but it's there when they talk about their marriage, when, I don't know, they buy something for supper because they know their partner would like, or see something in the street that reminds them of a joke that their partner told them.  To be told that all those moments, the times I just sit on the sofa reading, while my partner does the same - not talking, just enjoying the intimacy; or when I look at the home we've made together; when I see something nice she's done for me; when I buy the brand of washing powder that doesn't irritate her skin - ALL that is framed as a sin, and frequently, in the same way as sins that hurt other people.  "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a nasty, nasty mantra when applied to us - it's complete nonsense that you can separate out homosexuality from my life. 

And it hurts.  I have said this a lot here, but my partner had "pray away the gay" therapy, and the choices she was offered were evil:  marry a man at age 18, because "once you have kids you won't care about sex any more" (as if love, and lesbianism, is nothing more than sex"; or to choose to live alone, never having intimacy and love, fighting her desires for companionship and knowing that what she wanted was a a sin.). 

Of course some people choose to live alone, or are single against their will - but to tell someone at 18 years old that they can either make a marriage that's a lie, or to be alone forever, that's horrible.  My partner just couldn't believe in a God that would arbitrarily make her gay and then make her suffer for it - especially when she'd prayed and prayed so hard to be turned straight.  When she really felt that God was telling her, during and after this whole process, that it was ok to be gay, just be make sure she was a good, honourable person etc, and she was told no, that was Satan talking, it devastated her.  BUT thank goodness she trusted herself, even though it meant she was kicked out of the church.

(I am also always confused about how the sin=sex except when it doesn't.  We've been together for over 20 years, which has included us living apart for her education, and when I've worked away, and long times we never had sex because of illness, depression, injury.  It's not like we were suddenly seen as unsinful in those periods of time!)

Ugh, that was long.  But even reading how people justify their beliefs that I am less than them, abomination, sinful with every breath I take - that really, really hurts, on a level that's hard to explain.  Of course people like @grandmadugger have the right to believe it, and say it, and talk about their beliefs - and I'd never want it banned, or people to self-censor, if that's what they believe - BUT understand that it really, really hurts, even if you think you're being nice about it.

 

I never had to go to a conversion camp, but still, it was miserable. Being surrounded my people who told you your soul could be doomed to hell for the smallest infraction, like talking back to your mother after she hit you, is terrifying for a small child. Then to discover you're gay, the biggest sin of all in most people's eyes, worse even than murder, is debilitating. I spent long hours on my knees praying ardently that I could be fixed, only to still have the same attraction to women. I lived in mortal terror of the rapture, afraid that I woudln't get to go to Heaven along with everyone else because I wasn't 'right.' There were night terrors, vivid dreams I would have of being lifted (and feeling the sensation in my gut) and then being forcibly lammed down to earth beacuse I was a disgusting queer. 

And while, yet people are allowed to have thier opinions- I'm allowed to think of them as morally objectionable and disgusting. I didn't chose to be this way at all. And for people to equate me with sinners of the sort that got Gommorah destroyed, is hypocrital when I am sure more than half of them are living in adultery or sacriledge. 

[Fascinated]

4 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

I never had to go to a conversion camp, but still, it was miserable. Being surrounded my people who told you your soul could be doomed to hell for the smallest infraction, like talking back to your mother after she hit you, is terrifying for a small child. Then to discover you're gay, the biggest sin of all in most people's eyes, worse even than murder, is debilitating. I spent long hours on my knees praying ardently that I could be fixed, only to still have the same attraction to women. I lived in mortal terror of the rapture, afraid that I woudln't get to go to Heaven along with everyone else because I wasn't 'right.' There were night terrors, vivid dreams I would have of being lifted (and feeling the sensation in my gut) and then being forcibly lammed down to earth beacuse I was a disgusting queer. 

And while, yet people are allowed to have thier opinions- I'm allowed to think of them as morally objectionable and disgusting. I didn't chose to be this way at all. And for people to equate me with sinners of the sort that got Gommorah destroyed, is hypocrital when I am sure more than half of them are living in adultery or sacriledge. 

I honestly see this as child abuse.  How many suffer like you have? So, so many.  I can't imagine the guilt and terror (carried into adulthood) one would feel being raised to believe all of that...stuff.  This thread is bringing out the (usually dormant) militant atheist in me.  I just wish that people would take the blinders off and stop being, in my opinion, willfully ignorant.  Will that ever happen??  I hate the answer to that question.

[KelseyAnn]

1 minute ago, Fascinated said:

I honestly see this as child abuse.  How many suffer like you have? So, so many.  I can't imagine the guilt and terror (carried into adulthood) one would feel being raised to believe all of that...stuff.  This thread is bringing out the (usually dormant) militant atheist in me.  I just wish that people would take the blinders off and stop being, in my opinion, willfully ignorant.  Will that ever happen??  I hate the answer to that question.

