Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[Anonymousguest]

30 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Calvinism really believes that those who aren't "elected" are going to Hell?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't?  What kind of loving deity would do that to a baby...or millions or billions of them?

It's more nuanced than that, but essentially, yes. God's elect are saved. But the irresistible grace means that all who seek him are part of the elect. I don't know about the baby thing, I've heard even die hard reformed theologians say that all babies go to heaven, but I think that's inconsistent. Only the elect babies should go to heaven, right? 

[THERetroGamerNY]

Going back to what@Palimpsest had mentioned, concerning nightmarish Venn diagrams... Those bullet points I gave are like ... Hmmm... a sort of list of what the official governing bodies state, but the moment the stuff hits local churches and individual people, things instantly get fuzzy and grey it seems.

This is what has led to all the fractured sects in Christianity... And what spins off into cults occasionally.

This is also why most sensible ministries put a clear "Statement of Faith" on their pages, to avoid confusion - something this moron didn't do, but instead opted for lengthy FAQs and vague, disturbing BS.

He also strikes me as having a core line of thinking that most cults follow:

Start with a base sect.

Observe a few verses in a way that are not in line with that sect (say, Psalms 127).

Get a conviction on these few verses, and start to extrapolate from it (since no birth control, clearly women need to be "real" women, and men be "real" men.)

Keep extrapolating...

Start your own ministry...

[nelliebelle1197]

I think in the end what a lot of thes guys believe is "start your own ministry..."

[THERetroGamerNY]

I'm surprised he never talked about slavery. I mean, since girls don't need consent, and treating people as property (and marrying-off girls ASAP) is part and parcel of the same era...

Oh, and let's not forget polygamy! I'm still waiting for a Fundie Quiverfull polygamist reality show... 50 kids, 5 wives, and counting.

[mango_fandango]

1 minute ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

I'm surprised he never talked about slavery. I mean, since girls don't need consent, and treating people as property (and marrying-off girls ASAP) is part and parcel of the same era...

Oh, and let's not forget polygamy! I'm still waiting for a Fundie Quiverfull polygamist reality show... 50 kids, 5 wives, and counting.

Sister Wives is probably closest. Not as fundie and the wives situation is less crazy but it's probably the closest right now

[quiversR4hunting]

On Sunday, May 08, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Mela99 said:

OH wow.... Too bad the dates don't work. DH will be away for the week and I have a baby shower, day trip, and tickets to Lewis Black that weekend. I'd have gone though. DH would have, too - I just showed him the website and he said he'd love to go for snark fodder.

The dates don't work for me either, bummer! 

[FundieFarmer]

I echo almost everything TRGNY said, with a tweak to women in the church. Regarding Calvinism and women in the church...the more reformed you are, the fewer offices women can hold. A great example of this is in Presbyterian denominations. The more liberal denominations will allow women to be pastors, while more conservative will only allow deaconesses, while the most conservative will only allow them to teach women and children. Orthodox will see women in only those positions and pretty much following the governing documents to a T while the others will be a little more willing to play around with them.

It gets confusing because Reformed can mean so so many different things depending on how orthodox the congregation is about it.

[THERetroGamerNY]

Gawd.@mango_fandango I forgot about that show...

[nelliebelle1197]

30 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Sister Wives is probably closest. Not as fundie and the wives situation is less crazy but it's probably the closest right now

Did you really say "sister wives" and "less crazy" in the same sentence??

 

[dramallama]

4 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Reformed Christian is generally...
They are against abortion.
They are for birth control, believing family size is between them and God.
The Bible is infallible.
Capital punishment is considered a last resort by them.
They believe in the separation of church and state.
They reject evolution.
They support dancing.
They are against divorce.
I think they are generally amillennialist? I'm a little fuzzy on that.
They are against movies that do not promote Godly values.
Homosexuality is a sin.
They accept the morning-after pill, because they view rape as horrific.
They allow women in ecclesiastical office.
They strong advise all children to attend a religious school.
They do hold meetings to discuss how their beliefs, and theology, should adapt with new scientific information, how that info is viewed against the Bible, etc. This has led to letting women hold ecclesiastical office, etc.

