Black Lives Matter

[SorenaJ]

So if a nurse or a doctor kills someone on purpose, are all nurses and doctors bad? 

[Pecansforeveryone]

No less an entity than the ACLU has defended the rights of the KKK and neo-nazis to march and assemble. I am perfectly willing to hear a nuanced, thoughtful argument from the anti-police crowd about maybe that's not feasible in light of Charlottesville. Anyone, anyone? Bueller, Bueller? 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Pecansforeveryone
Add a word

[nausicaa]

Since we don't have a Floyd protest thread guess I'll post here. 

The Daughters of the Confederacy Building in Richmond, VA is on fire. I don't mean part of it is burnt, the thing is up in flames. 

Part of the iron fence from the JEB Stuart Monument was used as a battering ram to attempt to breach the door.

If you wrote this into a Hollywood script, they'd be like "Take the symbolism down a notch, eh?" 

[JillyO]

12 hours ago, Sweet Caroline said:

Ok folks, all this talk recently of Bro Gary finally got the best of me. I need a distraction from all the unrest in our country right now. My husband is in law enforcement in Chicago and my son is a police officer in Dallas. The pictures my son is ending us are disgusting. Injured police horses, squad cars on fire. Chicago is just as bad. They are ripping protective gear off officers. What is wrong with people?

What is wrong with people? Seriously?

I'll tell you what's wrong. Many people in this country are sick and tired of black men and women being callously murdered by the police, and there being no consequences. White LEO are literally getting away with murder. Have you seen the video of George Floyd begging for his life? Have you heard about how the police killed Breonna Taylor in her own home? Have you seen the many videos of police tear-gassing peaceful protesters over the last few days? Have you read the reports of police attacking first-aid stations where nurses were treating protesters already hurt by law enforcement? Have you seen the footage of a police car driving into a group of peaceful protesters who had to dive out of the way to avoid getting run over? Have you looked photos of people who were sitting and chanting with their hands up being hit by rubber bullets?

I certainly don't condone burning down stores or police cars, and certainly not injuring police horses. But give me a fucking break. What's wrong is the systemic racism in the country. That's what's disgusting, and that's wrong with people.

[Babysitter]

14 hours ago, Sweet Caroline said:

Ok folks, all this talk recently of Bro Gary finally got the best of me. I need a distraction from all the unrest in our country right now. My husband is in law enforcement in Chicago and my son is a police officer in Dallas. The pictures my son is ending us are disgusting. Injured police horses, squad cars on fire. Chicago is just as bad. They are ripping protective gear off officers. What is wrong with people?

So I started with the first thread of Bro Gary. Again, what is wrong with him?  He is all kinds of special. 

Please keep my guys in prayer. 

Dallas you say. Was your son the one to shoot a girl getting groceries, aiming for her eye?

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267035077403242496

Feel free to check the whole thread, which involved police marching by in the dozens shooting people on their front porches in Minneapolis, shooting nurses trying to help injured people, throwing tear gas at peaceful protestors, attacking journalists, pulling down a man's mask (who has his hands in the air) and pepper spraying him in the face, shoving an elderly man with a cane who is just standing there, opening the car door and slamming it into someone standing there.

 

That's whats wrong with people. 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Coconut Flan
Photo under spoiler per member requests.

[HeartsAFundie]

10 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

I haven't seen a single cop join a protest in solidarity. 

Check out Flint, Michigan.

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/sheriff-joins-peaceful-protest-in-flint-michigan/

[Someone Out There]

9 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

There is so much unrest and with so many people out of work, I don't see it getting any better.

There are quotes around meals and anarchy.  Alfred Henry Lewis stated "There are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy.", I've also found articles from the UK in 2011 and MI5 apparently judges it as being 4 meals away from Anarchy.  If you have a lot of dissaffected unemployed who aren't sure where their next meal is going to come from then that adds a triggering factor.  There is a reason that the ancient Romans provided "Bread and Circuses" to the masses.

Then there is the fact that due to unemployment many people have significantly more time on their hands.  Ultimately the racial issues and general dissafection with the various levels of governments in the USA has been bubbling under the surface (or above at times) for a long time in the USA.  There is potentially enough dissafection around now for it too completely erupt.

