The Boyer Sisters, Part 2

[FleeJanaFree]

I'm at work so don't have time for a long reply here- but thanks @Gabe for answering questions. As far as I know, I don't know any 'fundies'  in real life. We do have several ex fundies on FJ, but I enjoy talking to someone presently in the fold, to get a feel for whats now mainstream or acceptable, etc. As usual, I liked some of the answers, was surprised by some, and didn't like a few. In particular, I felt the bachelor degree answer was a deflection. How would Brigid (or gabe) ever realistically  hope to get a bachelors degree without going at least partially into debt? To me that was Gabe saying "yeah,right, suuuuure she can" 

 

I will check in on the thread later!

[just_ordinary]

I read Gabe's and all of our posts with great interest. And now, I have some questions to you fellow freejingers

1. Are we sure it is the real Gabe?

2. Is it smart to jump on those people like that? Some people mentioned it being nicer than with others but I read a handful of posts that would have made me leaving. Don't get me wrong, you raised good, legit and important questions. I just hoped we would try to lurk fundies in and then somehow deprogramm them with our intelligent discussion (might be quite unrealistic- if that would work there would be no jerks in the world anymore). I liked the questions of the posters who asked how he decides which bible passages are still to be applied and which not. Did he even think about it himself or is he just following someone's interpretation? How does he know he is not falling for a "false prophet"? How does defend his interpretation from picking only what is convenient? Does he think he has to be the spiritual leader of his household? If so, how does he make sure he as an educated (as in thinking about different interpretations and finally  choosing one based on legit arguments) approach.

3. Why do you even get upset about the gay question? His answer is as sad as it was predictable. People are allowed to believe what they want. I only get pissed when they actively try to limit the freedom of others without need (bad example but should do: pass a test before you drive as you could harm others or yourself is limiting access to driving but totally legit- gay marriage on the civil level is not harming anyone involved in this relationship (if the couple) so there is no reason to do something against it). I know I am on a fine line here. Of course I think my ideas of equality, freedom etc. are the better (not right) ones but then I know that there are legit reasons to believe all sort of things so it is hard to tell what is truly right (can you tell my philosophy degree messed with my head- no black and white anymore only greys). It will be interesting if someone close to them identifies as gay. Hopefully he will remember, there are other points of view on that topic and think again. 

We all snark on them because we believe their way of living is harmful to children and we are against them gaining political power to dictate how everyone should live their life. We kind of know their general mindset on homeschooling, sexuality, gender roles etc. Gabe's answers were partly much better than I would have hoped. 

[ladyamylynn]

@snarkysally @scozzle Are you guys disputing the fact that there are gay xtians, or that the Abrahamic religions worship the same god? 

[VooDooChild]

10 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

My DD would love this! I'm going to think outside the box this year, I'm turkeyed out.

Go for it!  Despite their grousing about not having turkey, my family really enjoyed it and they now look forward to it every year.

[Palimpsest]

15 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I also wonder what people are making for Christmas dinner.

It's a ham year (Mr. P's family tradition) with cauliflower au gratin for me.  We alternate ham, prime rib, and Cornish Game hens (my favorite).

On Christmas eve we eat seafood.  Enough appetizers for a meal only these days, but when we used to have a lot more guests I made bouillabaisse.

[DaisyD]

18 minutes ago, VooDooChild said:

I got tired of making turkey for Thanksgiving, then again for Christmas (nobody but I likes ham).  So about 8 years ago I began making cheese enchiladas - a pan with red sauce and a pan with green sauce -, rice and beans.  We eat our dinner on Christmas eve and Christmas day is breakfast casserole, potato casserole, snacks, and leftovers.   

Growing up in New Mexico, this was standard holiday fare. Well, maybe not the pan of red. We put green chillies on everything. 

8 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

3. Why do you even get upset about the gay question? His answer is as sad as it was predictable. People are allowed to believe what they want. I only get pissed when they actively try to limit the freedom of others *snip*

This is where I come down on most things. People are allowed to believe whatever they want. They are NOT allowed to pass laws that attempt to tell me what to believe when those laws infringe on other people's rights. That's the separation of church and state that makes our country free. I don't care if Gabe doesn't believe in homosexuality. It doesn't effect my life. Just like a gay couple getting married doesn't effect my life, or marriage. Churches are free to say that gay marriage is against their beliefs. The government is not. As long as the government is involved in marriage, they have to keep it equal.

