Counting On: Season 3, Part 5: Engagment on the Horizon

[Greendoor]

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Yep the angel Gabriel came to Mary and asked her, I believe. 

Gabriel said she the Lord was with her and she was blessed among women and proceed to tell what was to be.  Mary said Let it be.  All I know is I don't think I would have been chosen, must have been one very special girl.  

This goes with my previous caveat that religious works are to be interpreted and not taken literally.

[apandaaries]

3 hours ago, Greendoor said:

Gabriel said she the Lord was with her and she was  blessed among women and proceed to tell what was to be.  Mary said Let it be.  All I know is I don't think I would have been chosen, must have been one very special girl.

This goes with my previous caveat that religious works are to be interpreted and not taken literally.

According to some interpretations, she was made special order by God, arriving on earth without original sin.  'Twas supposed to be the only way she'd be pure enough to birth God's son. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I love this thread drift and love seeing that I'm not the only person who thinks the way I do.  I've come to the opinion that the bible is man made, written by men 100's of years after Christ to keep people under their power. I believe things were left out of Christs history because it didn't fit into their narrative. I think it is possible he was married and I believe he thought of women as more than vessels for breeding and here for the service of men. I don't think the earth was created in 6 literal days, considering that the way we keep time now is vastly different from how it was in Christs time. I have no fear of God, I take him as the compassionate loving God from the NT, We were given free will I don't think we are punished for being "sinners" on this earth, that judgement will be carried out later.  This is why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. I do think at times God will heal the sick, miracles do happen that can't be explained, why that person? We don't know but it happens. 

I loathe what evangelicals and the GOP have done to Christianity in America, they have corrupted it and made it about them and not Christ. I think since 1981 when Reagan took office they worked their way into churches and found a way to make sure that they had a solid base they made a political party a god. It was almost unheard of for someone to be a Christian & a liberal, though that is changing slowly now, as more people like me & a lot of others here get vocal about what has happened to our faith, I like to annoy conservatives sometimes by talking about Jesus vs right wing Jebus RW Jebus is an asshole, he likes money, and power and he thinks white men are the best and women are stupid whores. He thinks capitalism is the ultimate in faith and that brown people are scary lazy and a drain on government resources. They want no regulations on business but want to tell women & gays what they can and cannot do with their bodies and in their homes. The party of family values says unless you are rich your family needs to fuck off you aren't their problem. The "pro life" party worships guns & war. I can go on and on but I should stop, you get what I'm saying.

I'm just happy I found FJ, not just to feed my curiosity about the crazy Duggars but for the sense of normalcy I get from hearing from people who have similar views to me.

 

[Peabody Holmes Raptorsen]

On 3/23/2017 at 5:59 AM, Lurky said:

It never, ever stops hurting.  Equating the love I have for my partner to sins like lying, or drinking, that people can choose to do, and do once or twice, then get forgiven for, is just wrong.  I can't just stop being gay.

(Respectfully snipped for brevity)

Ugh, that was long.  But even reading how people justify their beliefs that I am less than them, abomination, sinful with every breath I take - that really, really hurts, on a level that's hard to explain.  Of course people like @grandmadugger have the right to believe it, and say it, and talk about their beliefs - and I'd never want it banned, or people to self-censor, if that's what they believe - BUT understand that it really, really hurts, even if you think you're being nice about it.

I have not read past this post so I apologize if I we are past this in the thread but I felt the need to say something and also back this up (although I'm sure you don't need my 2 cents here @Lurky, you've explained yourself excellently). I also apologize in advance for the language I'm bound to use in this post, this sort of thing tends to break my "keep-sweet meter". This is most definitely a rant and it is strongly worded. I will see myself to the prayer closet now.

@grandmadugger My wife is my soulmate, my best friend. I know that with the same knowledge that I know I hate bigotry disguised in the flowing cloak of G-d's words. Now, I grew up in an ultra chassidic sect of Judaism where anything outside of heterosexuality was unheard of. Even there being gay was not a sin (fun fact Jews don't have sin in the same way that Christians do and it REALLY boils my blood when people read the Old Testament and try to twist it to support their puritanical and intolerant beliefs by citing OT scripture to back up Christian concepts of sin). Ultimately the only sin was what we did to bring ourselves away from G-d. What scripture do you base your beliefs on about homosexuality? Leviticus? Noah? Those are the typical ones people hide behind to justify their homophobia. I'm curious which ones you cite. Are these your beliefs based upon your detailed and thorough study of scripture or is this what you've been told to believe? And if Jesus set you free of OT regulations as you say, then what NT scripture do you cite for this belief? Or did he set you free of everything except judgment of the gays?

