Black Lives Matter

[ignorantobserver]

5 hours ago, Sabine said:

Your country is fucked. And it grieves me to no end, as i have family there, friends, have visited multiple times and know that chances are in my lifetime i will never go there again, for all the above reasons. Your country ain't  save for black people, for brown people, for women, for non Christians, for the wrong Christians, for people who do not identify straight missionary style heterosexuals, for the first nations, and anyone who does on the surface not look white evangelic with economic anxiety and wearing a thin blue band. . And we all get to watch it fall apart in real time on our Tellies. Especially when the Police of the United States takes aim at the 'enemy of the state' the Journalists and Reporter of your country.

I am sorry, but you have been watching too much TV. Anyone could film a documentary about Berlin on the First of May, or certain suburbs of Paris on the 14th of July, and come to the conclusion that Germany and France are failed states : people burn cars ! Attack police officers ! Throw stones at windows ! The images we currently see are not an adequate depiction of everyday  reality in the United States. If they were, the US would be like Syria, tens of millions of American refugees would flood Mexico, we would send care packages to major US cities... and we all would probably be dead already because I don't want to imagine the consequences of that level of instability in a country with nuclear weapons.

Frankly, I am scared of what television is doing to our culture. People get a completely skewed idea of reality and spend their time fantasising about serial killers, child abductions, satanists, conspiracies and other extremely rare or completely imaginary threats instead of trying to address actual problems in their communities. I remember reading a statistic (years ago) illustrating that the detachment from reality grew with the hours per day people spent watching TV, especially "news". Really, I am quite sure that watching "the news" 24/24 is one of the best things you can do to completely lose contact with actual dangers, actual problems and actual political life in your country. Nothing of this depicts reality. Anti-TV-rant over.

Edited June 2, 2020 by ignorantobserver

[CaseyGrace]

 I don't support whitesplaining to frustrated  individuals about how police are great just  because your  son or husband is a police officer and you think they are great. there needs to be a huge overhaul of the police system in this country because things are getting out of hand they are tear gassing journalists and children! absolutely reprehensible. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by CaseyGrace

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

3 hours ago, ignorantobserver said:

I am sorry, but you have been watching too much TV. Anyone could film a documentary about Berlin on the First of May, or certain suburbs of Paris on the 14th of July, and come to the conclusion that Germany and France are failed states : people burn cars ! Attack police officers ! Throw stones at windows ! The images we currently see are not an adequate depiction of everyday  reality in the United States. If they were, the US would be like Syria, tens of millions of American refugees would flood Mexico, we would send care packages to major US cities... and we all would probably be dead already because I don't want to imagine the consequences of that level of instability in a country with nuclear weapons.

Frankly, I am scared of what television is doing to our culture. People get a completely skewed idea of reality and spend their time fantasising about serial killers, child abductions, satanists, conspiracies and other extremely rare or completely imaginary threats instead of trying to address actual problems in their communities. I remember reading a statistic (years ago) illustrating that the detachment from reality grew with the hours per day people spent watching TV, especially "news". Really, I am quite sure that watching "the news" 24/24 is one of the best things you can do to completely lose contact with actual dangers, actual problems and actual political life in your country. Nothing of this depicts reality. Anti-TV-rant over.

You can blame TV all you want but to many of us in other countries, it feels like the Roman Republic is crumbling. Y'all don't even have public health care. Your murder rate is really high. Your income inequality is really high. Your racism is especially bad. I'm not saying you're a bad person for living where you do (obviously) but I don't picture the US getting its act together. I do picture a lot of other countries fighting for the power gap the States is leaving behind. I hope your leaders prove me wrong.

[Pleiades_06]

6 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

You can blame TV all you want but to many of us in other countries, it feels like the Roman Republic is crumbling. Y'all don't even have public health care. Your murder rate is really high. Your income inequality is really high. Your racism is especially bad. I'm not saying you're a bad person for living where you do (obviously) but I don't picture the US getting its act together. I do picture a lot of other countries fighting for the power gap the States is leaving behind. I hope your leaders prove me wrong.