Interestingly someone on the radio here (Australia) a year or 2 back (definately post Trump becoming president) was thinking that if Trump wasn't re-elected there would potentially be a second civil war in the USA with the divides being populous metropolitan areas vs rural areas.  I suspect that it is possible it will occur either way and potentially with different divides to what that person was thinking.

[PennySycamore]

Thank  you, @JillyO and @Babysitter for your eloquent, heartbreaking posts.  

A few months ago,  I apologized to one of my daughters that we'd not progressed more toward racial justice in this country.  Another daughter shared a post by the principal of her daughter's school in Spartanburg who is a black man.  He was talking about a fishing hole along the Pacolet River where his dad had taken his brothers and him in the 60s and 70s.  They never feared for their safety from whites back then, but they've encountered white men threatening them , for being on land they own, in the past few years.  

[Black Aliss]

Spoiler

I wish I could say I'm shocked, but I'm not. Legacy Christian Academy's official statement is that they are offended, saddened, disheartened, blah, blah, blah, deeply committed to the sanctity of human life but privacy concerns prevent them from saying what, if any, consequences will ensue from the behavior of these students.
@mods: please feel free to move his post to another topic if it doesn't belong here.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Black Aliss

[SunnySide]

59 minutes ago, Babysitter said:

Dallas you say. Was your son the one to shoot a girl getting groceries, aiming for her eye?

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267035077403242496

Feel free to check the whole thread, which involved police marching by in the dozens shooting people on their front porches in Minneapolis, shooting nurses trying to help injured people, throwing tear gas at peaceful protestors, attacking journalists, pulling down a man's mask (who has his hands in the air) and pepper spraying him in the face, shoving an elderly man with a cane who is just standing there, opening the car door and slamming it into someone standing there.

 

That's whats wrong with people. 

Babysitter. I understand you’re upset but there’s absolutely no need to ask if OPs family was the shooter. 

Clearly this is none of my business and should be between you and Sweet Caroline but honestly I’m going to butt in and say you need to back off.

Because someone may not understand the social implications  of an extremely serious issue is no reason to ask if their relative shot someone. Also. Why isn’t such a graphic picture under a warning? Or at least hidden? A little decency can go a long way. 

[FiveAcres]

48 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

Thank  you, @JillyO and @Babysitter for your eloquent, heartbreaking posts.  

A few months ago,  I apologized to one of my daughters that we'd not progressed more toward racial justice in this country.  Another daughter shared a post by the principal of her daughter's school in Spartanburg who is a black man.  He was talking about a fishing hole along the Pacolet River where his dad had taken his brothers and him in the 60s and 70s.  They never feared for their safety from whites back then, but they've encountered white men threatening them , for being on land they own, in the past few years.  

Right now, I am more worried about my black relatives, especially the male ones, encountering thugs wearing badges than I am about the badge wearers themselves. I do wish people wouldn't harm police horses or police dogs: they are not volunteers.

My father (deceased) was a police officer and retired as a detective sergeant. He was also as racist as the day was long, and I recognized that even as a teenager four decades ago.

[ignorantobserver]

I look at these issues from afar, and find them really shocking, especially the fact that police officers rarely seem to be punished for wrongdoings. But still, I very much doubt every single police officer in the US is racist, violent and willing to go after civilians ! The pictures I see in the media look like some cities have basically descended into a civil war. If I had relatives working in law enforcement in the US, I wouldn't sleep through the night these days !
Sweet Caroline, I hope your son and husband are safe and you don't worry too much ! I very much hope they don't get hurt or find themselves in a situation where they have to hurt people. Good police officers are absolutely essential for a functioning society. I am deeply sorry for everyone who finds himself affected by the current state of civil unrest. Please stay safe ! (And sorry for the off-topic discussion...)

 

 

[Babysitter]

1 hour ago, SunnySide said:

Babysitter. I understand you’re upset but there’s absolutely no need to ask if OPs family was the shooter. 

Clearly this is none of my business and should be between you and Sweet Caroline but honestly I’m going to butt in and say you need to back off.

Because someone may not understand the social implications  of an extremely serious issue is no reason to ask if their relative shot someone. Also. Why isn’t such a graphic picture under a warning? Or at least hidden? A little decency can go a long way. 