[wikinggirl]

32 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I also wonder what people are making for Christmas dinner.

We have steak on Christmas Eve, mostly because my family isn't a fan of the traditional christmas food (it's a lot of sausages, pork ribs or dried mutton ribs). And we always eat rice porridge for lunch with butter, cinnamon and sugar on... mmm! (and there's a hidden almond in the porridge, and whoever finds it get's a marzipan pig)

[MargaretElliott]

39 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I also wonder what people are making for Christmas dinner.

I love baking, so I'm going to attempt a Buche de Noel this year, with meringue mushrooms and chocolate bark. If that ends in catastrophe and tears (which it very well might), clementine tart is a nice winter fruit option (I made this one today...)

Spoiler

The Boyer sisters are quite accomplished with other traditional feminine arts, like sewing and knitting and the like. I wonder if that skill extends into the kitchen? We snark on other fundie families (cough Duggars) for being inept homemakers when they tout the whole women-belong-at-home ideal.

If there's a food post on their blog between now and Christmas, I want to take credit for inspiring it 

[dramallama]

18 minutes ago, DaisyD said:

This is where I come down on most things. People are allowed to believe whatever they want. They are NOT allowed to pass laws that attempt to tell me what to believe when those laws infringe on other people's rights. That's the separation of church and state that makes our country free. I don't care if Gabe doesn't believe in homosexuality. It doesn't effect my life. Just like a gay couple getting married doesn't effect my life, or marriage. Churches are free to say that gay marriage is against their beliefs. The government is not. As long as the government is involved in marriage, they have to keep it equal.

Personally, I consider voting for candidates who run on a platform against equality to be "actively try(ing) to limit the freedom of others".  Gabe hasn't said how he votes, but we do know the Boyers are Trump supporters, so...

[SilverBeach]

@just_ordinary, we can't be sure that anybody is who they say they are, Al Wilson notwithstanding.

I don't think Gabe was jumped on, but he hasn't been given special treatment either. Kitchen, heat, etc.

Unfortunately, in this case I think the fundie is trying to deprogram FJ! Yes, helping a fundie open their mind would be a fabulous outcome for FJ. And maybe some are, who are reading, lurking, and not saying anything. The most deeply of the brainwashed tend to want to interact with us though, and deprogramming them would be a monumental task. I would appreciate a good-faith, no platitudes discussion of issues, but it's not happening here.

I'm plain vanilla hetero but I feel very strongly about misrepresentation of the faith against those who are different than me. So yeah, homophobia should be called out wherever it is found.

[snarkysally]

53 minutes ago, FleeJanaFree said:

I'm at work so don't have time for a long reply here- but thanks @Gabe for answering questions. As far as I know, I don't know any 'fundies'  in real life. We do have several ex fundies on FJ, but I enjoy talking to someone presently in the fold, to get a feel for whats now mainstream or acceptable, etc. As usual, I liked some of the answers, was surprised by some, and didn't like a few. In particular, I felt the bachelor degree answer was a deflection. How would Brigid (or gabe) ever realistically  hope to get a bachelors degree without going at least partially into debt? To me that was Gabe saying "yeah,right, suuuuure she can" 

 

I will check in on the thread later!

I don't think it was a deflection at all. It's totally possible to get a degree without debt. It takes hard work, but it's possible. I got my bachelor's degree through merit scholarships, completely debt free. I've known of others who stretched it out a bit to make it more affordable.

 It saddens me that our high school kids are taught (1) that college is the be-all-end-all of education and is "necessary" for a decent job or living, and (2) that it can't be achieved without debt. More young adults than ever are starting out tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars in debt and it really doesn't have to be that way.

53 minutes ago, ladyamylynn said:

@snarkysally @scozzle Are you guys disputing the fact that there are gay xtians, or that the Abrahamic religions worship the same god? 

My thoughts concerning gay christians. Yes, I believe that there can be gay Christians. Just as there can be Christians who struggle with other types of sin.

