Black Lives Matter

[Sabine]

14 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think the point trying to be made is that police brutality  is not just about a “a few bad apples” but a whole system (originated in slavery days & in conflict with Native Americans ) which often serves to terrorize and brutalize minorities, particularly black people. It’s not even only an American problem. 
 

The argument becomes baseless the second you start speaking of “good“and „bad“ cops. That’s not even the point. It’s the system.  

Personally I don’t believe the system is broken at all. This is one of its key features. At the very least, it needs serious reform. 
 

 

The thing with rotten apples is simple, leave them in the basket and in a few days all your apples are rotten and moldy. So really there is only one thing to do, if you have a rotten apple or two in your basket you will need to throw them out. Then you remove all the other apples and wash them thoroughly with water to remove any of the mold spores, then you dry the apples so as to make sure no moisture is left behind to promote mold growth. Then you take the basket and wash it with bleach, dry it and then put in your clean apples. And then you check every day to make sure it does not start again. You do however not leave the apples in the basket and say ' Oh its just a rotten apple, not all apples'. As for those of us that want to believe that what happens to people of color, or people of non straight sexual identify, or of non male white gender, or of non 'normal' mental behavior is just the work of 'rotten apples' then you need to check out how much your town, your state pays out in damages to people every year that had their relatives killed for not obeying fast enough, for playing with a toy gun in a play ground as a kid, for being a black gentlemen in his house that a white female cop mistakes for her own house etc etc etc. The shit that cops in the US pull against the citizens of their own country, their own towns is nothing short of spectacular and i can't think of anything worse then ever having to call a cop for help. Fact, if i were to live in the US i would never - NEVER - call the cops for anything. 

[ALM7]

:my bold on below posts:

On 5/30/2020 at 4:47 PM, llg1234 said:

Decent human beings don't become cops, I'm sure they are more concerned about the loss of property rather than loss of life.

My question to you is not personal, I simply ask what you have in mind as an alternative?   Military control of our communities, how well has that worked out in other counties?  Neighborhood watches that respond to 911, will these watches respond to armed break-ins, secure a scene properly if one is raped?  De-escalate a domestic violence situation properly, or will a child/wife/husband/partner end up dead. 

20 hours ago, llg1234 said:

 

If you decide to become a cop, you're enforcing the status-quo, and by extension white supremacy. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Imagine being so tone deaf with everything going to try and argue ~~not all cops~~ Couldn't be me. Especially after being tear gassed at a peaceful protest in an area where we were passing out water and administrating first aid. 

Or imagine this ... Going about ones own business on 4-19-95, and waking up to a life that will never be the same, all the operations in the world will never restore my life as I knew it one second earlier.  Do I blame all ex-military?  Do I blame all that hold political views opposed to mine?  Do I blame all individual FBI agents on how our government has handled Ruby Ridge, Waco etc.?  No, I do not.  However; I do place blame where it belongs, through-out many varied segments of society/politics.  Rather than advocating for the complete deconstruction of society, I choose to advocate for change, where change is necessary. 

18 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

They won't. Because police protect their own. As long as they continue to escape justice, there are no good police. 

What a simplistic view.  I'm assuming you will not be calling 911, considering there are no good police, wouldn't want you to be subjected to assistance in your black and white world. Most of us realize there is a gray scale between black and white.  Good luck in a real emergency.

18 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

I haven't seen a single cop join a protest in solidarity. I have, however, seen a policeman start shit, saw a person run over by a horse, saw an elderly man with a can jumped, saw peaceful protesters teargassed. Police protect their own. That's why they so often escape charges. This is not the time to be "not all cops." Because it IS all cops. They have a brotherhood and they do not care about you. Even if one particular "friend" is "OK" you still need to protect yourself, because they will sell you out in an instant for a promotion or money, or to protect the brotherhood. 

And the Supreme Court gives them the leeway. The POLICE DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANY OF US. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

Yes, most of us following this have seen these incidences, and yes those actions are inexcusable. 

We have a right to protest, period.  We do not have the right to riot, destroy others property, or injure peaceful protesters, or those trying to get to and from work, we are in the middle of a pandemic, I hope the medical/support personnel safely arrived to their destination.  I imagine all those bad cops tried to help, and protect them on their way to work.

18 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

It's a job, and part of the job is to protect other police. Until every single murderer is brought to justice, and the remaining ones drop the military grade shit, they all are at fault. No amount of lip service will change that.

We don't even know if those are actual police, or just people wearing police costumes. Normally, police are not allowed to express political opinions or join in marches in uniforms.  