My wife and I did not have sex before we were married because I was uncomfortable with it, not because I thought it made our relationship justifiable or morally better. Were we still sinners then? Or only after we consummated our relationship? What about our marriage? Is that a sin in your eyes @grandmadugger? Do you recognize it as valid? Are we fornicators as well as homosexuals in your interpretation of G-d's words?

If we met in real life would you be like her boss and refuse to refer to me as her wife? If I was your daughter, what would you have done when I came out to you? Would you have loved and accepted me or cast me out? Would you love my children with her as your own grandchildren even if she bears them? Would you extend Christ's love to me in the true meaning of that concept, not just saying that the government shouldn't interfere because you don't want them to interfere in your chosen vices? Right and wrong often have nothing to do with the government's laws. Should I have married the man my family arranged me to and pretended to love him and borne him children? Would living that lie be okay because I was living a heterosexual life? I wouldn't have been any less gay, just lying about it then.

See, my love, my marriage, my family, my relationship is not a vice. It does not separate me from G-d. In fact it brings me closer, so in going with the teaching of the Old Testament it is good not bad. Does your drinking bring you closer to G-d? What about your pork which you also mentioned? If yes then I congratulate you, if no then I suggest you take a look at that before you start comparing my relationship to it.

And to all the people who say that being gay is a choice, let's get one thing straight. Yes, I did choose to come out. I did NOT choose to be gay. I did not choose to fall in love with my wife, or the woman I loved before her. My relationship is no different than any heterosexual person's in a healthy relationship. It's 90% about friendship, intamacy, shared experiences, laughter, sadness, joy, respect, family, and 10% about sex, cause let's face it, I think my wife is the hottest thing ever and spooning leads to forking. My marriage is not the same as you "tying one on" on a Friday night. My marriage and my love should not just be not regulated by the government because you don't want them to regulate you or enforce another religion's laws on you. You using that as justification for your beliefs and seeming intolerance doesn't make you accepting, it makes you a homophobe hiding behind cherry-picked scripture, and frankly you seem to be missing the point of Christ's teachings.

[Italiangirl]

1 hour ago, Peabody Holmes Raptorsen said:

 Now, I grew up in an ultra chassidic sect of Judaism where anything outside of heterosexuality was unheard of. Even there being gay was not a sin (fun fact Jews don't have sin in the same way that Christians do and it REALLY boils my blood when people read the Old Testament and try to twist it to support their puritanical and intolerant beliefs by citing OT scripture to back up Christian concepts of sin). Ultimately the only sin was what we did to bring ourselves away from G-d. 

 

 

I'm always interest in learn more about the difference between judaism and chrystianity and other religion too, so can i ask you to explain me better this difference? Thank you 

 

[nssherlock]

23 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Dabadoochea! Keeyaa! Sooofleee! Um, dag dag.  

Oh, by the way, if you want to quote someone's post just hit the "Quote" button on the bottom right corner. Otherwise it kind of looks like you're talking to yourself, and you wouldn't want to babble drivel that is obviously nothing more than attention seeking nonsense, now, would you?

May Rufus bless you richly.

Thank you for that information about hitting quote - didn't realize that, just got here.

 

Also sorry to disturb so many people, didn't realize there are cliques on here who consider any challenge to their leghumping each other an insult.    Would not have expected that of a Duggar outing site.

 

Still don't have a definition of "spiritual" --------    honestly am just curious, not trying to destroy anyone's belief system, just seeking enlightenment.

The Rufus bit is just plain silly, but whatever -------

 

[Nikedagain?]

10 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I love this thread drift and love seeing that I'm not the only person who thinks the way I do.  I've come to the opinion that the bible is man made, written by men 100's of years after Christ to keep people under their power. I believe things were left out of Christs history because it didn't fit into their narrative. I think it is possible he was married and I believe he thought of women as more than vessels for breeding and here for the service of men. I don't think the earth was created in 6 literal days, considering that the way we keep time now is vastly different from how it was in Christs time. I have no fear of God, I take him as the compassionate loving God from the NT, We were given free will I don't think we are punished for being "sinners" on this earth, that judgement will be carried out later.  This is why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. I do think at times God will heal the sick, miracles do happen that can't be explained, why that person? We don't know but it happens. 