However, I believe that the only god-honoring sexual relationship is between one man and one woman within the covenant of marriage. So, I believe that someone who struggles with same-sex attraction should be celibate in the same way that I believe an unmarried person who struggles with lustful thoughts toward anyone should be celibate, and the way I believe that a married person with attraction to someone other than their spouse should deny that attraction. To me, those are all similar sins involving sexual immorality.

Could you clarify the second question?

[DaisyD]

Where, in the New Testament, does it say that same gender sex is a sin? Unless you also strive to live by all of the Old Testament laws. (BTW, I don't interpret anything in the bible, old or new as saying that it's a sin.)

[Palimpsest]

43 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

1. Are we sure it is the real Gabe?

What do you think?  This was asked before and my answer hasn't changed.  I think so on the strength of his responses to the Scottish Highland dress and the specific difficulties of sewing cotton velveteen.  AFAIK, he didn't ask to be verified - but believe him at your own risk.

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2. Is it smart to jump on those people like that? Some people mentioned it being nicer than with others but I read a handful of posts that would have made me leaving.

 

He wasn't jumped on at first.  He was certainly asked a lot of questions.  He was jumped on when he tried to set his own rules.  He appeared to leave and we discussed him.  Then he came back with some answers and was asked to explain them. Can you specify the posts that you felt were over the top?

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Don't get me wrong, you raised good, legit and important questions. I just hoped we would try to lurk fundies in and then somehow deprogramm them with our intelligent discussion (might be quite unrealistic-

I think you mean "lure."  No, I don't think we try to lure Fundies in - nor should we.  Love bombing is what Co$ does - for nefarious reasons.  I don't think we will ever "deprogram" anyone on an internet forum.  We "might" make them think a little, that's all.  

Sometimes Fundies come here to try to explain themselves, yell at us, or sell us stuff.  It is our turf and we don't have to be nice to them.  We are all individuals.  I think Gabe was quite rude, and got ruder as time went on.  Can you point to any place where he was respectful of our opinions (unless it concerned Highland dress).

51 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Did he even think about it himself or is he just following someone's interpretation? How does he know he is not falling for a "false prophet"? How does defend his interpretation from picking only what is convenient? Does he think he has to be the spiritual leader of his household? If so, how does he make sure he as an educated (as in thinking about different interpretations and finally  choosing one based on legit arguments) approach.

All good questions - for Gabe.

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3. Why do you even get upset about the gay question?

I detest homophobia.  Was I upset by Gabe's response?  No, it was utterly predictable from someone of his background.  His attitude I find poisonous.

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

Gabe's answers were partly much better than I would have hoped. 

Not all Fundies come over as obviously hateful.  Actually the ones who have a mask of sounding reasonable and likable may be more dangerous in th elong run.  You have to look for the weasel words - and they were there all over what Gabe wrote.

[vspielman]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

I also wonder what people are making for Christmas dinner.

This is our first Christmas without my Dad (he passed away on September 15), so it's been 47 years since my Mom has cooked something other than what my Dad wanted to eat.  (I'm back and forth between homes right now. She's 83 and alone.) Last week she asked me what I wanted for Christmas dinner.  I answered "what do YOU want to eat, Mom? You decide what you would like and I'll cook it for you.  Anything you want."  She sat quiet and thought for a few minutes, then said "I'd really love to have roast beef.  And carrots.  And potatoes in the oven with butter and parsley."  So that is our Christmas dinner this year.

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, vspielman said:

This is our first Christmas without my Dad (he passed away on September 15), so it's been 47 years since my Mom has cooked something other than what my Dad wanted to eat.  (I'm back and forth between homes right now. She's 83 and alone.) Last week she asked me what I wanted for Christmas dinner.  I answered "what do YOU want to eat, Mom? You decide what you would like and I'll cook it for you.  Anything you want."  She sat quiet and thought for a few minutes, then said "I'd really love to have roast beef.  And carrots.  And potatoes in the oven with butter and parsley."  So that is our Christmas dinner this year.

I am so so sorry about the recent loss of your father. And making what your mom wants to eat is the best gift ever! So sweet, you are an awesome daughter.

[FlamingFundie]

Christmas Eve supper will be leftovers from the Bob Evans Farmhouse Feast I plan to order for Christmas Eve lunch.  Turkey breast, chicken tenders, corn, beans, rolls....