The worship of police and military in this country is out of control. And those who excuse it with "not all cops" are basically saying "black lives don't matter." 

 

Yup, that's it, fake cops, it's a conspiracy.

Black lives do matter, how arrogant to suggest those of us that choose not to damn all law enforcement to hell think other-wise. smh

17 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

I do know for a fact that they are real cops. The top is the chief of police. 
 

I don’t think anyone here is saying that black lives don’t matter. What I am saying is hatred for an entire section of the population is dangerous and does nothing to solve the problem. It just causes more division and problems. 
 

The problem is racism is running rampant in this country. Neo-Nazis have gained power.  The president supports the new-nazis. They have imported rioters to drown out the very important message of the protesters. We need real leadership. Not a so called leader who incites violence and encourages racism. 

This @grandmadugger, so much this.

17 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

Why do you think they police don't break up the neo-nazi/KKK rallys? Because the police are neo-nazis and KKK members. The police in this country are corrupt and above the law. Every. Single. One. 

So do the police.  Not a hard concept. The ones that aren't actively kneeling on a  person's neck over $20 are still there, not helping. The ones that watch as cops rape vulnerable women are still getting paid, while they are silent. The ones that look away while one person hurts another person under the guise of "safety" or the police officer that ran a car into a group of protesters today in new york - all "doing their jobs" all doing their jobs in an immoral and unethical fashion. 

 

 

I personally find white supremacist vile, scum of the earth.  However; we do have a Supreme Court that has ruled they have a right to spew their hate.   

2 hours ago, LacyMay said:

I started responding in the BLM thread but was having a hard time summarizing what was going on here for context... And I was afraid of hijacking another thread. And I'm a little concerned that a thread about BLM might not be the best place to discuss policing because I can see this being a triggering topic for some (especially POC) 

This topic has been niggling at me for years. Because I want to be an ally but I don't think dismissing the entire policing system as needing to be destroyed and dismantled is going to solve anything. What's the alternative to not fixing the system and just burning it down? Anarchy? Thanks. I'll pass. I think a shift towards more community policing could be beneficial (ie the Shonrim Jewish police force who are unarmed and can't make arrests but can diffuse situations at a community level) 

One thing that really frustrates me is so much anti police sentiment that I see comes from upper middle class white allies who have never needed the police. I wonder if maybe there's a type of privilege that comes from never having to be in a situation where you've needed the policing system. Like @EmmieJ I've been in situations where I've needed the police (my mom was in an abusive relationship when I was younger and I had to call them, I was also the victim of a sexual assault as a young adult.) And I've been greatful for their services. It doesn't make the system any less broken and it doesn't erase the fact that I still come with the inherent privilege of being a white women. 

I've also experienced bad police who don't deserve to wear the uniform. The system is broken. 

 

 

 

Me too @LacyMay, I wouldn't know how to frame this thread properly, in full context, unless a mod could transfer all the relevant posts, which is way above my pay grade Lol.

LacyMay said: What's the alternative to not fixing the system and just burning it down? Anarchy?

I agree.  I think we must elect officials at all levels that will fix this very broken system.  The officer that murdered the gentleman in MN had multiple complaints, why was he, and those like him allowed to remain on the force?  POC must not be terrified to live in this country. The injustice is unbelievable. 

I'm Native American, living in a state that has blatantly discriminated against us, and still do.  I remember in the 60's/70's/80's hearing all the vile comments, physical assaults, stereotypes etc., most didn't have a clue I'm Cherokee.  At university, my Grandfather [a judge] was addressing my law school class, he introduced my Grandmother, a FB Cherokee [an activist],  should have seen the look on the faces of some of my acquaintances.  From that point on, I knew I wanted to advocate for justice, for Natives, as well as other minorities.  

But I wanted to do it properly, and we have made advancements.  I wish we would all start at the community level, produce our demands, and demand change, if they refuse, vote them out, it works, we have made great strides in some areas, and I'm in a very red state.  Show up at city council, school boards, State and Federally elected Reps town halls, their offices etc.  We have this right, we must use it, we can't wait for some one else to advocate, we are that some one else.

  

  

[Sabine]

19 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

No less an entity than the ACLU has defended the rights of the KKK and neo-nazis to march and assemble. I am perfectly willing to hear a nuanced, thoughtful argument from the anti-police crowd about maybe that's not feasible in light of Charlottesville. Anyone, anyone? Bueller, Bueller? 

The ACLU will defend anyone rights against state abuse. That also applies to KKK and Neo-Nazis (i would call these guys Ersatz Nazis as they would shit their pants if ever they were to meet a real Nazi). 