 

I actually just converted to atheism a few months ago. Therapy had helped me a lot to not fear that God was going to smite me for the smallest infractions, like not praying ardently enough, or the big ones either like thinking Mila Kunis was hot. 

Just a few weeks ago I actually gathered the courage to pick up "The God Delusion." Ever since then, I'm not afraid of God anymore. How can I fear what I believe doesn't exist?! If only I had read him sooner!

Life is much better since my conversion. I don't spend so much time wondering why it was God didn't help me away from my abusive family, and fearing that it was because I was born wicked. I no longer believe I'm inferior because I don't have a penis. I no longer fear and hate immigrants. 

It was awakening for me, and I hope, like you do, that other's like me can break free. 

 

[Carm_88]

@KelseyAnn You are so strong!  I hope that for all those like you too! 

[Fascinated]

Just now, KelseyAnn said:

I actually just converted to atheism a few months ago. Therapy had helped me a lot to not fear that God was going to smite me for the smallest infractions, like not praying ardently enough, or the big ones either like thinking Mila Kunis was hot. 

Just a few weeks ago I actually gathered the courage to pick up "The God Delusion." Ever since then, I'm not afraid of God anymore. How can I fear what I believe doesn't exist?! If only I had read him sooner!

Life is much better since my conversion. I don't spend so much time wondering why it was God didn't help me away from my abusive family, and fearing that it was because I was born wicked. I no longer believe I'm inferior because I don't have a penis. I no longer fear and hate immigrants. 

It was awakening for me, and I hope, like you do, that other's like me can break free. 

 

I have goosebumps!!!!  This makes me so happy!  You're exactly right. If there is no god, then all of this is complete and utter bullshit, right?  No self-respecting god would create you, only to have you suffer so.  It makes no sense.  I'm so glad you see it that way, and truly hope you are now able to live the life you deserve.  (Goosebumps, I tell you.) 

[send*the*ferrets]

My parents were always fairly liberal- my mom was raised Southern Baptist, got pregnant with me and she and my dad had a shotgun wedding less than a month after they met  they actually worked through it all and have a good marriage now, but they've grown together and my mom now thinks the beliefs she was raised with are harmful. My dad was not raised religious- my grandpa would go to the casino every Sunday morning and say, "it's more fun than church, and a better class of people anyway" 

 

I actually met my husband at a super fundie church camp when we were kids. My cousins invited me (they are fundie lite). I was told I was going to hell for being Methodist, by an 11 year old. Because apparently Methodists might as well be Catholic, and everybody knows Catholics are going to hell with their wine drinking and dancing. We are both atheists now- I just grew out of church, my husband had a rather dramatic falling out in high school. His parents got a divorce (his dad- a deacon-had an affair with a church member) and they were told they were no longer welcome in the church. Not because of the affair... because of the divorce. 

[singsingsing]

I highly recommend Mike McHargue's book Finding God in the Waves to anyone struggling with their spiritual beliefs, or even to people perfectly comfortable in their belief system but interested in the relationship between science and faith and the function of religion and spirituality in the 21st century. I've never come across anyone whose spiritual beliefs align so closely with my own, or any person who identifies with any belief system who is more honest and open about all the various problems, benefits, questions and inconsistencies. The description will tell you it's about how he 'came back to God through science', which is basically true, but it is most definitely not an apologetic, or one of those "gotcha! here's how I used science to prove the Christian God is real and the Bible is inerrant!" things.

[jerkit]

Just now, singsingsing said:

I highly recommend Mike McHargue's book Finding God in the Waves to anyone struggling with their spiritual beliefs, or even to people perfectly comfortable in their belief system but interested in the relationship being science and faith and the function of religion and spirituality in the 21st century. I've never come across anyone whose spiritual beliefs align so closely with my own, or any person who identifies with any belief system who is more honest and open about all the various problems, benefits, questions and inconsistencies. The description will tell you it's about how he 'came back to God through science', which is basically true, but it is most definitely not an apologetic, or one of those "gotcha! here's how I used science to prove the Christian God is real and the Bible is inerrant!" things.

QFT

[JordynDarby5]

I never realized I was liberal growing up. I never thought what I believed it would be considered liberal. It just seemed normal to me.  Men marrying men or women marrying women never seemed weird to me. It seemed normal. Gays and lesbians having kids seemed normal. People fall in love some marry, some don't, some have kids and some don't. Women working any field seems normal.  Women becoming reverends and priests seems normal. Women presidents seems normal. African-Americans becoming president seemed normal. People of different backgrounds and religions seemed normal to me.  Its men and women doing normal things. I'm a Christian but also fascinated by different religions and cultures. I love reading about them from ancient religions and cultures to modern ones. Murder is wrong, abuse is wrong. I'm don't like adultery because I think its a crappy thing to of to the person your with and I've seen  a lot of fallout from it.