Look, I'm sorry her son and husband are scared, really, I am. I hope they don't get hurt or hurt other people. But I don't appreciate that her post makes it seem like the police are innocent little babies in sandbox being attacked by big scary men for no reason. Like we didn't all see a video where a cop murders a man and three other cops stand by and watch. Like a week before that police didn't break into the wrong apartment, going after people already in custody, murder a women and then arrest her boyfriend for shooting back at the plainclothes men that murdered his girlfriend. There are thousands of cases like this. Police have all the power, and they've been murdering, attacking, raping, and stealing from people for decades with no consequence. Where's their decency? 

I don't think people should be hurting horses or burning things, but I also don't think we should let people cry wolf and act all innocent. She shouldn't be able bring the topic up in a random thread and ask for prayers while acting like the families of those murdered don't matter. She doesn't understand what's going on? Fine, is she not worthy of an explanation? Shouldn't she know why people might be upset? If people are misinformed do you not believe we should inform them or should we let them go around spouting whatever they want, manipulating people to agree with them and ignoring the other side of things. People shouldn't be allowed to spread their misinformation freely without other explaining why they're wrong. If progress is going to be made, people should be allowed to have conversations.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Babysitter
seriously, grammar is not my strongsuit

[WarriorJane]

11 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

It's a job, and part of the job is to protect other police. Until every single murderer is brought to justice, and the remaining ones drop the military grade shit, they all are at fault. No amount of lip service will change that.

We don't even know if those are actual police, or just people wearing police costumes. Normally, police are not allowed to express political opinions or join in marches in uniforms.  

The worship of police and military in this country is out of control. And those who excuse it with "not all cops" are basically saying "black lives don't matter." 

 

This is completely irrational.   You're reinforcing the insane notion that EITHER black lives matter OR blue lives matter.   Do you not see the problem here?  

[FiveAcres]

12 minutes ago, Babysitter said:

 

I don't think people should be hurting horses or burning things, but I also don't think we should let people cry wolf and act all innocent. She shouldn't be able bring the topic up in a random thread and ask for prayers while acting like the families of those murdered don't matter. She doesn't understand what's going on? Fine, is she not worthy of an explanation? Shouldn't she know why people might be upset? If people are misinformed do you not believe we should inform them or should we let them go around spouting whatever they wants, manipulating people to agree with them and ignoring the other side of things. People shouldn't be allowed to spread their misinformation freely without other explaining why they're wrong. If progress is going to be made, people should be allowed to have conversations.

 

Yes: those of us with black friends and relatives didn't chime in here asking for prayers for their safety. And for those  wondering: demographically I am white, middle-aged, female and middle class. Interacial marriage and adoption is a thing: and I have a huge extended family.

ETA: I am beyond middle-aged but mostly don't feel it.

Edited May 31, 2020 by FiveAcres
remembered how old I am

[ignorantobserver]

5 minutes ago, Babysitter said:

Jill's probably scheming to get the little one with Tessie or Hannah or something. Start them off now hanging around each other, let their hearts grow and in four five years when they're legal they'll be the cute childhood sweethearts getting married. Their big sisters were bridesmaids in each others wedding and now they're getting married! So cute!

Oh, please no ! But frankly, there is not much reason to worry : given Jill's track record, it seems unlikely that she could last for four or five years without alienating her new friends and moving to another state. It's already pretty impressive that she managed to not scare off Nathan by now !

Edited May 31, 2020 by ignorantobserver

[EmmieJ]

12 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

It's a job, and part of the job is to protect other police. Until every single murderer is brought to justice, and the remaining ones drop the military grade shit, they all are at fault. No amount of lip service will change that.

We don't even know if those are actual police, or just people wearing police costumes. Normally, police are not allowed to express political opinions or join in marches in uniforms.  

The worship of police and military in this country is out of control. And those who excuse it with "not all cops" are basically saying "black lives don't matter." 

 

I have had to call 911 a few times in my life, and I was glad to have police respond.  I've also been furious over the actions of some police officers, and have marched in protest.  I recognize my white privilege, coupled with the fact I live in a progressive county in a blue state.  The local police and sheriff don't seem quick on the trigger.  The local protests I've been in were peaceful and no one got gassed or otherwise harassed by the cops.  I acknowledge there is great inequality but I'm not going to demonize an entire profession because of the rotten apples.  However, every law enforcement agency needs to do vastly better at screening applicants for those mentally and morally unsuitable for the job, and weeding out those on the job who don't follow procedure.  One not lethal strike and you're demoted, given retraining, and matched with a partner who monitors you.  Two strikes and you're out.  In addition, we need a nationwide database of cops fired for serious abuses of power, so they aren't hired by a different department.  Those are just some thoughts, but I don't have the answers.

