Counting On: Season 3, Part 5: Engagment on the Horizon

[KelseyAnn]

19 hours ago, Greendoor said:

I always think it's a shame that people blame God when they break free.

God was never the problem, it was the people who taught you such horrible ways of interpreting.  I am sorry that your family were cruel to you and that you have felt so much relief by leaving God rather than them.  Perhaps you could break on through to the other side of belief.  

I am a Anglican (Episcopalian in the US).  There are many Christian denominations that do not see God as a punishing parent.  I wish you peace and hope you find a spiritual home.    

 

 

 

Well, if God left me in a house where I was sold out for drug money and treated like garbage, it kind of is his fault. 

[Carm_88]

Might I add, that you can be spiritual and not belong to any organized religion. You don't need to go to a religious building to seek peace and reflect. I do my best reflecting on the beach, listening to the waves roll in; that's a kind of peace that you don't find listening to someone preach fire and brimstone. 

[nssherlock]

Quite right Carm.

Need to add that religion is man made myth - no different from believing in unicorns or fairies in the garden.

One can be a decent human being, ethical, law abiding, respectful of others, without believing in some all powerful deity.   In fact, if one cares to study the history of religions, one sees that they are invented to take power and control others.  In no way does religion equate with decency.

 

More suffering, wars, persecution, torture, intolerance have been inflicted in the name of religion than any other reason.

 

Take charge of your actions, be a good person, it is on you, not some mythical, patriarchal deity.

 

It saddens me when I come here, hoping to find those who see the Duggars and their cult as the evil it is, and then get side tracked endlessly in discussing their particular version of that supreme being who knows all, sees all, and to whom we give up our autonomy and responsibility.

 

[Pasta]

@Carm_88 Are you me? Every time you post, I find myself nodding and saying same in my head.  I love watching the waves crash. I have videos of it on my phone just to calm myself. 

[Playagirl]

1 hour ago, Pasta said:

@Carm_88 Are you me? Every time you post, I find myself nodding and saying same in my head.  I love watching the waves crash. I have videos of it on my phone just to calm myself. 

Seriously! I can spend hours listening to waves, hence my username here on fj..

[Carm_88]

2 hours ago, Pasta said:

@Carm_88 Are you me? Every time you post, I find myself nodding and saying same in my head.  I love watching the waves crash. I have videos of it on my phone just to calm myself. 

Haha we are the same person . There's nothing like the waves to calm me, I have videos on my phone as well. There's something about the size and strength of the ocean, that will always make me calm and steady. 

[Pasta]

I love windy days in the city because the waves get so big they splash on to Lake Shore drive. I don't get to experience that much though. 

[LilMissMetaphor]

On 3/23/2017 at 2:39 PM, Lurky said:

Big love @KelseyAnn.

As an aside, it's really easy, as a born-and-bred atheist, to look at the different things that are Abominations in the Old Testament (wearing mixed fibres, tattoos, mean without beards) and the number of times homosexuality is mentioned, versus how much Jesus condemned money lenders/interest on loans/getting rich for money's sake, hypocrisy and people not being kind to each other, and wonder why on earth being gay is such a terrible thing, because you honestly wouldn't get that it was one of the major sins, reading the Bible cover to cover - or even if you picked up an average Book.  I am always interested in how Biblical literalism often seems to go hand-in-hand with picking which bits to prioritise.

Well, it's more important not to be a hypocrite, IMO, than to make sure your meat and your milk plates don't mix.

[Greendoor]

3 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Might I add, that you can be spiritual and not belong to any organized religion. You don't need to go to a religious building to seek peace and reflect. I do my best reflecting on the beach, listening to the waves roll in; that's a kind of peace that you don't find listening to someone preach fire and brimstone. 

I also like the mystery and immensity of the sea .  I enjoy my garden and bird song especially.  The beauty of sunrise is also something I enjoy although I am not dedicated to getting up early.

[nssherlock]

"Might I add, that you can be spiritual and not belong to any organized religion."

 

May I ask what I means to be "spiritual" and why is it better than being logical and dealing with reality?

How do you define "spiritual" as opposed to believing in a Deity?

One can admire nature - the sea, ones garden, the birds, etc. without labeling it "spiritual" --- yet some here laud themselves on being that more so than the rest of us mortals.