[Lurky]

Big love @KelseyAnn.

As an aside, it's really easy, as a born-and-bred atheist, to look at the different things that are Abominations in the Old Testament (wearing mixed fibres, tattoos, mean without beards) and the number of times homosexuality is mentioned, versus how much Jesus condemned money lenders/interest on loans/getting rich for money's sake, hypocrisy and people not being kind to each other, and wonder why on earth being gay is such a terrible thing, because you honestly wouldn't get that it was one of the major sins, reading the Bible cover to cover - or even if you picked up an average Book.  I am always interested in how Biblical literalism often seems to go hand-in-hand with picking which bits to prioritise.

[singsingsing]

I never realized I was liberal, either. I think I identify as moderate and will even say I have certain conservative leanings, because most of the people close to me are more liberal than I am (some much more liberal). I'm starting to realize, though, that that doesn't make me not liberal. My own personal decisions, actions, and attitudes in my own personal life are fairly moderate-conservative. But when I examine my social and political views, they're not extremely liberal, but they are liberal. Maybe I should start calling myself 'cautiously liberal' instead of moderate.

[AlwaysExcited]

9 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I personally believe that sin is something that separates you from God (or the higher power, the ideal, unconditional love, whatever you want to call it). I fail to see how loving another person, regardless of their sex or gender, does that. I'd say it does the opposite (as they say in Les Miserables, to love another person is to see the face of God). 

Ironically enough, my faith grew stronger once I managed to accept my bisexuality. 
Might be something to do with that I don't get anxious every time I see a church building anymore. Mostly. 

[Greendoor]

6 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

I actually just converted to atheism a few months ago. Therapy had helped me a lot to not fear that God was going to smite me for the smallest infractions, like not praying ardently enough, or the big ones either like thinking Mila Kunis was hot. 

Just a few weeks ago I actually gathered the courage to pick up "The God Delusion." Ever since then, I'm not afraid of God anymore. How can I fear what I believe doesn't exist?! If only I had read him sooner!

Life is much better since my conversion. I don't spend so much time wondering why it was God didn't help me away from my abusive family, and fearing that it was because I was born wicked. I no longer believe I'm inferior because I don't have a penis. I no longer fear and hate immigrants. 

It was awakening for me, and I hope, like you do, that other's like me can break free. 

 

I always think it's a shame that people blame God when they break free.

God was never the problem, it was the people who taught you such horrible ways of interpreting.  I am sorry that your family were cruel to you and that you have felt so much relief by leaving God rather than them.  Perhaps you could break on through to the other side of belief.  

I am a Anglican (Episcopalian in the US).  There are many Christian denominations that do not see God as a punishing parent.  I wish you peace and hope you find a spiritual home.    

 

 

[Carm_88]

17 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

I always think it's a shame that people blame God when they break free.

God was never the problem, it was the people who taught you such horrible ways of interpreting.  I am sorry that your family were cruel to you and that you have felt so much relief by leaving God rather than them.  Perhaps you could break on through to the other side of belief.  

I am a Anglican (Episcopalian in the US).  There are many Christian denominations that do not see God as a punishing parent.  I wish you peace and hope you find a spiritual home.    

There's nothing wrong with being an atheist. She said that she found peace now, leave her be in peace.  

[nastyhobbitses]

22 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

There's nothing wrong with being an atheist. She said that she found peace now, leave her be in peace.  

I'm aware of the irony when I say "amen". There's nothing wrong with having no "spiritual home" at all. There's nothing wrong with not believing. If being Christian or Buddhist or Shinto or Muslim gives you peace, great. If not believing in any deity at all does, that's great too. If you like doing rituals and participating in the teachings and culture but don't really believe in a higher power, that's OK too! But you're not broken or wrong if you don't believe, and you're certainly not amoral or evil just because you don't have a religion to tell you what your morals should or shouldn't be.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

There's little moments in my life that stand out amongst the rest. My best friend in high school was very effeminate and flamboyant. Even though he had a girlfriend, people called him gay. I didn't care about any of that. I just loved my best friend. Anyways, I was the first person he called after he told his mother he had broken up with his girlfriend... because he was gay. We just spent the evening talking and walking around downtown Des Moines.

And, that's when it happened. A group of idiot guys verbally harassed both of us as we were walking to our car. They eventually stopped bothering us, but as soon as we got to the parking lot, my friend collapsed in my arms and started sobbing. He said to me, "I hate when people say homosexuality is a choice. As if I would chose to be harassed like that just because of who I am. But, I refuse to hide my true self anymore. I can't live like that."