But the fact is that the Police is an entity that is funded and armed by the State. It is not having any issues with free speech or the right to peaceful assembly. It is having an issue by using the weapons, the armor, the tanks, the guns, the tasers, etc against the civilian population they are tasked to 'protect and serve'. The issue is that tax payers - and that includes anyone whom the police does not approve of - pay their wages, their weapons, their stations, their armor, their tanks, their drones, and all the other gadgets they get to keep you 'safe' or if you like so terrorized that you would not even think of 'peacefully assembling and using your first amendment to decry police brutality". 

But fact is that for the largest part in the US the Police is not here to help, they are there to demand immediate obeisance, and to protect the rich and levy fines on you for your various infractions - something that many towns depend on (again sucks if you are a person of color as you will be fined more then white people). You are just there to pay their bills. And you do. Every single time a settlement for wrongful death at the hand of a 'rotten apple' is handed down, You the tax payer is paying that settlement. It ain't the cops that are paying for the damage they do. Its you. US American Citizen and Taxpayer.  So maybe keep that in mind when waxing lyrically about hte 'rotten apples' and the 'anti police' brigade. 

[Naga Viper]

54 minutes ago, Caroline said:

We could start by telling the real stories of native Americans and black people in this country.  So many things I didn't learn until relatively recently.  We have to do better. 

The internment of Japanese-Americans, the Chinese Exclusion Act, to say nothing of this administration's travel bans and ICE raids...it just goes on and on and on.

As I half-jokingly say to my Irish-American husband, "If they get me, they're flipping on you and the Italians next."

[MamaJunebug]

7 hours ago, Babysitter said:

I agree with you, but she didn't just ask for prayers for hers to be safe because people are getting hurt and she's worried about their safety. She asked for prayers, then called the other side disgusting and asked what was wrong with them. That's a pretty big screw yours. 

I said I wasn’t going to comment further on the topic, but you are right – – that was in the original post.

 

I’ve never prayed for peace so hard before in my life - And I had five beloved cousins in the arm forces, three of them in Vietnam, during that war.

Thank you for your response/correction. Be well. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by MamaJunebug

[nausicaa]

So one small hopeful part of all of this I've noticed is a lot of people in my life and on social media are finally acknowledging police misconduct. 

I'm talking pro-military, "Blue Lives Matter" Trump voters. That video was so horrific and so undeniably wrong, that I think it opened some people's eyes. (Should their eyes have been open sooner? Yes, but nevertheless here we are.)

We're not going to completely wipe out the system and put a new one in overnight, so the realpolitik instincts in me are looking at things I think most Americans (85%~) can agree on. I've actually seen several of these suggested by conservative pundits: 

1. Removing qualified immunity for cops

2. Better vetting of police candidates (I can't get security clearance for a government job if I fuck around with white nationalists, so neither should they). I'm not talking about being a Republican party or NRA member. We're talking domestic violence charges, convicted of hate crimes, etc.  

3. Mandatory de-escalation training and progressive use of force trainings. 

4. Mandatory body cams. 

5. Community service hours in the neighborhoods police work in, if they don't already live within a certain radius, to get to know the population. 

6. Some type of centralized database tracking police violations so cops can't get fired for beating the shit out of an unarmed twelve year old and then just get a job in the next county. 

7. Police misconduct settlements come out of pension funds.

(I'd like to change more about police unions, but am not sure that is as achievable right now for several reasons.)

I worry protectors are going to miss their opportunity to speak with a unified voice to implement quantifiable changes. They do have a moment right now, and I do think most Americans would agree to all of these. I understand it's not going to fix everything, but it's a fuckton better than everything going back to the way things were. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by nausicaa

[Maggie Mae]

@nausicaa my number one would be a third party investigation team, right now internal investigations is just the police policing themselves. 

[nausicaa]

Just now, Maggie Mae said:

@nausicaa my number one would be a third party investigation team, right now internal investigations is just the police policing themselves. 

Yes, 100%. There were a couple other things I didn't add but think most people would agree to. Including deadly force laws like in Tennessee, where police have to use every available option before shooting. 

Honestly? I think a lot of people just don't know about these things. My mom is a compassionate, fairly liberal person. However, she is someone who just kind of blindly trusts authority and believes that rules must be fair. She's shocked when I explain a lot of this stuff to her. I think focusing on a few key issues makes success more likely because of the focus, but also because it helps to educate less politically active people about the issues at hand.

[LacyMay]

29 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

but also because it helps to educate less politically active people about the issues at hand.