 

I am in no way an expert on reformed Christianity/Calvinism, but I will say that in my experience  - the lines I have bolded are not necessarily true.  The people I have encountered who heavily identify themselves as "reformed" and are really into being "reformed" are literal 6-day, young Earth creationists who believe the government should be a Christian theocracy, women are to be submissive to men in all things, very pro-death penalty, anti-"morning after pill", Jesus rode a dino-horse, climate change is a hoax, etc etc.  The particular individuals I am thinking of attend a PCA church.  I think, like anything else, there are degrees.  I'd argue that the "reformed"/Calvinist title really only indicates a belief in TULIP/predestination, and the rest may vary among particular denominations/regions/any number of other factors.

EDIT:  And now, after reading further, I see you said pretty much the same thing, haha.  This is what I get for replying before reading all new posts.

[FundieFarmer]

Also IME a lot of the "young, restless and reformed" generation tend to be reformed only in religion and only as it pertains to themselves. They lean socially liberal and don't really care what others do. They choose science over fiction believe religion is a private thing. I'm wondering if we'll see a shift in the reformed culture as those people grow up and take over from the old guard.

[THERetroGamerNY]

@dramallama, that's cool. I had said it was "generally" because I knew experience, views, etc will vary... And I pretty much typed up those points from memory, so an error doesn't surprise me.

I think Reformed Christianity is its own sect, isn't it? And there are different flavors of it?

So a strict Reformed theology, with Calvinism would be in line with what you say I guess?

You know why this is all so damned confusing? There's a Reformed Church of America... A Reformed Church of the United States... I probably had the wrong damned one in mind! lol

[Florita]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I think in the end what a lot of thes guys believe is "start your own ministry..."

Old, mainline denominations (Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, et.al) have education/training and ordination requirements. If you meet the requirements you get assigned to a parish or church. In the American non-denominationals or generic baptist churches no training is necessary, and no one just hands you a church.  Someone raised in those churches who wants to go into ministry has to strike out on his own. Which is why you have Valley View Bible Baptist across the street from Canyon Vista Bible Baptist. And also why the DIY churches are a hotbed of personality cults, bad theology, and spiritual abuse.

[dramallama]

1 minute ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

@dramallama, that's cool. I had said it was "generally" because I knew experience, views, etc will vary... And I pretty much typed up those points from memory, so an error doesn't surprise me.

I think Reformed Christianity is its own sect, isn't it? And there are different flavors of it?

So a strict Reformed theology, with Calvinism would be in line with what you say I guess?

You know why this is all so damned confusing? There's a Reformed Church of America... A Reformed Church of the United States... I probably had the wrong damned one in mind! lol

Aren't Presbyterians reformed?  I honestly had no idea there was a specific "Reformed Church"  denomination/s.  My experience is limited to what I've read online and one particular infuriating Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee-smitten couple who are suuuuper into describing themselves as "reformed" in the first sentence of every social media profile and are PCA Presbyterians, haha.  

[FundieFarmer]

There are actually a bunch of reformed denominations, and then independent reformed churches too. And then there are Presbyterian churches that are reformed but not entirely Calvinist, and then some that are Calvinist but not totally reformed, and some that are both, etc, etc. Then you've got four point Calvinists but not 5, and on and on and on. It never ends. Plus you've got reformed baptists, and whatever other denominations are reformed but not, and all that jazz.

You did a great job typing that from memory. I've been various degrees of Presbyterian since I was 9, and still get confused. I've learned a lot about my own denomination here on FJ.

Aren't Presbyterians reformed?  I honestly had no idea there was a specific "Reformed Church"  denomination/s.  My experience is limited to what I've read online and one particular infuriating Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee-smitten couple who are suuuuper into describing themselves as "reformed" in the first sentence of every social media profile and are PCA Presbyterians, haha.  

I grew up in a Presbyterian church that was neither Calvinist nor Reformed...so nope, not all Presbys are reformed

It's confusing AF hahaha

[THERetroGamerNY]

Yeah, and there are a couple of them...

Here's the Reformed Church in America... https://www.rca.org

And here's the Reformed Church of the United States... http://www.rcus.org

So which the heck is this particular fundie?! lol

[dramallama]

7 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

It's confusing AF hahaha

Apparently!  This thread has been an education for sure.

[THERetroGamerNY]

So did Vaughn just say he was "reformed"?! As I can now see that could mean two very different things!

This jackass is CLEARLY not good at clear communication...