[singsingsing]

12 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

"Might I add, that you can be spiritual and not belong to any organized religion."

 

May I ask what I means to be "spiritual" and why is it better than being logical and dealing with reality?

How do you define "spiritual" as opposed to believing in a Deity?

One can admire nature - the sea, ones garden, the birds, etc. without labeling it "spiritual" --- yet some here laud themselves on being that more so than the rest of us mortals.

What an incredibly judgmental, narrow minded and ignorant statement. Guess what? Free Jinger is full of people who describe themselves as spiritual and/or religious. There are also a fair few atheists and agnostics here. Discussions surrounding our beliefs or lack thereof have in the past been remarkably civil, so I'm not sure why there's been a sudden influx of newer posters, both religious and non-religious, in the past couple days feeling the need to lecture huge swathes of us for believing or disbelieving the wrong things. Leave that shit to the fundies. My personal spiritual beliefs and how they impact my life has no effect on you whatsoever. Kindly fuck off with this patronizing bullshit.

[nssherlock]

Ah Virgin ------ you have managed to call me names, insult me, and just generally go off on me, BUT you have completely ignored my question.

 

A prime example of "spiritual" and ever so much better than the rest.   Your vaunted spirituality has certainly not brought you peace or calm.

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

Ah Virgin ------ you have managed to call me names, insult me, and just generally go off on me, BUT you have completely ignored my question.

 

A prime example of "spiritual" and ever so much better than the rest.   Your vaunted spirituality has certainly not brought you peace or calm.

I never said I was spiritual, on the contrary, I define myself as loosely Catholic. I said that people can be spiritual without believing in any sort of organized religion. I personally don't care if someone worships the cycles of the moon and believes that they are a unicorn; if they don't scoff at my beliefs, I will never make fun of theirs. 

That's how you get through this life by being a decent human being, you should try it.  

[Chicken bones]

7 hours ago, nssherlock said:

One can be a decent human being, ethical, law abiding, respectful of others, without believing in some all powerful deity.   In fact, if one cares to study the history of religions, one sees that they are invented to take power and control others.  In no way does religion equate with decency.

More suffering, wars, persecution, torture, intolerance have been inflicted in the name of religion than any other reason.

 

Personally, these are my beliefs to a T. I have religious in laws who just cant believe you can raise ethical and moral children without Christianity and it drives me bonkers.

However, i dont agree that most people on here are flaunting their spirituality; and discussing these things is a part of the board culture. That's the cool part of this place and i have learned so much.

[singsingsing]

11 minutes ago, nssherlock said:

Ah Virgin ------ you have managed to call me names, insult me, and just generally go off on me, BUT you have completely ignored my question.

 

A prime example of "spiritual" and ever so much better than the rest.   Your vaunted spirituality has certainly not brought you peace or calm.

First of all, it's extremely rude of you to refer to me as 'Virgin'. To be respectful in the future, please refer to me by my full ceremonial title, "Virgin Who Can't Drive."

Second of all, peace and calm? Perish the thought! I worship Mars, god of war. And Thor (but only on Thursdays, naturally). I would consider myself a spiritual failure if I ever fell below a certain threshold of rage.

[RosyDaisy]

I just wanted to chime in and say that some of the most moral and ethical people I know are atheists.

[feministxtian]

ya know...one of the things I like about FJ is the variety of beliefs, ideas, opinions that are expressed here. Some I agree with, some I don't. HOWEVER...I see no reason to take anyone to task about their belief or lack thereof. I have stated that I am a Christian, I attend a fundamentalist church...BUT I sure as hell ain't gonna stand here and spout my beliefs or tell anyone they're wrong. If someone asks me why I am a Christian, or why I attend a fundamentalist church, I'll be happy to talk. Until then...I keep that gaping hole under my nose shut (on that topic). 

So...for those of y'all who have left religion...I know you put a lot of thought into it and some of you have lost family and friends over it. For that I'm sorry that people could be so shitty as to cut you off because you chose a different path. Everyone must chose their own path in life. We all have different paths to walk to stay true to ourselves. Tell ya what...you walk your path and I'll walk my path and we'll be friends on the journey. I promise not to say anything ugly or disparaging (and if I do, please call me out). We ALL have something to learn from each other...