While I spend a great deal of my time cooking as much from scratch as I possibly can, I give myself a pass for Christmas Day. It's the only day that I unabashedly buy refrigerated cans of cinnamon rolls, pre-packaged skillet meals, and any manner of chocolate desserts from the grocery bakery as I possibly can fit in my budget. We have the rest of the year to make up for the artificial flavors and preservatives we consume on Christmas.

[ladyamylynn]

@snarkysally I was wondering which part of my statement you disagreed with. Thanks for confirming that you're a homophobe! 

FYI, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same god. More info can be found here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

[JermajestyDuggar]

I get a "mansplaining" vibe from Gabe's posts but I will try not to hold it against him. Because from what I've witnessed and what I know about fundie beliefs, I would guess that mansplaining is actually just a normal way of talking for men in their community.

[ViolaSebastian]

28 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I get a "mansplaining" vibe from Gabe's posts but I will try not to hold it against him. Because from what I've witnessed and what I know about fundie beliefs, I would guess that mansplaining is actually just a normal way of talking for men in their community.

I was thinking this same thing. He can swear up and down that the whole rules fiasco wasn't about control, but I honestly don't think he's self-aware enough to realize the dynamics of his behavior. A lot of it is age, too, he's what, 25?

[desertvixen]

@nausicaa, mix metallics away!  That's a gorgeous dress.

@vspielman, that's really lovely.

My husband and I have started a tradition (this will be year 2) of doing a fancy dinner near Christmas while my daughter is visiting her father.  Last year we made a yummy lamb chops and garlic dish.  Not sure what we're making this year, but it's going to involve Cornish game hens.  Any suggestions?

For the day itself, it's ham.  Because I love ham leftovers.

 

[FlamingFundie]

1 minute ago, desertvixen said:

For the day itself, it's ham.  Because I love ham leftovers.

 

Speaking of ham leftovers---- I MUCH prefer my ham be cooked then chilled before eating. I don't like hot ham. So ham leftovers fresh fro the fridge sound delightful!

[ladyamylynn]

2 minutes ago, desertvixen said:

@nausicaa, mix metallics away!  That's a gorgeous dress.

@vspielman, that's really lovely.

My husband and I have started a tradition (this will be year 2) of doing a fancy dinner near Christmas while my daughter is visiting her father.  Last year we made a yummy lamb chops and garlic dish.  Not sure what we're making this year, but it's going to involve Cornish game hens.  Any suggestions?

For the day itself, it's ham.  Because I love ham leftovers.

 

I like to stuff game hens with a sausage and breadcrumb stuffing and pan roast them, then serve with wild rice risotto and a nice wine and cherry pan sauce.

[FleeJanaFree]

1 hour ago, snarkysally said:

I don't think it was a deflection at all. It's totally possible to get a degree without debt. It takes hard work, but it's possible. I got my bachelor's degree through merit scholarships, completely debt free. I've known of others who stretched it out a bit to make it more affordable.

 

 

Schoalarships would have to play a huge role in it. It took me FIVE years to get my degree working 30-40 hours a week, my parents chipping in a thousand a year, and living rent free for the majority of it. I probably got under $1,000 schoalarshipnoverall.  I still needed to borrow $6,000.

[Palimpsest]

16 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I was thinking this same thing. He can swear up and down that the whole rules fiasco wasn't about control, but I honestly don't think he's self-aware enough to realize how the dynamics of his behavior. A lot of it is age, too, he's what, 25?

Yeah, I'm really tired of giving Fundie males a break just because they take us on.  And for their mansplaining and control attempts 'cos they supposedly know no better.  It is what it is and needs to be called out.  Otherwise how will they know their patriarchal attitudes and mansplaining don't play well in the real world.

We have several >25 year old members on FJ who show more maturity and better ability to discuss things than Gabe has demonstrated so far.  

Come to think of it, I don't know @CyborgKin's exact age, but he could give Gabe a few pointers on discussion and debate - and from a Fundie background too.  

[dramallama]

We go pretty casual at Christmas.  We'll probably graze throughout the day on cold ham (I agree, cold ham = best ham), my mom's sausage rolls, mini quiche, and whatever other finger foods and decadent confections jump out at me when I inevitably go hungry-shopping at Costco the weekend before.