I think this part is huge. I'm becoming more and more aware of how I'm part of the problem. Not intentionally but because I just didn't know enough or know better and *no one took the time to patiently explain* I was in social circles with very social justice focused *white* allies (I specify white because I recognize the emotional labour of asking a POC to explain systemic oppression) who just couldn't be bothered to explain things. 

I've been encouraged by seeing more comments in social media about the need for and importance of white allies especially to recognize that some of those people don't know better or haven't been taught better. The need for accessible language, the need for open dialogue etc. 

People's minds can be changed but they won't be changed by hurling insults at them. 

And to clarify I'm talking about people like me who are part of the problem but it's unintentional. The ones who don't recognize what their white privilege is or means, the ones who don't understand white fragility etc. The ones openly spewing hateful rhetoric maybe deserve a little less grace. 

 

[Expectopatronus]

3 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think the point trying to be made is that police brutality  is not just about a “a few bad apples” but a whole system (originated in slavery days & in conflict with Native Americans ) which often serves to terrorize and brutalize minorities, particularly black people. It’s not even only an American problem. 
 

The argument becomes baseless the second you start speaking of “good“and „bad“ cops. That’s not even the point. It’s the system.  

Personally I don’t believe the system is broken at all. This is one of its key features. At the very least, it needs serious reform. 
 

 

I agree that this is not a problem confined to the US. I’m Canadian and the relationship between Indigenous peoples and the police is one that was built on taking the land for « the Crown ». When reconciliation is discussed, it’s actually the wrong word: the relationship between Indigenous individuals and White individuals cannot be set right again when it was never right to begin with. The police force was intended to control and oppress Inuit, Métis and First Nations peoples. In my city, there have been four police shootings in the last two months and all of the victims were Indigenous. All of these officers are on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. 
You’re right that the system needs to be entirely reformed. 
However, I also know that the force where I live is frequently receiving education regarding colonialism and is working with elders and community members to build bridges. There are programs designed to encourage youth of colour to consider law enforcement as a career and shooting are investigated by a completely external board that has no police members. 
Within every career, there are people committed to change. They recognize that the status quo is deeply flawed and care about justice for all. There are also people who seek to uphold their privileged status. Unfortunately, there are also people who have internalized racist attitudes without conscious awareness and automatically react with « flight or fight »-or shoot, if one is armed. 
Change needs to start with acknowledgement of privilege, checking oneself for implicit racist reactions, and a reconstruction  of institutions that are rooted in injustice. The police officers who are sickened by the acts of their peers and who weep for the families of victims need to be seen as separate from those who perpetuate violence, stand idly by and watch it occur or try to cover it up. Police who murder need to be jailed. 

[CaseyGrace]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

So one small hopeful part of all of this I've noticed is a lot of people in my life and on social media are finally acknowledging police misconduct. 

I'm talking pro-military, "Blue Lives Matter" Trump voters. That video was so horrific and so undeniably wrong, that I think it opened some people's eyes. (Should their eyes have been open sooner? Yes, but nevertheless here we are.)

We're not going to completely wipe out the system and put a new one in overnight, so the realpolitik instincts in me are looking at things I think most Americans (85%~) can agree on. I've actually seen several of these suggested by conservative pundits: 

1. Removing qualified immunity for cops

2. Better vetting of police candidates (I can't get security clearance for a government job if I fuck around with white nationalists, so neither should they). I'm not talking about being a Republican party or NRA member. We're talking domestic violence charges, convicted of hate crimes, etc.  

3. Mandatory de-escalation training and progressive use of force trainings. 

4. Mandatory body cams. 

5. Community service hours in the neighborhoods police work in, if they don't already live within a certain radius, to get to know the population. 

6. Some type of centralized database tracking police violations so cops can't get fired for beating the shit out of an unarmed twelve year old and then just get a job in the next county. 

7. Police misconduct settlements come out of pension funds.

(I'd like to change more about police unions, but am not sure that is as achievable right now for several reasons.)

I worry protectors are going to miss their opportunity to speak with a unified voice to implement quantifiable changes. They do have a moment right now, and I do think most Americans would agree to all of these. I understand it's not going to fix everything, but it's a fuckton better than everything going back to the way things were. 

This is great and I would also like to see police academy training be extended, where I live its only 16 weeks, plus mandatory studies in psychology, law, etc.   

[Ozlsn]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Yes, 100%. There were a couple other things I didn't add but think most people would agree to. Including deadly force laws like in Tennessee, where police have to use every available option before shooting. 