And now I shall put you on my ignore list.

Sorry Coconut Flan, I posted before I saw your comment.

Edited May 31, 2020 by EmmieJ

[MamaJunebug]

 

Anybody who thinks, right now,  is scared for POC, for paler people, for those of good heart trying to do their duty, run their business  

Asking for prayers / thoughts for family is a very old and precious FJ tradition and is not mutually exclusive of any struggles toward justice.

It’s never, in my 14 or 15 years of participation, meant “prayers for mine and screw yours.” 

I normally avoid conflicts here but I had to say this. And I’ve said all I’m going to about it. 

  

Edited May 31, 2020 by MamaJunebug

[LacyMay]

I started responding in the BLM thread but was having a hard time summarizing what was going on here for context... And I was afraid of hijacking another thread. And I'm a little concerned that a thread about BLM might not be the best place to discuss policing because I can see this being a triggering topic for some (especially POC) 

This topic has been niggling at me for years. Because I want to be an ally but I don't think dismissing the entire policing system as needing to be destroyed and dismantled is going to solve anything. What's the alternative to not fixing the system and just burning it down? Anarchy? Thanks. I'll pass. I think a shift towards more community policing could be beneficial (ie the Shonrim Jewish police force who are unarmed and can't make arrests but can diffuse situations at a community level) 

One thing that really frustrates me is so much anti police sentiment that I see comes from upper middle class white allies who have never needed the police. I wonder if maybe there's a type of privilege that comes from never having to be in a situation where you've needed the policing system. Like @EmmieJ I've been in situations where I've needed the police (my mom was in an abusive relationship when I was younger and I had to call them, I was also the victim of a sexual assault as a young adult.) And I've been greatful for their services. It doesn't make the system any less broken and it doesn't erase the fact that I still come with the inherent privilege of being a white women. 

I've also experienced bad police who don't deserve to wear the uniform. The system is broken. 

 

 

 

[Ozlsn]

5 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

  Hide contents

I wish I could say I'm shocked, but I'm not. Legacy Christian Academy's official statement is that they are offended, saddened, disheartened, blah, blah, blah, deeply committed to the sanctity of human life but privacy concerns prevent them from saying what, if any, consequences will ensue from the behavior of these students.
@mods: please feel free to move his post to another topic if it doesn't belong here.

 

I don't get why people feel the need to "prove" that it wasn't the guy kneeling on his neck that caused the death, it was some random preexisting condition. Kneeling on someone's neck, in fairly controlled conditions when you know they will get up and help you if you start being unable to breathe is a bit different. Maybe we should try doing it to them in a situation where they are powerless and afraid, and see if their opinion changes.

6 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

MI5 apparently judges it as being 4 meals away from Anarchy.

I've always heard 3, glad MI5 reckons we have a meal's leeway there.  There is a MLK quote about rioting being the voice of the powerless which I think is appropriate here (less so in my-sports-team-lost situations, where it is the voice of the privileged drunk and disorderly.)

[Sweet Caroline]

7 hours ago, Babysitter said:

Dallas you say. Was your son the one to shoot a girl getting groceries, aiming for her eye?

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267035077403242496

Feel free to check the whole thread, which involved police marching by in the dozens shooting people on their front porches in Minneapolis, shooting nurses trying to help injured people, throwing tear gas at peaceful protestors, attacking journalists, pulling down a man's mask (who has his hands in the air) and pepper spraying him in the face, shoving an elderly man with a cane who is just standing there, opening the car door and slamming it into someone standing there.

 

That's whats wrong with people. 

 

  Hide contents

 

No, my son did not shoot a girl in the eye. He has never shot anyone. He was stationed downtown supervising the peaceful protesters and protecting them from the rioting. He assisted the protestors to exits out of downtown and then made sure everyone obeyed curfew. 

[Sweet Caroline]

5 hours ago, Babysitter said:

Look, I'm sorry her son and husband are scared, really, I am. I hope they don't get hurt or hurt other people. But I don't appreciate that her post makes it seem like the police are innocent little babies in sandbox being attacked by big scary men for no reason. Like we didn't all see a video where a cop murders a man and three other cops stand by and watch. Like a week before that police didn't break into the wrong apartment, going after people already in custody, murder a women and then arrest her boyfriend for shooting back at the plainclothes men that murdered his girlfriend. There are thousands of cases like this. Police have all the power, and they've been murdering, attacking, raping, and stealing from people for decades with no consequence. Where's their decency? 