Yes-the United States has an incredible income equality and race problem. It’s disgusting and the direct legacy of Europe. 

Europeans and those of European descent should be very careful before getting on their high horse-this is your history too.

European colonization, slave trade,  and immigration to the Americas are directly to blame for inequality today.

European nations have participated in the free commerce economy there and profited from it. 

And if we’re taking about in Europe, the EU has one of the most discriminatory immigration systems in the world. I know because both my Iranian husband and I have been through it. Trump is using it as an excuse for being more exclusive and racist.

I say this as a long time resident of Germany and the US-I’m married to a non-European who had to wait 17 years for a German passport. There is a hubris here I find intolerable because Europe promotes itself as a place of enlightenment while the rest of the world is so backwards. Meanwhile Turks are non-citizens in the countries of their birth and African refugees are dying off the coast of Italy.

The fascist right is on the rise and it’s Islamophobia is rampant. My husband was so scared of being attacked that he took to hanging a cross in his car (he’s not Christian).

The Schadenfreude is understandable because the US has abused its power world wide. But it’s still not help the people-it’s just making Europeans feel superior. How about donating to a cause for BLM or Amnesty? How about finding the brown people in your neighborhood and supporting them? How about protesting in support?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 hours ago, Sabine said:

But then having consensual sex with an intern is a bigger issue then blackmailing foreign heads of states  or for that matter Governors of US States that he does not approve of.

I do not know why people insist on drawing this comparison as if for Trump to be malicious then Clinton needs to be innocent.  I am so tired of the pass that sexual predator gets just because people want more ammo to bash Trump.

You don't need more ammo.  Trump's own actions provide enough fodder for several hundred lifetimes.

[ignorantobserver]

3 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

You can blame TV all you want but to many of us in other countries, it feels like the Roman Republic is crumbling. Y'all don't even have public health care. Your murder rate is really high. Your income inequality is really high. Your racism is especially bad. I'm not saying you're a bad person for living where you do (obviously) but I don't picture the US getting its act together. I do picture a lot of other countries fighting for the power gap the States is leaving behind. I hope your leaders prove me wrong.

I understand what you are saying, but the issues you list are excusively internal. At the height of their power and influence, during the second half of the 20th century, the US had all these problems, worse than today. Water fountains reserved for people of color. Bus seats reserved for white passengers. Extreme forms of voter suppression. A KKK still active and powerful. All of these things happened during the fifties, and they did nothing to lessen America's influence in the world.

I would describe the phenomenon you mention in different terms : it "feels" like something is crumbling, but that feeling describes a form of ideological shift, not necessarily  a political one (before Trump anyway). The US were admired in the entire Western World until the beginning of the 21st Century. They were universally the good guys. They were an example to imitate in every imaginable way. Young people watched Hollywood movies, wore blue jeans and thought themselves incredibly cool and modern. This prestige, this cultural leadership, is still there, and still highly influential. I would say that the international perception of the US changed somewhat during the second Iraq War that is pretty much universally reviled and seen as an example of neo-colonial, ruthless expansionist politics in which they try to entangle their allies. Obama's campaign has led to a certain awareness, on the international level, that the social security net in the US is not as good as everyone assumed, leading to a certain regrowth of European pride, even nationalism, and to a more widespread awareness of cultural differences between, say, Scandinavia and the US. But these things only mean that individual Europeans tend to identify less with American culture than they did fifty years ago. Nothing of it means that the actual political stability or international influence of the US has lessened. (I would say that the Trump administration actively tries to sabotage the US on the international stage, but I can't tell if it will be successful).

I would also like to add that the very reason events like the Iraq War are seen as so shocking is the universal, firmly held belief that the US are a model of democracy and modern politics. Because of the role they played in the democratization of Europe, people here tend to see them as a beacon of political freedom and human rights. And for the most part, they are right ! But this status also means they are held to a higher standard than other countries. Nobody bats an eye if China invades Tibet, it's just what China does, but if America does the same, that's a huge blow to "Western" cultural identity. Nobody is surprised when terrorists from backwater failed states kill random people on the streets, but if Israeli soldiers mistreat civilians, that's worse because it endangers the conviction that democratic states founded on human rights are stable / viable long-term / the best option for everyone. This is why the US are under so much scrutiny. It's a compliment, actually.