All weapon discharges lead to mandatory suspension while they are investigated by an independent auditor. If you are going to carry a weapon then you should be handling it properly, and it should indeed be the last resort.

Ages ago Slacktivist pointed out that the gun had replaced the badge as the symbol of authority for a lot of US police (he was comparing US and UK Law and Order seasons, and once you saw it it was really obvious. Yes, TV - but I do wonder how much it reflects the societies.)  I think restoring the badge as the primary source of authority is a good idea.

[CaseyGrace]

Something that bothers me is the fact that any Louisville LEO could execute the arrest of Breonna Taylors murderers right now, we have the evidence, we all know that she was innocent, good cops need to start holding bad cops accountable for wrongdoing. 

[CaseyGrace]

my answer to "not all cops" or "some cops are just bad apples" is that I don't think this is a profession that should have bad apples, any job where you have a position of power over the vulnerable (medicine, education, law enforcement, etc) should not have a large scale issue with brutality or so called bad apples. 

[LacyMay]

2 hours ago, CaseyGrace said:

my answer to "not all cops" or "some cops are just bad apples" is that I don't think this is a profession that should have bad apples, any job where you have a position of power over the vulnerable (medicine, education, law enforcement, etc) should not have a large scale issue with brutality or so called bad apples. 

I saw something similar on Facebook today basically about how it's not enough to say that "some cops are just bad apples" and leave it at that and use it as an excuse to ignore the problem. 

Most people aren't denying that some cops are good cops and good people. The problem is that some isn't enough. And some professions don't get to have a few bad apples. The comparison I saw was it's not enough for an airline to say "well most of our pilots are good and like to land." That's not good enough. (I wish I could find the post and properly attribute it...if someone knows what one I'm referring to and could kindly let me know it would be great!) 

You can have 90% excellent police. But if the system is still broken nothing is going to get better. And the system isn't going to get better until a critical mass of society realizes that it needs to be better. 

 

[Pleiades_06]

15 hours ago, CaseyGrace said:

This is great and I would also like to see police academy training be extended, where I live its only 16 weeks, plus mandatory studies in psychology, law, etc.   

They need to recruit more people of color too.

[CaseyGrace]

2 hours ago, Pleiades_06 said:

They need to recruit more people of color too.

I honestly don't think that would change anything. Sadly not all skin folk are kin folk, the officer that watched guard while Floyd was being choked was asian, I think a few of the officers that murdered Freddie Gray were POC too. I think that the issues with the policing system here are complex and intrinsic, and they are not going to be solved by recruiting a couple of POC. 

[Sabine]

One of the first things to do - imo - is take away all the gadgets of the police. All of them, the tasers, the guns, the pellets, the rubber bullets etc etc etc and then those still willing to pull a shift can go out and walk the beat. 

Once they actually have to work with the public - not only to keep the public safe but also themselves, they might be a little less inclined to just shoot, beat, maim, rape etc. Currently, they can do with you (as in the larger public) and anyone else what they want to do, when they want to do it and it will cost them nothing. 

You - the public, are the prey, the enemy, the goon, the thug, the slut, the pusher, the trash that they can do with as they please. And they support those that will allow them to terrorize you - the public - so as long as the public lets them. 

And what we are seeing now on our TVs and computer screen is a state sanctioned Police Riot, and frankly i have a hard time seeing any good apples anywhere. Some are a bit smarter, but there seem to be no decent cops, no decent law enforcement officers in the US. Just some jacked up goons who joined the blue Gang cause it sure beats earning an honest day wage.  And with the military now joining in  I would say that sadly the US is not only a failed state but a very much failed experiment in democracy. 

[CaseyGrace]

2 minutes ago, Sabine said:

One of the first things to do - imo - is take away all the gadgets of the police. All of them, the tasers, the guns, the pellets, the rubber bullets etc etc etc and then those still willing to pull a shift can go out and walk the beat. 

Once they actually have to work with the public - not only to keep the public safe but also themselves, they might be a little less inclined to just shoot, beat, maim, rape etc. Currently, they can do with you (as in the larger public) and anyone else what they want to do, when they want to do it and it will cost them nothing. 

You - the public, are the prey, the enemy, the goon, the thug, the slut, the pusher, the trash that they can do with as they please. And they support those that will allow them to terrorize you - the public - so as long as the public lets them. 

And what we are seeing now on our TVs and computer screen is a state sanctioned Police Riot, and frankly i have a hard time seeing any good apples anywhere. Some are a bit smarter, but there seem to be no decent cops, no decent law enforcement officers in the US. Just some jacked up goons who joined the blue Gang cause it sure beats earning an honest day wage.  And with the military now joining in  I would say that sadly the US is not only a failed state but a very much failed experiment in democracy. 