I don't think people should be hurting horses or burning things, but I also don't think we should let people cry wolf and act all innocent. She shouldn't be able bring the topic up in a random thread and ask for prayers while acting like the families of those murdered don't matter. She doesn't understand what's going on? Fine, is she not worthy of an explanation? Shouldn't she know why people might be upset? If people are misinformed do you not believe we should inform them or should we let them go around spouting whatever they want, manipulating people to agree with them and ignoring the other side of things. People shouldn't be allowed to spread their misinformation freely without other explaining why they're wrong. If progress is going to be made, people should be allowed to have conversations.

 

All I asked was to keep my family in prayer during a stressful time. This blog helps me keep my mind off things that happen in my life, and I appreciate the people here. 

Maybe I should have elaborated more, but I did not think this was the place. I absolutely agree that there are bad cops out there. I like to think that my son and husband are good cops who try to make their communities a better place. There are also good citizens and bad citizens. That is why the police are needed. I like to think that George Floyd was a good person, and he did not deserve to have his life taken from him by another man. 

But if you are asking for more information or an explanation, my husband and son both became interested in law enforcement because my husbands grandfather was a sheriff in a small town. He was shot and killed in the line of duty. His name is on the National Law Enforcement Memorial in Washington DC. So we completely understand what violence can do to a family, or have a life taken to soon by the hand she of another person. I am finished talking about this. 

[Antimony]

1 hour ago, Sweet Caroline said:

Maybe I should have elaborated more, but I did not think this was the place. I absolutely agree that there are bad cops out there. I like to think that my son and husband are good cops who try to make their communities a better place. There are also good citizens and bad citizens. That is why the police are needed. I like to think that George Floyd was a good person, and he did not deserve to have his life taken from him by another man. 

If you husband and son do not stand up to bad cops, if they do not see deep rooted poison in this system, if they continue to follow a system that is racist and broken and abuses the power that it was given, then they aren't good cops. Sorry.

I'm glad that you "like to think" George Floyd was a good man who didn't deserve to be murdered by a police officer and have the rest of the department cover it up as a "medical incident" until they were confronted with the evidence (call it what it is) but I live in the Twin Cities, and I am part of this community, so I can say without "liking to think" that he was a good person and he didn't deserve this. 

 

I didn't come here for this, I came here to get away from this for a brief moment because all I can hear is helicopters over my home, but here we are.

[Jinder Roles]

I think the point trying to be made is that police brutality  is not just about a “a few bad apples” but a whole system (originated in slavery days & in conflict with Native Americans ) which often serves to terrorize and brutalize minorities, particularly black people. It’s not even only an American problem. 
 

The argument becomes baseless the second you start speaking of “good“and „bad“ cops. That’s not even the point. It’s the system.  

Personally I don’t believe the system is broken at all. This is one of its key features. At the very least, it needs serious reform. 
 

 

[Caroline]

1 hour ago, Antimony said:

If you husband and son do not stand up to bad cops, if they do not see deep rooted poison in this system, if they continue to follow a system that is racist and broken and abuses the power that it was given, then they aren't good cops. Sorry.

I'm glad that you "like to think" George Floyd was a good man who didn't deserve to be murdered by a police officer and have the rest of the department cover it up as a "medical incident" until they were confronted with the evidence (call it what it is) but I live in the Twin Cities, and I am part of this community, so I can say without "liking to think" that he was a good person and he didn't deserve this. 

 

I didn't come here for this, I came here to get away from this for a brief moment because all I can hear is helicopters over my home, but here we are.

I'm so sorry this is happening to your community and to so many other communities in our country.  I have friends in places like Chicago and Raleigh, NC, and it sound nightmarish.  I completely agree that the most important problem we have to deal with as a country is the overt racism perpetrated towards POC every day.  We have to face as a society that our entire existence began with the deliberate killing and enslaving of native peoples.  We have never faced that reality and until we do I don't know how racism of all kinds will end.  The answer in my opinion is education, but people have to choose enlightenment for that to work. We could start by telling the real stories of native Americans and black people in this country.  So many things I didn't learn until relatively recently.  We have to do better.