I loathe what evangelicals and the GOP have done to Christianity in America, they have corrupted it and made it about them and not Christ. I think since 1981 when Reagan took office they worked their way into churches and found a way to make sure that they had a solid base they made a political party a god. It was almost unheard of for someone to be a Christian & a liberal, though that is changing slowly now, as more people like me & a lot of others here get vocal about what has happened to our faith, I like to annoy conservatives sometimes by talking about Jesus vs right wing Jebus RW Jebus is an asshole, he likes money, and power and he thinks white men are the best and women are stupid whores. He thinks capitalism is the ultimate in faith and that brown people are scary lazy and a drain on government resources. They want no regulations on business but want to tell women & gays what they can and cannot do with their bodies and in their homes. The party of family values says unless you are rich your family needs to fuck off you aren't their problem. The "pro life" party worships guns & war. I can go on and on but I should stop, you get what I'm saying.

I'm just happy I found FJ, not just to feed my curiosity about the crazy Duggars but for the sense of normalcy I get from hearing from people who have similar views to me.

 

THISS! Sooo Bigly this!

You are my new bff. 

21 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

Thank you for that information about hitting quote - didn't realize that, just got here.

 

Also sorry to disturb so many people, didn't realize there are cliques on here who consider any challenge to their leghumping each other an insult.    Would not have expected that of a Duggar outing site.

 

Still don't have a definition of "spiritual" --------    honestly am just curious, not trying to destroy anyone's belief system, just seeking enlightenment.

The Rufus bit is just plain silly, but whatever -------

 

I like to believe that Rufus is enlightened and forgives you. 

[Carm_88]

23 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

Still don't have a definition of "spiritual" --------    honestly am just curious, not trying to destroy anyone's belief system, just seeking enlightenment.

"Spiritual but not religious" (SBNR) is a popular phrase and initialism used to self-identify a life stance of spirituality that takes issue with organized religion as the sole or most valuable means of furthering spiritual growth. Spirituality places an emphasis upon the well-being of the "mind-body-spirit", so "holistic" activities such as tai chi, reiki, and yoga are common within the SBNR movement.

[Destiny]

Too tired for many words after 27h day but if you want a rufus, find me something that makes sense and I'll add it.

....after I sleep

[singsingsing]

16 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

Thank you for that information about hitting quote - didn't realize that, just got here.

 

Also sorry to disturb so many people, didn't realize there are cliques on here who consider any challenge to their leghumping each other an insult.    Would not have expected that of a Duggar outing site.

 

Still don't have a definition of "spiritual" --------    honestly am just curious, not trying to destroy anyone's belief system, just seeking enlightenment.

The Rufus bit is just plain silly, but whatever -------

 

You're welcome! And welcome to FJ. I wish you the best of luck in navigating your disdain for everyone and everything on this forum. Sounds like you're having a pleasant experience here so far, so I can understand why you'd want to hang around.

It's sweet that you're just curious and seeking enlightenment, that definitely came across in your manner of expressing yourself. Unfortunately I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There are probably just as many definitions of "spiritual" as there are posters on this forum. I'd suggest you seek out a charming lady by the name of Leila over at a blog called Little Catholic Bubble. Her entire modus operandi is being "just curious" and "seeking enlightenment" as she "discusses" religion and atheism with her non-believing commenters. I really think the two of you could entertain each other for hours!

[just...sare]

On 3/23/2017 at 10:36 PM, CreationMuseumSeasonPass said:

Even though I'm a hetero, I've never stopped waving that rainbow flag.

Straight, but not narrow.

11 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

You're welcome! And welcome to FJ. I wish you the best of luck in navigating your disdain for everyone and everything on this forum. Sounds like you're having a pleasant experience here so far, so I can understand why you'd want to hang around.

