Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[Imagine20]

This discussion about the meaning of "reformed" hasn't even touched the surface of all of the differences in the Christian faith. It really boggles the mind just how many flavors there are when it comes to Biblical interpretation. It's fascinating. 

Thank you to all of the posters who have added to that discussion. I grew up WELS Lutheran (was excommunicated in my 20s) and I always wondered about the meaning of reformed and about Election. We never really touched on doctrinal differences during Bible studues in my parochial school. 

[FundieFarmer]

This discussion about the meaning of "reformed" hasn't even touched the surface of all of the differences in the Christian faith. It really boggles the mind just how many flavors there are when it comes to Biblical interpretation. It's fascinating. 

Thank you to all of the posters who have added to that discussion. I grew up WELS Lutheran (was excommunicated in my 20s) and I always wondered about the meaning of reformed and about Election. We never really touched on doctrinal differences during Bible studues in my parochial school. 

That's so true. Christianity, like every other faith, is very much an iceberg when it comes to what's really under the surface of the most obvious mainstream faith divisions.

[CyborgKin]

Just stumbled across this:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2013/08/quoting-quiverfull-answering-the-botkin-sisters/

A fight for the ages, terrible and creepy vs terrible and creepy, it's Ohlman vs the Botkinettes! LOL

[CTRLZero]

6 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Just stumbled across this:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2013/08/quoting-quiverfull-answering-the-botkin-sisters/

A fight for the ages, terrible and creepy vs terrible and creepy, it's Ohlman vs the Botkinettes! LOL

Thank you for posting this.  He's been at this young marriage game for quite a few years, hasn't he?  I still shudder over his way of offloading children:

Please find a young man in the church and convince him that he needs a wife, and then give him my daughter. No, he does not have to court her, your word, your judgement is good enough.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

8 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Just stumbled across this:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2013/08/quoting-quiverfull-answering-the-botkin-sisters/

A fight for the ages, terrible and creepy vs terrible and creepy, it's Ohlman vs the Botkinettes! LOL

He is truly obsessed with breasts and other people's sex life.

Quote

when he has a  need, let him come for her, and bring her to my house, to his bed, and let them dwell together, as husband and wife, trying to serve God and learning, from each other, from us, and most of all from God. Let them be fruitful now, in their youth. Let him have this good thing now, in his youth. Let her bless him, as he loves her. Let him have no need of spoil, and rejoice always in her breasts. 

VOIAPP, contrarily to other fundies, seems to understand that youth may have a need for a sex life. His solution? Give them a good sex ed, access to contraception, healthy boundaries, safe sex notions etc. Marry them as soon as possible to a complete stranger, binding them for life without the possibility of ever change their minds! A brilliant solution! *sarcasm

ETA Because FURNICATION! (please read with doomsday voice tone) is the only thing VOIAPP can think of the WORST sin evah.

[Baabaablacksheep]

On May 6, 2016 at 11:15 AM, refugee said:

8 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Just stumbled across this:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2013/08/quoting-quiverfull-answering-the-botkin-sisters/

A fight for the ages, terrible and creepy vs terrible and creepy, it's Ohlman vs the Botkinettes! LOL

Sorry, quotes messed up on this - but thanks for posting, totally fascinating! What's funny is that his criticisms of the Botkins are totally fair, even though his conclusions are arguably worse.

[Jinder Roles]

In response to the various posts about those who are the Elect getting a pass to be terrible; wouldn't that prove they aren't the Elect? I'm not and wasn't raised Calvinist, but isn't doing good works and being godly proof that you are part of the Elect? If you're an asshole or Hitler then doesn't that mean you're not doing  God's work and therefore are not part of His chosen? The way I interpreted Calvinism (from my very brief research) is that doing good works and being godly is validation for yourself that you are speshul snowflake and God loves you. So doing good works is more for yourself than for other people. 

The idea that if Hitler accepted Jesus as his personal Saviour he will go to heaven aligns more with Arminianism and the belief that God's grace is available to everyone. I think Arminianism also argues that one can fall from grace and lose salvation. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Baabaablacksheep said:

Sorry, quotes messed up on this - but thanks for posting, totally fascinating! What's funny is that his criticisms of the Botkins are totally fair, even though his conclusions are arguably worse.

Vaughn Ohlson is certainly spot on about Geoff Botkin: "And Daddy is a problem."  Absolutely.  Just a different sort of problem than Vaughn.

I'm still smiling about how Vaughn must be seething.  Not only does he have to find a new venue for his little child trafficking conference, CHIN bounced him from their list of speakers really fast, and now people are pointing out that his child marriages are performed without marriage licences too. Naughty.

And he's had to redo his whole website and get rid of "a lot of writing intended to edify Christians."

Yay!

[bertnee]

Does anyone have a screenshot of his blog post about FJ? He had already made it private by the time I got caught up on this thread and I can't seem to find it on the wayback machine/google cache. 

 

[SilverBeach]

On 5/10/2016 at 7:10 PM, Dandruff said:

Calvinism really believes that those who aren't "elected" are going to Hell?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't?  What kind of loving deity would do that to a baby...or millions or billions of them?

No it does not, but whatever. I am part of an RCA affiliated congregation, and we believe no such thing. I kinda take issue with fundies being labeled reformed when they are actually Baptist or something else. Reformed is an actual denomination. I am as liberal of a Christ follower as they come and would not be a part of anything espousing the hate that the fundies we talk about embrace.