Edited June 2, 2020 by ignorantobserver

[47of74]

Don’t know bout this guy’s politics but if he is a reich winger jerkass has a point. 

Quote

Sometimes the best thing to do is walk away. Stop throwing pearls to the swine, as Jesus said. 

When the arguments have all been had, and everybody’s made their points a million times, maybe a peaceful split is not the worst answer in the world.

That was the thinking of the signers of “The Declaration of Independence.”

All efforts at reconciliation had failed. It was time to go. They declared their intention to secede from the authority of King George III. Of course, the tyrant branded that effort as rebellious. It didn’t have to be a war, but he made it one.

 

[zeebaneighba]

17 hours ago, nausicaa said:

 

We are currently ranked as stable on the State Fragility Index, have functioning food logistics, enforceable borders, clear leadership succession, and our currency functions. I'm not sure how we are a failed experiment in democracy. We might not like the result of elections, or the electoral college (I certainly don't), but our elections are accountable. We have a free press, which is the reason we can all follow along with what is happening during these protests. 

If you think Trump and his fascist thugs are going to vacate congress and the White House peacefully if (pray to all the gods) they lose, you are incredibly naive.  I sincerely doubt we can even have anything approaching fair elections this year. The country is broken.  The fascists are in charge.  I am terrified for our country.

[luv2laugh]

I am so disgusted. Braggie Abbie of MisForMama made a vile Instagram post of HERSELF in a dress today, Black Out Tuesday, basically preaching to the black community. In a nutshell, she basically says that feeling uncomfortable being in the minority is self-interest which is "neither right nor justified". Of course, she turned off comments. I'm nauseated. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by luv2laugh

[seraaa]

You all have probably noted this already, but I'm constantly surprised by the people are speaking up and participating in response to George Floyd's murder. It feels like there is a real effort to understand by people in church spaces that was just absent 5 more years ago. People who were "all lives matter"-ing  5 years ago are not doing that this time and more people are talking.  And this is just what I have observed from online; It's must be awesome for those who have been actively pushing for this for years see it continue to gain pace

I mean: a Duggar

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by seraaa

[nausicaa]

49 minutes ago, zeebaneighba said:

If you think Trump and his fascist thugs are going to vacate congress and the White House peacefully if (pray to all the gods) they lose, you are incredibly naive.  I sincerely doubt we can even have anything approaching fair elections this year. The country is broken.  The fascists are in charge.  I am terrified for our country.

I think there is a possibility that Trump will not vacate peacefully. I didn't speak to that in my post. Since 2016 though, we have had peaceful transfers of power. 

I'm going to try this one more time because people still seem to be conflating my point with other discussions because of the current swarm of feelings: I didn't say things aren't bad. I didn't say I'm not worried about this election or our country's future. I pointed out that we do not meet the definition of a failed state and provided facts to back that up. If people disagree with this assessment, I'm genuinely interested in the evidence they have to prove we meet the established definition of a failed state. Words have meanings, and I'm sorry but feelings, no matter how intense, don't sway me. 

You've upvoted a post that denies the demonstrable fact that Trump is currently the Commander in Chief of the United States military. His job title is not an opinion or an endorsement, it's just a fact. How do you think that type of irrational rhetoric helps any of this?

Edited June 2, 2020 by nausicaa

[ignorantobserver]

44 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I think there is a possibility that Trump will not vacate peacefully. I didn't speak to that in my post.