[HarryPotterFan]

40 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

There are actually a bunch of reformed denominations, and then independent reformed churches too. And then there are Presbyterian churches that are reformed but not entirely Calvinist, and then some that are Calvinist but not totally reformed, and some that are both, etc, etc. Then you've got four point Calvinists but not 5, and on and on and on. It never ends. Plus you've got reformed baptists, and whatever other denominations are reformed but not, and all that jazz.

You did a great job typing that from memory. I've been various degrees of Presbyterian since I was 9, and still get confused. I've learned a lot about my own denomination here on FJ.

I grew up in a Presbyterian church that was neither Calvinist nor Reformed...so nope, not all Presbys are reformed

It's confusing AF hahaha

This shit is way too confusing.

[mango_fandango]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Did you really say "sister wives" and "less crazy" in the same sentence??

 

I meant less crazy than five wives and counting hahaha!! Stupid phrasing. Sister Wives is batshit and Kody is a douche.

[Jinder Roles]

2 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

 

This is also why most sensible ministries put a clear "Statement of Faith" on their pages, to avoid confusion - something this moron didn't do, but instead opted for lengthy FAQs and vague, disturbing BS.

 

Trust me, he did that on purpose. Vaughn Ohlman is full of bullshit and he knows it. If he was clear and concise, everyone else would see it too. Convoluted explanations and long, confusing FAQs means changing definitions when it suits him to maintain control. It's all about control and indoctrination. No common sense allowed. 

Side Note: I like VAIOPP, sounds like an onomatopoeia;

 There are several loud VOIAPP!! VOAIPP!! VOIAPPs!! as Jinder slams her head into the wall repeatedly while reading Vaughn's creepy descriptions about underage girls' breasts.

[gibbsgirls]

2 hours ago, dramallama said:

 The people I have encountered who heavily identify themselves as "reformed" and are really into being "reformed" are literal 6-day, young Earth creationists who believe the government should be a Christian theocracy, women are to be submissive to men in all things, very pro-death penalty, anti-"morning after pill", Jesus rode a dino-horse, climate change is a hoax, etc etc.  The particular individuals I am thinking of attend a PCA church. 

In my fundy to fundy-lite days this was very true in the PCA church we belonged to. Many were IBLP and a few added the ATI with it. And we were in a suburb of the Nation's Capital. There are pockets of these people everywhere.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Aaaargh! I hoped my fellow FJers knew everything and would have clarified things for me too, but now I am more confused than before! 

Thanks everyone though, you have tried hard. My personal problem is that I grew up Catholic and the RCC has a very clear statement of faith and even if there are different charismas (read: ways to read and live that statement) basically you accept it and you're in or you don't and you're out. Also in Italy the absolute majority of people is/was Catholic at least culturally and when someone says "church" there's no doubt regarding which one. I never met a Presbyterian or a Baptist or a Methodist irl. I only have a friend who is evangelical but we never ever talked about religion. I know Calvinism and Lutherans from studying history. I remember I read something on how different  takes on grace/deeds helped shape lay culture too in different nations. But this is the extent of my knowledge. 

Now that you all are saying that practically there are as many different types as people managed to come up with,  I totally despair of ever understanding much about the different denominations. Sigh.

On the meaning of the word "reformed" though I had a sudden thought: does it mean that they claim a stricter link to the first Calvinism, the one of the "Reform"? But wasn't the "Reform" a Lutheran thing? Very confused.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

Most of my Presbyterian experience was on the more liberal side. (Presbyterian Church USA) More recently, a family member who is still a member of a local PCUSA congregation told me that their head pastor was apologizing for being really tired at Sunday morning services. She had been out late Saturday night helping people get bailed out of jail and get home after they got arrested as part of a protest against LGBT discrimination. As I understand it, individual congregations can vary, even within the same denomination. 

It makes for some difficulty in categorizing groups, but I'm glad no single group can dictate to me how to be a Christian.

[uber frau]

Presbyterian refers to a style of church governance, 'Reformed' refers to a doctrinal tradition.

Many (but not all)Presby churches also subscribe to a Reformed theology (or they did back in the day). 

Some (but not all) Reformed churches have a system of governance that looks fairly similar to the Presby one.

Reformed churches are more likely to have their roots in continental Europe,rather than the British Isles (but that is a generalisation & there are plenty of  churches/denominations that have evolved and blended and split over time. What u see  now can be very different from whatever was instituted however many years ago.)

I think whoever described Christianity as the messiest&most complicated Venn diagram in the world is pretty much right.