As a straight female, I'm not going to pretend like I know how hard it can be to come out, but that situation was still an eye-opener for me. I saw what it was like to be bullied just for existing as you are, and how traumatic the aftermath of that can be.

I had never really given it much thought, but it was that moment I realized homosexuality is not a choice. It's just the way God makes you, and God doesn't make mistakes. Even though I'm a hetero, I've never stopped waving that rainbow flag.

[feministxtian]

In my Catholic high school graduating class, there were 3 guys who were gay. One went whack-job fundamentalist to deny his true self, married and has a kid. Second guy tried to "straighten up", got married, had a kid, got divorced and went full bore orthodox Jew (yep, a Jewish guy in a Catholic high school), the third stayed true to himself. Of the three, two are also in bad health, the third is not (we're all within a couple years of each other age-wise). 

None of the three had a "choice" to be anything other than who  they were. One was able to accept himself, the other two weren't. I'm still friends with one of them, I consider him a true friend forever. The other two...I don't want anything to do with them...

My friend couldn't be straight anymore than I could be gay. It's just who we are. I don't see it as a "sin" or any of that other bullshit. I see it as nothing different than my own interesting brain wiring...that's just the way it is...in my case, people try to say I'm "disabled" (autism spectrum "disorder")...nope...it's who I am. Just like my friend...he is who he is. 

[Jilli]

My path in religion is currently leading me to Deism. I wasn't raised in a particularly religious house as both of my parents had developed problems with church. I did go to high school youth group and participated in events in college all of which I enjoyed but in the end I couldn't get past certain questions that nagged at me. I also developed somethings that hurt me that would be considered sins by my previous peers. From a therapist patient stand point I now know these things aren't my fault but with guilt it was an impossible thing to manage.

 

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, Fascinated said:

I have goosebumps!!!!  This makes me so happy!  You're exactly right. If there is no god, then all of this is complete and utter bullshit, right?  No self-respecting god would create you, only to have you suffer so.  It makes no sense.  I'm so glad you see it that way, and truly hope you are now able to live the life you deserve.  (Goosebumps, I tell you.) 

There can be God, yet all of this be utter bullshit. That's what I believe. 

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, Greendoor said:

I always think it's a shame that people blame God when they break free.

God was never the problem, it was the people who taught you such horrible ways of interpreting.  I am sorry that your family were cruel to you and that you have felt so much relief by leaving God rather than them.  Perhaps you could break on through to the other side of belief.  

Nope, God was the problem for me. Even when I tried a more kind, gentle, liberal version of God, it didn't work. The whole notion of God, even a liberal God is a problem for me.  

People who have left God behind don't need a spiritual home. I'm glad you found a God that gives you comfort, but please realize that many people cannot find comfort in any sort of God and only find peace when they leave God behind. 

[Fascinated]

9 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

There can be God, yet all of this be utter bullshit. That's what I believe. 

You're right, there can be.  But, it's clear that the teachings of the Bible have hurt countless people.  When you don't believe there is a god, this bullshit is completely absent.  There's nothing and no one to hold the threat of eternal damnation over you.  There's no higher being waiting to judge you for being gay.  There are just people doing that.  And most of those people do so because of the Bible and the religious teachings they receive(d).

[SilverBeach]

47 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

You're right, there can be.  But, it's clear that the teachings of the Bible have hurt countless people.  When you don't believe there is a god, this bullshit is completely absent.  There's nothing and no one to hold the threat of eternal damnation over you.  There's no higher being waiting to judge you for being gay.  There are just people doing that.  And most of those people do so because of the Bible and the religious teachings they receive(d).

I hear you. I don't conflate the bible with God. There is no higher being judging anybody for being gay. I reject anything that does not affirm the equal personhood of  gay people. My sister is gay, and the thought of her being unable to experience love the same way I do without running afoul of God pisses me off. It does cut to the chase to eliminate God which then frees you from all of it. But it isn't absolutely necessary to do so, and still be free. This is an important subject to me. Jesus had compassion and love for all, and the institutional church is sadly often lacking in both for non heterosexual people. For some reason, many church folks believe sexual orientation is a choice, although they didn't choose theirs! They refuse to believe actual gay people who know they were born the way they are! What arrogance! It infuriates me. 

I could go on but that's enough for now. I am so sorry for the hurt experienced at the hands of so-called godly people. They are so, so wrong.

[Fascinated]

I know from many of your posts that you feel this way, @SilverBeach.  I just wish everyone else did, too.  

[2manyKidzzz]

People ruin religion. And, where are the communities of faith that are really nonjudgmental. Just helpful. Help people in the community, people in a family where one is being deployed and the other has small children. Helping with illness. Making sure people have food and shelter. The rest has been made up by somebody. Usually males.