I apologize in advance if this is off-topic, but I am really curious to hear your perspectives on this question. America already had some pretty bad presidents. Alcoholics, Alzheimer patients, at least one who was an outright criminal... Until now, they all vacated the White House peacefully and there has been no attempt to become president for life as far as I am aware. Trump strikes me as extremely incompetent compared to someone like Nixon : I absolutely believe that he wants to do what Putin did and become basically a dictator, if only because he has the identity of a shady CEO who expects his employees to grovel / of a mafia godfather who tries to put his family members in charge. But I can't imagine he has the general intelligence, imagination, self-control, social awareness, knowledge and so on necessary to efficiently pursue this presumed goal. If I understand the situation correctly, he basically relies on his counselors to talk him out of some idiotic move that would destroy his presidency about twice a week. Trump alone doesn't seem really dangerous, but is there somone who is ? Are there people in his entourage you believe could become an actual threat to the institutions of the US ? As in, they would and could orchestrate a coup d'Etat with Trump as a figurehead ?

Edited June 2, 2020 by ignorantobserver

[Jinder Roles]

11 hours ago, ignorantobserver said:

The images we currently see are not an adequate depiction of everyday  reality in the United States. 

It actually is for some people...and that’s the problem. 
 

And it’s not just the police system. I can go on for ages about medical racism, red-lining, the prison industrial complex, the burgeoning detention industry, reproductive injustice, poverty among indigenous people and just general white supremacy. 
 

Edited to say: I’m not giving Jessa any props for one blackout post. It’s not longer socially acceptable to #alllivesmatter and our savvy Blessa knows this. Secondly, these blackout posts are drowning out important information that BLM protesters on the ground need. 
 

I’ll give her a nod when she donates to a bail fund and has an understanding of systemic oppression and how she (and the conservative & fundamentalist Christians) have helped to perpetuate this bullshit for decades. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Jinder Roles

[ignorantobserver]

5 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

It actually is for some people...and that’s the problem. 
 

And it’s not just the police system. I can go on for ages about medical racism, red-lining, the prison industrial complex, the burgeoning detention industry, reproductive injustice, poverty among indigenous people and just general white supremacy. 

Yes, I didn't mean to relativise these issues. I was alluding to the footage of people pillaging and burning, of open combat between protesters and police officers. The above poster thought America was on the verge of descending into chaos. As far as I can tell, that is not the case.

[Jinder Roles]

5 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

Yes, I didn't mean to relativise these issues. I was alluding to the footage of people pillaging and burning, of open combat between protesters and police officers. The above poster thought America was on the verge of descending into chaos. As far as I can tell, that is not the case.

Ok I understand. Personally I think you could descend into chaos relatively easily but I get your point. 

[fraurosena]

45 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

I apologize in advance if this is off-topic, but I am really curious to hear your perspectives on this question. America already had some pretty bad presidents. Alcoholics, Alzheimer patients, at least one who was an outright criminal... Until now, they all vacated the White House peacefully and there has been no attempt to become president for life as far as I am aware. Trump strikes me as extremely incompetent compared to someone like Nixon : I absolutely believe that he wants to do what Putin did and become basically a dictator, if only because he has the identity of a shady CEO who expects his employees to grovel / of a mafia godfather who tries to put his family members in charge. But I can't imagine he has the general intelligence, imagination, self-control, social awareness, knowledge and so on necessary to efficiently pursue this presumed goal. If I understand the situation correctly, he basically relies on his counselors to talk him out of some idiotic move that would destroy his presidency about twice a week. Trump alone doesn't seem really dangerous, but is there somone who is ? Are there people in his entourage you believe could become an actual threat to the institutions of the US ? As in, they would and could orchestrate a coup d'Etat with Trump as a figurehead ?

If you are interested in finding out more about American politics in general and which specific politicians are pulling on which strings, I highly recommend going over to the politics threads. There is so much information there that I can't put into a single post, but I'm confident you will find at least a partial answer to your question there:

https://www.freejinger.org/forum/466-quiver-full-of-politics/

[LacyMay]

47 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Edited to say: I’m not giving Jessa any props for one blackout post. It’s not longer socially acceptable to #alllivesmatter and our savvy Blessa knows this. Secondly, these blackout posts are drowning out important information that BLM protesters on the ground need. 
 

I'm not about to give her props...but I'm not going to give her negative props either. I think it's the least harmful thing she could have done. And I appreciate that she didn't use the black lives matter hashtag with it since in my circles that's what people have been asking not to be attached. 