It's sweet that you're just curious and seeking enlightenment, that definitely came across in your manner of expressing yourself. Unfortunately I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There are probably just as many definitions of "spiritual" as there are posters on this forum. I'd suggest you seek out a charming lady by the name of Leila over at a blog called Little Catholic Bubble. Her entire modus operandi is being "just curious" and "seeking enlightenment" as she "discusses" religion and atheism with her non-believing commenters. I really think the two of you could entertain each other for hours!

You regularly make me laugh, but this was...epic.

[nssherlock]

48 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

37 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

You're welcome! And welcome to FJ. I wish you the best of luck in navigating your disdain for everyone and everything on this forum. Sounds like you're having a pleasant experience here so far, so I can understand why you'd want to hang around.

It's sweet that you're just curious and seeking enlightenment, that definitely came across in your manner of expressing yourself. Unfortunately I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There are probably just as many definitions of "spiritual" as there are posters on this forum. I'd suggest you seek out a charming lady by the name of Leila over at a blog called Little Catholic Bubble. Her entire modus operandi is being "just curious" and "seeking enlightenment" as she "discusses" religion and atheism with her non-believing commenters. I really think the two of you could entertain each other for hours!

THISS! Sooo Bigly this!

You are my new bff. 

I like to believe that Rufus is enlightened and forgives you. 

Heavens -- MY disdain??????   You have a degree in snark, it's rather amusing.

Certainly not for everyone and anyone -- just smug pissants.

Not interested in catholic bubbles - whatever that may entail - but do appreciate very much the actual attempts at defining spiritual, thank you folks.

Love the interesting  attempts at communication instead of just slap downs by the entrenched posters who brook no deviant questions.

 

41 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

"Spiritual but not religious" (SBNR) is a popular phrase and initialism used to self-identify a life stance of spirituality that takes issue with organized religion as the sole or most valuable means of furthering spiritual growth. Spirituality places an emphasis upon the well-being of the "mind-body-spirit", so "holistic" activities such as tai chi, reiki, and yoga are common within the SBNR movement.

Thank you.   By that definition, spirituality is an attempt to circumvent religion while still being ---- religious???

[Carm_88]

5 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

Thank you.   By that definition, spirituality is an attempt to circumvent religion while still being ---- religious???

It's considered outside of organized religion, which is the point. Many people feel their personalities and beliefs don't line up with any particular organized religion. Yet they believe that there is some point to this life. So they have a sense o fthe divine but their idea of it does not line up or adhere to the beliefs of organized religion. 

[jas]

48 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Too tired for many words after 27h day but if you want a rufus, find me something that makes sense and I'll add it.

....after I sleep

What about this?

And I hope you get a decent sleep, sleep deprivation is a bitch.

 

[Queen]

On 25 mars 2017 at 5:46 PM, Meridae said:

It's been a very long time since my last theology class but I'm pretty sure she was asked...

According to the Bible translations I've read he merely sent an angel to tell her he had impregnated her with himself  He did not ask for consent! But it's very possible that there are several interpretations of this story. 

[Dandruff]

12 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I've come to the opinion that the bible is man made, written by men 100's of years after Christ to keep people under their power. I believe things were left out of Christs history because it didn't fit into their narrative. I think it is possible he was married and I believe he thought of women as more than vessels for breeding and here for the service of men.

We were having a very interesting discussion, awhile back, about Jesus' genome.  What do you get when you combine human female DNA with a deity?  I particularly wonder about his (presumed) Y chromosome and how "human" his children would have been.

[eleanora3]

10 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

We were having a very interesting discussion, awhile back, about Jesus' genome.  What do you get when you combine human female DNA with a deity?  I particularly wonder about his (presumed) Y chromosome and how "human" his children would have been.

I don't think Jesus is supposed to have any of Mary's DNA, is he? Christians believe he's all deity, and she just delivered him.

[sawasdee]

@nssherlock Yes, Rufus is just plain silly. Sometimes it helps to defuse anger to be 'just plain silly'. And sometimes it is just amusing to run with a silly idea.

I'm curious as to how much you read on FJ before joining? Didn't you realise that threaddrift and 'just plain silly' is part of life here? If you expected us to be serious and academic all the time ...... You're in the wrong place. Maybe you could find a more serious forum that suits you better? We enjoy the silliness on occasion!

And sometimes we deploy silliness as a weapon against ...trolls? Or against those who come in all guns blazing......