After hearing first hand accounts from people who have been at protests, the cops are teargassing peaceful protesters (including children) shooting rubber bullets at journalists, shooting rubber bullets at people who are not protesting, and hitting people with their cars I am inclined to agree with you. At first I though that reforming the police academy and other changes would be great but I don't know if that would really help. 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, CaseyGrace said:

I honestly don't think that would change anything. Sadly not all skin folk are kin folk, the officer that watched guard while Floyd was being choked was asian, I think a few of the officers that murdered Freddie Gray were POC too. I think that the issues with the policing system here are complex and intrinsic, and they are not going to be solved by recruiting a couple of POC. 

Black cops make up about 13.3% of police officers, and black people make up about 13.4% of the U.S. population per the last U.S. census, so the representation is pretty balanced. I do think generally black cops in black neighborhoods probably helps things though, but like you said it's not the answer to everything. And I imagine there might be some legal issues to saying you're only going to assign employees of a certain race to certain jobs. 

I was surprised to see the shooter of Philando Castile was Hispanic.  I think a lot of people don't know that. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by nausicaa
Correction: He was Hispanic, not Asian.

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Sabine said:

And with the military now joining in  I would say that sadly the US is not only a failed state but a very much failed experiment in democracy. 

I'm sorry but this is not true and this is the sort of rhetoric I was trying to point out is ineffective and damaging with my earlier post. Words have meanings and we have a quantifiable definition for a failed state. It's also frankly disrespectful to people living in actual failed states like Somalia and South Sudan. 

We are currently ranked as stable on the State Fragility Index, have functioning food logistics, enforceable borders, clear leadership succession, and our currency functions. I'm not sure how we are a failed experiment in democracy. We might not like the result of elections, or the electoral college (I certainly don't), but our elections are accountable. We have a free press, which is the reason we can all follow along with what is happening during these protests. 

And the president of the United States, as outlined in the Constitution, is the Commander in Chief. He can mobilize the military. I think he's making a horrifically bad decision and I shudder at the violence that is about to break out from this decision, but he's not violating our democracy or our rule of law by doing so. 

Things are really bad right now. But hyperbole doesn't help anything. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by nausicaa

[grandmadugger]

11 hours ago, CaseyGrace said:

my answer to "not all cops" or "some cops are just bad apples" is that I don't think this is a profession that should have bad apples, any job where you have a position of power over the vulnerable (medicine, education, law enforcement, etc) should not have a large scale issue with brutality or so called bad apples. 

You are absolutely right! No one in a position of authority should be above reproach. My fear is when any group is labeled as the bad apples that the good apples will say screw it and just go with the flow. As humans we have to call out the bad and hold them accountable so the good can prevail. 
 

I also agree our judicial system is broken and must be fixed. I have to admit that I am fairly ignorant on how to fix it though.

[Sabine]

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I'm sorry but this is not true and this is the sort of rhetoric I was trying to point out is ineffective and damaging with my earlier post. Words have meanings and we have a quantifiable definition for a failed state. It's also frankly disrespectful to people living in actual failed states like Somalia and South Sudan. 

And the president of the United States, as outlined in the Constitution, is the Commander in Chief. He can mobilize the military. I think he's making a horrifically bad decision and I shudder at the violence that is about to break out from this decision, but he's not violating our democracy or our rule of law by doing so. 

Things are really bad right now. But hyperbole doesn't help anything. 

The  president -  also called - and rightly so ' Cadet Bonespurs' is Chief of nothing. Literally. Without the republican party supporting him the  guy would have been impeached and found guilty as charged if he were a Democrat. But then having consensual sex with an intern is a bigger issue then blackmailing foreign heads of states  or for that matter Governors of US States that he does not approve of. (Or withholding and outright stealing medical equipment for 'their' stockpile as per the lovely Jarvanka).

Nevermind, as the ACLU says : https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/fascism-has-come-to-america-trump-ripped-for-gassing-protesters-to-hold-awkward-bible-photo-op/

Quote: 

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is calling for investigations into the tear-gassing of protesters so President Donald Trump could hold a photo-op.

“This appears to be grossly unjustified use of a chemical weapon on protesters and raises serious human rights concerns under international law,” the ACLU posted to Twitter.

“Elected officials, including Congress, must investigate this politically-motivated, life-threatening use of indiscriminate weapons,” the ACLU demanded." 