At most she might be making a small effort to open herself up or to learn AT LEAST she's not posting something harmful. The bar is unimaginably low for her on this but it still exists. 

 

 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, ignorantobserver said:

Trump alone doesn't seem really dangerous, but is there somone who is ? Are there people in his entourage you believe could become an actual threat to the institutions of the US ? As in, they would and could orchestrate a coup d'Etat with Trump as a figurehead ?

My total guess as someone with zero credentials other than being a loud mouth on a discussion forum:

No, one of our saving graces here is the administration is completely incompetent and about as organized as a herd of feral cats. They don't have a Karl Rove or Dick Cheney who is actually smart and can implement a wide scale plan for, well, anything. (Still haven't seen that wall...)

We have to vote him out by a landslide. If it's close, or in the unlikely event he won the popular vote and lost the electoral college, he would take it to the Supreme Court, using Bush v. Gore as his precedent and drag things out. 

If there is a landslide for Biden, keep in mind we still have a free press, two other stable branches of government, and a clearly established 230-year-old Constitution. All of which make an authoritarian coup pretty challenging. 

As of December 2019, half of active duty service members are unhappy with Trump and that percentage rises as you go up the ranks, so it's unlikely he could lead a military-backed coup over the other two branches AND the incoming democratically-elected president AND a heavily armed civilian population. 

And one thing Americans are really, really good at is telling people to fuck off. We don't like to just fall in line. Which is disastrous during a pandemic but pretty useful in avoiding dictatorships.

My gut says he'll be a shitty little baby about it, but eventually relent within a few days of the election. He won't give a congratulatory call or agree to shaking Biden's hand on inauguration day. In some ways I think he will love losing the election and it's what he wanted in the first place. He wants to say the Democrats rigged the election, it's all a Soros/Q conspiracy, the "illegals" are taking over. He'll join up with Fox News and start some traveling circus where he gets to bitch about Biden and bask in adulation.

To get back to your question: Who is really dangerous in his entourage are the American voters who still blindly support him. My biggest concern if he loses is all of the conspiracy theories he will be constantly whipping up, further dividing our country and undermining the concept of critical reasoning and reality itself. I also worry some of his heavily armed supporters will get really weird and reawaken the militia movement. 

My other fear is he doesn't lose. We don't have this thing in the bag. Riots helped Nixon in '68. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by nausicaa

[Jinder Roles]

@LacyMay Because I’m certain they are doing this as a PR move (and for clout) I view it as negative. 
 

Honestly, it would be better if they were just quiet. 

[Smee]

5 hours ago, nausicaa said:

My other fear is he doesn't lose. We don't have this thing in the bag. Riots helped Nixon in '68. 

This is my fear too (not the riots specifically, though I do think he’s using them to take dangerous steps with respect to state’s rights and the military). I don’t even think you could assume that everyone who cares enough to show up to a protest will vote, or will be allowed to. The organised, capable republicans (not Trump and Jared etc) have long been working to make voting harder for poor people and minorities. So the fear of fall to an authoritarian regime is less a fear that he’ll be voted out and refuse to leave and the military will somehow take his side on that. It’s that he won’t be voted out, and he’ll continue to wield his power in increasingly dangerous and illegal ways, and then he’ll spend the next 4 years removing or extending term limits.

In a practical sense, I also worry about the impact covid will have on the election. I know it’s still months away, but there’s a lot of unknown between now and November, and the knock-on effects like job loss aren’t going to be fixed by then. Protests/riots can also certainly help spread the disease.

[Someone Out There]

8 hours ago, Smee said:

In a practical sense, I also worry about the impact covid will have on the election. I know it’s still months away, but there’s a lot of unknown between now and November, and the knock-on effects like job loss aren’t going to be fixed by then. Protests/riots can also certainly help spread the disease.

Wouldn't a president who likes to tout his "economic" credentials (despite you know, going bankrupt several times) be more likely to get voted out if the economy continues to tank?