PS I am not a smug pissant...a smug retiree perhaps, but not pissant!

[formergothardite]

43 minutes ago, Queen said:

According to the Bible translations I've read he merely sent an angel to tell her he had impregnated her with himself  He did not ask for consent! But it's very possible that there are several interpretations of this story. 

That is pretty much how it seems to me. Mary seems to accept it after she is told the Holy Spirit is going to impregnate her, but there never seems to be a whole lot of asking. And if this story is to be taken literally, with the massive power dynamic going on, would she really feel like no was an option? Telling God no? 

11 minutes ago, eleanora3 said:

I don't think Jesus is supposed to have any of Mary's DNA, is he? Christians believe he's all deity, and she just delivered him.

He is supposed to be both God and man, so I would guess he would have Mary's DNA? 

[singsingsing]

20 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

We were having a very interesting discussion, awhile back, about Jesus' genome.  What do you get when you combine human female DNA with a deity?  I particularly wonder about his (presumed) Y chromosome and how "human" his children would have been.

Maybe a brand new Y chromosome was created just for him? God only knows (har har).

I personally think it's unlikely that Jesus was married and had children, but I don't think it's impossible. I respect John Shelby Spong a lot (retired very liberal Anglican bishop) and I think he's of the opinion that Jesus may have been married to Mary Magdalene. Jesus most definitely did not view women as mere vessels for breeding. He had a large number of female followers, Mary Magdalene most prominent among them, and it was his female followers who first proclaimed the resurrection. Even in Acts and the epistles, you see multiple women with extremely influential roles in the early church. I do believe that the New Testament was purposely crafted and edited to some extent to diminish the role of women and to express a much more patriarchal attitude in subsequent generations when it was finally being officially compiled. There are even scholars who believe that Paul's most anti-female sentiments (the ones about women staying silent in church. etc.) were not his own words but were inserted into his letters at a later date.

[sawasdee]

 

20 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

There are even scholars who believe that Paul's most anti-female sentiments (the ones about women staying silent in church. etc.) were not his own words but were inserted into his letters at a later date.

If you look at the history of the early church, what little information we have, this seems more than likely. Women were very important at the birth of christianity, but then steadily sidelined, and later demeaned, by successive councils. G-d, I hate St Augustine of Hyppo!

But there is a strong tradition, particularly in parts of southern France, that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and fathered children.Don't know about their human/divine DNA!

This tradition was very firmly crushed by the early church councils - along with interesting arguments about the true divinity of christ, and his humanity, the nature of the trinity, etc. The Pelagian so called heresy particularly intrigues me - it was held to in the British Isles, Pelagius' birthplace, particularly in Ireland, Scotland and Cornwall, for several centuries after it was called heresy by Rome.

The Sister Fidelma novels by Peter Tremayne dress up a lot of 6th century christian disputes, and chronicle the marginalisation of women by the Roman church, in the form of detective novels - the scholarship is heavily disguised - highly recommended - they have led me to a great deal of supplementary reading.

ETA I would call myself a Pelagian - that we are not born with mortal sin, and can gain salvation through making the choice to do good - if I were still a christian.

[Carm_88]

1 minute ago, sawasdee said:

 G-d, I hate St Augustine of Hyppo!

That man, grrrrr. I did a Medieval Studies course and we had to read Augustine's Confessions; it was either dry and horrible, or made me rage. 

[sawasdee]

Raging misogynist with a high sex drive.......

'Lord make me chaste but not yet!'

[feministxtian]

11 hours ago, Peabody Holmes Raptorsen said:

f we met in real life would you be like her boss and refuse to refer to me as her wife? If I was your daughter, what would you have done when I came out to you? Would you have loved and accepted me or cast me out? Would you love my children with her as your own grandchildren even if she bears them?

If you were my child, my friend, I would welcome you, your wife and your children. I would happily cuddle the babies, cook outrageous amounts of food, love both of you, post pictures on my FB of a gathering, brag like crazy over achievements and cute things. But, I'm like that...

[church_of_dog]

1 hour ago, jas said:

What about this?

And I hope you get a decent sleep, sleep deprivation is a bitch.

 

We do have this  although it's labelled a moose.  We also have another (and more mooselike, if you ask me) moose , so maybe that first one could just be re-labelled a deer for searching porpoises purposes?