 

Or here in the Rose Garden, Cadet Bonespurs is all presidential  

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/01/trump-slams-governors-as-weak-crackdown-on-protests-294023

"President Donald Trump on Monday declared himself the “president of law and order” and said he would mobilize every available federal force both “civilian and military” as he vowed to put an immediate end to violent protests that have swept the nation for days."

"As Trump spoke, police also fired rubber bullets at protesters gathered peacefully on the edge of Lafayette Square directly in front of the White House. After his speech and with the square cleared, the president walked across the street for a photo op in front of the the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church, where he held up a Bible."

 

Because nothing says 'Commander in Chief " more then ordering the police force to fire rubber bullets at protestors, or was that just something that he wanted for "Maga Night"?  

This happening in any country that the US wants to send liberty too and freedoms like Lybia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Venezuela, just to name a few would have all the Fox Clows wetting their pants while screaming on Top of their lungs ' Failed State, Police State, Nuke em'.  

This is what happens in a country were the police don't give a flying dime about the population, were the ruling party don't give a flying dime about the population, and above all were the commander in chief is missing in action and absent without leave. And all of that does not take into account his absolutely abhorrent behavior in regards to Covid 19. 

Your country is fucked. And it grieves me to no end, as i have family there, friends, have visited multiple times and know that chances are in my lifetime i will never go there again, for all the above reasons. Your country ain't  save for black people, for brown people, for women, for non Christians, for the wrong Christians, for people who do not identify straight missionary style heterosexuals, for the first nations, and anyone who does on the surface not look white evangelic with economic anxiety and wearing a thin blue band. . And we all get to watch it fall apart in real time on our Tellies. Especially when the Police of the United States takes aim at the 'enemy of the state' the Journalists and Reporter of your country.

But nevermind, enjoy your fellow citizens run away from the law enforcement they pay via their taxes (so that the 'commander in chief' the worlds biggest coward can have a Photo Op with an upside down held bible because he can't even that do right) , and tell yourself that it is all 'hyperbole'. 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Sabine
wrong article.

[nausicaa]

Just now, Sabine said:

The  president -  also called - and rightly so ' Cadet Bonespurs' is Chief of nothing. Literally. Without the republican party supporting him the  guy would have been impeached and found guilty as charged if he were a Democrat. 

He is currently the Commander in Chief of the United States military. Literally. (And unlike you, I'm using that word correctly.)

That is not stating he's a good Commander in Chief, or that his actions are advisable, or even that all of them are legal. But you see, facts exist, and we don't get to pretend things are something else. According to the U.S. Constitution, he is currently the Commander in Chief according to the law of the land.

And impeachment does not mean he is removed from office (see: Bill Clinton). You seem to be confusing that term as well. 

 

Quote

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is calling for investigations into the tear-gassing of protesters so President Donald Trump could hold a photo-op.

As they should. That was disgusting and quite likely illegal. Again, still doesn't mean he isn't currently the Commander in Chief and still not proving that we are a failed state. In fact, I'd say the fact that we have a non-profit headquartered in our country devoted to fighting for civil rights that is allowed to speak out against the president is pretty solid evidence we are not a failed state and our democracy is not (yet) a failure. 

 

Quote

Because nothing says 'Commander in Chief " more then ordering the police force to fire rubber bullets at protestors, or was that just something that he wanted for "Maga Night"? 

Again, "commander in chief" is not a compliment or some appellation of approval. It is merely a designation. Kim Jong-Un is the leader and commander in chief of North Korea. Doesn't mean he's any fucking good at it.

 

Quote

This happening in any country that the US wants to send liberty too and freedoms like Lybia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Venezuela, just to name a few would have all the Fox Clows wetting their pants while screaming on Top of their lungs ' Failed State, Police State, Nuke em'.  

 Yes, Fox News probably would say that. Fox News is ridiculous. Still doesn't make the U.S. a failed state. You just keep throwing out the argument fallacies left and right here. 

 

Quote

Your country is fucked. And it grieves me to no end, as i have family there, friends, have visited multiple times and know that chances are in my lifetime i will never go there again, for all the above reasons.

Really? You sound quite delighted about all of this.

...and not interested in offering many solutions. 

 

Quote

Your country is fucked...Your country ain't  save for black people, for brown people, for women, for non Christians, for the wrong Christians, for people who do not identify straight missionary style heterosexuals, for the first nations, and anyone who does on the surface not look white evangelic with economic anxiety and wearing a thin blue band.

This is another ridiculous exaggeration and it's beyond bizarre to have someone who doesn't live in my country tell me what the experience is like for every single demographic within 3.8 million square miles of a country of 328 million people. 