In regards to which country is more racist than others every country has issues with it.  In my own country I would say the indigenous population has it the worst, however there are prejudices that extend to all communities and while it significantly better now than it was 50 years ago it is by no means perfect.

I do think that the various police forces in the USA need to be demilitarized and have better training (i.e. de-escalation and public relations, not military training), along with actual prosecutions and convictions for excessive use of force.

Something I don't understand about the US systems is why is the majority of it at County level?  Particularly things like Sheriffs being elected (which may be okish in large cities, but seems to be ripe for corruption in smaller counties (such as where the Kingston clan were).  Then there was the situtation I think in NYC where the Ultra Orthodox Jewish population took over the school board and defunded the public education system for the county.

[CaricatureQualities]

12 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

@LacyMay Because I’m certain they are doing this as a PR move (and for clout) I view it as negative. 
 

Honestly, it would be better if they were just quiet. 

They are trying to switch from a growling wolf to a smiling fox IMO. 

They will show signs of solidarity and say they black ppl are gods children and they love them...and will distract with the notions that this is simply satans work....all why continuing to push for political policy and christian nationalism that will in actuality not support the well being of black communities and will actively keep them down in the system. 

 

[lezajenda]

2 hours ago, CaricatureQualities said:

They are trying to switch from a growling wolf to a smiling fox IMO. 

They will show signs of solidarity and say they black ppl are gods children and they love them...and will distract with the notions that this is simply satans work....all why continuing to push for political policy and christian nationalism that will in actuality not support the well being of black communities and will actively keep them down in the system. 

 

Yes to all of this. I find these fundie "Imago dei" black squares condescending and obnoxious. It's like they saw the plain black squares and, in typical white savior fashion said, "you forgot to make it about Jesus! There, fixed it for you - you're welcome!"  This way they can tell their followers "I'm just like you and care about the same things, but more jesussy and therefore better!" Then they sit back and bask in the praise of their followers for being so woke. 

It's also worth noting that *constable* John Duggar and *candidate* Jed Duggar have nothing but crickets to offer here, not even a fundiefied black square or a vague prayer.  They're the ones in the best position to actually enact meaningful change and pardon me for not holding my breath on that one!

[Sweet Caroline]

On 6/2/2020 at 5:46 AM, CaseyGrace said:

 I don't support whitesplaining to frustrated  individuals about how police are great just  because your  son or husband is a police officer and you think they are great. there needs to be a huge overhaul of the police system in this country because things are getting out of hand they are tear gassing journalists and children! absolutely reprehensible. 

I agree with you that there needs to be an overhaul of the system. My husband and son would agree with you. They are frustrated when they don’t get the support they need from their superiors. Ask my son in Dallas how his chief was MIA for several months.  Without proper leadership, there will be chaos. Someone mentioned longer training for officers. Not only longer, but proper training. Dallas has a 9 month police academy.  Chicago has 16 weeks. I don’t have the knowledge to know if one is better than the other.

I know I said that my husband and son are good people, and you downvoted that. I don’t have a problem with that because you do not know my family or their experiences. I don’t know you or your experiences. 

I am a teacher. I have worked with some of the best teachers, but I have also worked with terrible principals. When I worked under an absent, uninvolved leader, it was absolutely reflected in the attitudes of the teachers. It is harder to do your best when no one is encouraging you or backing you. The same is true for my students. Why would they want to do their best if I didn’t encourage and push them?

I see this in policing as well. We absolutely need to change leadership to improve our police officers. My husband and son are only one person in their respectful departments. I don’t know how much positive change they can bring to their departments. My son recently posted this quote on Facebook:

”With the world so set on tearing itself apart, it don’t seem like such a bad thing to me to wanna put a little bit of it back together. “ - Desmond T. Doss

[CaricatureQualities]

"Lord, how I wept when I came upon

a land whose people thought that they

could make boats sail the stormy

ocean between the color of my skin

and my humanity."

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Love came to me and said:

What do you want of me?

Save me I said, save me

and Love said:

If you knew the price

of coming to you,

you would ask nothing

but would give."

 

- Henry Dumas

 

Murdered by police in Harlem 1968

age 33