Now...I'll break my promise for just a second...in my beliefs...the greatest thing I can do is LOVE others. So...that is what I shall do. Hope y'all don't mind. 

[singsingsing]

I've spent a great deal of time with religious and non-religious people alike, and I've never noticed a significant difference in their ethical behaviour. I was raised in a fairly secular environment by non-religious parents and would describe myself as non-religious today. The idea that you need to believe in God to do the right thing has always been both laughable and disturbing to me, as has the notion that you can't be 'spiritual' and 'rational' at the same time. If not for God, you would kill, steal, cheat and lie? Isaac Newton and Francis Bacon were incapable of logic and reason? Really?

[SilverBeach]

6 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

 The idea that you need to believe in God to do the right thing has always been both laughable and disturbing to me.

If not for God, you would kill, steal, cheat and lie? 

I have never believed either of these things. Decent people are in all religions, or none. But there is nothing wrong with any belief system promoting loving treatment of your fellow man. It certainly can't hurt.

[Greendoor]

12 hours ago, nssherlock said:

"Might I add, that you can be spiritual and not belong to any organized religion."

 

May I ask what I means to be "spiritual" and why is it better than being logical and dealing with reality?

How do you define "spiritual" as opposed to believing in a Deity?

One can admire nature - the sea, ones garden, the birds, etc. without labeling it "spiritual" --- yet some here laud themselves on being that more so than the rest of us mortals.

I think the main difference is for those who grew up Fundie or with a punishing God, the only way they can feel peace is to call it Spirituality.

Those who grow up believing that God is a way of life, not a Being so much, see our spirit as being at one with God. 

Either way, we can feel peace, recognize beauty, and love one another.

Hopefully offending no one, I will sign this off, Namesta

[seraaa]

On 3/24/2017 at 2:09 AM, nastyhobbitses said:

I'm aware of the irony when I say "amen". There's nothing wrong with having no "spiritual home" at all. There's nothing wrong with not believing. If being Christian or Buddhist or Shinto or Muslim gives you peace, great. If not believing in any deity at all does, that's great too. If you like doing rituals and participating in the teachings and culture but don't really believe in a higher power, that's OK too! But you're not broken or wrong if you don't believe, and you're certainly not amoral or evil just because you don't have a religion to tell you what your morals should or shouldn't be.

This is totally me, except I'm probably agnostic as opposed to an out-and-out atheist. Even if I had strong feelings about it, which I don't, how can we ever know for sure? We can't.

Then I wonder if believing that we can't know actually makes me an atheist, as I lack the faith religious people do.  I believe that Jesus said many things that are good and true, but I what I can't do is extend that positive regard to accept that he died and then rose again in order to heal the rift between humanity and God (and believing in this is kind of crucial to being a Catholic). If I were to believe in anything, it would probably be in a generic higher power and not in  a particular religion.

On the other hand, if I had been brought up Duggar-style instead of as a Catholic with fairly liberal parents, I could see myself being very religious. The strong narrative and structured sense of purpose resonate with parts of my personality. 

Church-as-community was always the most appealing part of it, to me. 

[SilverBeach]

3 minutes ago, seraaa said:

 

Church-as-community was always the most appealing part of it, to me. 

The UUs accept agnostics and atheists, and I think the sense of non judgemental community is part of the appeal. 

[seraaa]

4 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

The UUs accept agnostics and atheists, and I think the sense of non judgemental community is part of the appeal. 

Yes! I have always liked the sound of them

[Cat Damon]

Religion is so weird to me- I am a lapsed Catholic, and I went to a Catholic grade school and high school. My school was rather liberal (which I'm realizing way later), because I remember my senior year religion teacher telling us that he didn't believe in a god that would send anyone to hell- if he loved us like we were promised, wouldn't he forgive us no matter what (like our parents did) and want us to be happy? I wonder what the Duggars would think of my old teacher's thoughts.

He was a wonderful teacher.

[potato]

5 hours ago, Pasta said:

 

I love windy days in the city because the waves get so big they splash on to Lake Shore drive. I don't get to experience that much though. 

 

I just drove down (and back up) Lake Shore Drive today!  Unfortunately, I had to focus on driving, but I got to sit on a beach for a while afterwards