Even more bizarre that you feel comfortable telling me what my own experience is here as a "wrong Christian" woman. 

(Also, can someone tell the doggy-style loving heteros the U.S. is after 'em?)

 

Quote

But nevermind, enjoy your fellow citizens run away from the law enforcement they pay via their taxes (so that the 'commander in chief' the worlds biggest coward can have a Photo Op with an upside down held bible because he can't even that do right) , and tell yourself that it is all 'hyperbole'. 

What makes you think I'm enjoying any of this?

To reiterate because you seem to struggle with reading comprehension: I did not say "nothing is wrong." I didn't say illegal things aren't happening. I didn't say it is "all hyperbole." I said calling us a failed state is hyperbole. It distracts from the issues at hand and encourages conservatives to dismiss valid arguments that liberals have. 

[Pleiades_06]

4 hours ago, Sabine said:

The  president -  also called - and rightly so ' Cadet Bonespurs' is Chief of nothing. Literally. Without the republican party supporting him the  guy would have been impeached and found guilty as charged if he were a Democrat. But then having consensual sex with an intern is a bigger issue then blackmailing foreign heads of states  or for that matter Governors of US States that he does not approve of. (Or withholding and outright stealing medical equipment for 'their' stockpile as per the lovely Jarvanka).

Nevermind, as the ACLU says : https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/fascism-has-come-to-america-trump-ripped-for-gassing-protesters-to-hold-awkward-bible-photo-op/

Quote: 

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is calling for investigations into the tear-gassing of protesters so President Donald Trump could hold a photo-op.

“This appears to be grossly unjustified use of a chemical weapon on protesters and raises serious human rights concerns under international law,” the ACLU posted to Twitter.

“Elected officials, including Congress, must investigate this politically-motivated, life-threatening use of indiscriminate weapons,” the ACLU demanded." 

 

Or here in the Rose Garden, Cadet Bonespurs is all presidential  

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/01/trump-slams-governors-as-weak-crackdown-on-protests-294023

"President Donald Trump on Monday declared himself the “president of law and order” and said he would mobilize every available federal force both “civilian and military” as he vowed to put an immediate end to violent protests that have swept the nation for days."

"As Trump spoke, police also fired rubber bullets at protesters gathered peacefully on the edge of Lafayette Square directly in front of the White House. After his speech and with the square cleared, the president walked across the street for a photo op in front of the the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church, where he held up a Bible."

 

Because nothing says 'Commander in Chief " more then ordering the police force to fire rubber bullets at protestors, or was that just something that he wanted for "Maga Night"?  

This happening in any country that the US wants to send liberty too and freedoms like Lybia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Venezuela, just to name a few would have all the Fox Clows wetting their pants while screaming on Top of their lungs ' Failed State, Police State, Nuke em'.  

This is what happens in a country were the police don't give a flying dime about the population, were the ruling party don't give a flying dime about the population, and above all were the commander in chief is missing in action and absent without leave. And all of that does not take into account his absolutely abhorrent behavior in regards to Covid 19. 

Your country is fucked. And it grieves me to no end, as i have family there, friends, have visited multiple times and know that chances are in my lifetime i will never go there again, for all the above reasons. Your country ain't  save for black people, for brown people, for women, for non Christians, for the wrong Christians, for people who do not identify straight missionary style heterosexuals, for the first nations, and anyone who does on the surface not look white evangelic with economic anxiety and wearing a thin blue band. . And we all get to watch it fall apart in real time on our Tellies. Especially when the Police of the United States takes aim at the 'enemy of the state' the Journalists and Reporter of your country.

But nevermind, enjoy your fellow citizens run away from the law enforcement they pay via their taxes (so that the 'commander in chief' the worlds biggest coward can have a Photo Op with an upside down held bible because he can't even that do right) , and tell yourself that it is all 'hyperbole'. 

 

 

 

I’m interested in where you are from/where you live. 

4 hours ago, Sabine said:

Your country is fucked. And it grieves me to no end, as i have family there, friends, have visited multiple times and know that chances are in my lifetime i will never go there again, for all the above reasons. Your country ain't  save for black people, for brown people, for women, for non Christians, for the wrong Christians, for people who do not identify straight missionary style heterosexuals, for the first nations, and anyone who does on the surface not look white evangelic with economic anxiety and wearing a thin blue band. . And we all get to watch it fall apart in real time on our Tellies. Especially when the Police of the United States takes aim at the 'enemy of the state' the Journalists and Reporter of your country.

Seriously-if you are from Europe or a Western country   I take great offense at this. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Pleiades_06