I think it is a mistake to assume that someone of any flavor of religion holds 100% of what that flavor may teach. There are cafeteria Catholics, and Protestants too, of which I am one.

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

No it does not, but whatever. I am part of an RCA affiliated congregation, and we believe no such thing. I kinda take issue with fundies being labeled reformed when they are actually Baptist or something else. Reformed is an actual denomination. I am as liberal of a Christ follower as they come and would not be a part of anything espousing the hate that the fundies we talk about embrace.

I think it is a mistake to assume that someone of any flavor of religion holds 100% of what that flavor may teach. There are cafeteria Catholics, and Protestants too, of which I am one.

I think the issue is that some of them (mentioned above) try to fly under cover and claim a level of respectability (that they don't deserve) by claiming to be reformed.  As I've said before, we need to look under the hood at actual practices and claims before labeling anyone (Christian) Fundie - as we snark on them on FJ.

Identifying as "Christian" isn't enough obviously.  Conservative "Christians" don't always make my cut.  Clothing has very little to do with it too. Claimed "denomination" has nothing to do with it.

I, of course, know Fundyism "when I see it." And I'm never wrong!  

Perhaps we should start a list of things and words that are better indicators of extreme Fundyism.  I think it would be useful in the future.

I'll start but this will be brief and incomplete so everybody please add their thoughts.  

I look for:

- the noisy proponents of extreme Biblical Patriarchy and all the control and devaluing of women that goes along with it.  Some words that are indicators - submission, purity, sheltering, umbrellas of protection, transfers of authority.  Some Fundies are sneaky - complimentarian marriage means women are inferior so people using that word go onto my suspect list.

- Quiverfull AKA "as many children as God gives us" and those "we adopt for Jesus." Words: training up a child, courtship, betrothal, purity rings.  BTW, not all homeschoolers are Fundie and not all Fundies homeschool.

- the angry people who want to control or rid the world of anyone - not clearly heterosexual.  Indicator words would be "marriage is one man one woman" and all the other hate speech that would get me warned or banned from FJ.  

- I'm going to add subtle and overt racism here too.  Saying slavery wasn't all bad because it was Biblical.  BTW, Kinism is another sneaky Fundie word for racism.

- with churches I look at their Articles of Faith and whether or not they have a Covenant (as opposed to mere membership).  Do they "live in the world but separate?" Do they chatter about Matthew 18?  Do they require members to address issues internally and abide by pastoral decisions before contacting secular authorities?

- with missions, I look at how helpful they might be, who they are trying to convert, and whether they offer material help.  Church planters only - I label them Fundie automatically.  

As I said, this is just a beginning, so please add or disagree.

[refugee]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I kinda take issue with fundies being labeled reformed when they are actually Baptist or something else.

But there are fundie Presbyterians (at least some PCA churches, the OPC from what I've read, and at least some Bible Presbyterian churches) and denominations with "reformed" in the name, like Doug Wilson's CREC (the "R" is for "reformed") and the CRC ("Christian Reformed Church").

There are also Reformed Baptist churches (with "reformed" in the name -- is it a denomination? I don't know) and there are Reformed Episcopalians -- Elisabeth Elliot was one of those.

Let's face it, the "reformed" label has been hijacked by the Young, Restless, Reformed crowd, along with others.

In my fundie days, fundie people were upset that the rainbow had been hijacked by the gay rights movement...

I came out of a "reformed" church in a "reformed" denomination that taught all kinds of hateful stuff. Including that god made people just so he could destroy them. Your comfort was supposed to be that he loved some people so much that he saved them from destruction, and that all things work to good for those who love him. (Which can be twisted in its own sick, horrible way, glorifying all kinds of abuse and tragedy.)

*Your* particular brand of "reformed" may not be sick and twisted, but it's not the only legitimate reformed church. (I use the term "legitimate" loosely, of course.)

 

Here's an article about the "Reformed movement"
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/september/42.32.html

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

 

I'll start but this will be brief and incomplete so everybody please add their thoughts.  

I look for:

- the noisy proponents of extreme Biblical Patriarchy and all the control and devaluing of women that goes along with it.  Some words that are indicators - submission, purity, sheltering, umbrellas of protection, transfers of authority.  Some Fundies are sneaky - complimentarian marriage means women are inferior so people using that word go onto my suspect list.

- Quiverfull AKA "as many children as God gives us" and those "we adopt for Jesus." Words: training up a child, courtship, betrothal, purity rings.  BTW, not all homeschoolers are Fundie and not all Fundies homeschool.

- the angry people who want to control or rid the world of anyone - not clearly heterosexual.  Indicator words would be "marriage is one man one woman" and all the other hate speech that would get me warned or banned from FJ.  

- I'm going to add subtle and overt racism here too.  Saying slavery wasn't all bad because it was Biblical.  BTW, Kinism is another sneaky Fundie word for racism.

- with churches I look at their Articles of Faith and whether or not they have a Covenant (as opposed to mere membership).  Do they "live in the world but separate?" Do they chatter about Matthew 18?  Do they require members to address issues internally and abide by pastoral decisions before contacting secular authorities?

- with missions, I look at how helpful they might be, who they are trying to convert, and whether they offer material help.  Church planters only - I label them Fundie automatically.  

As I said, this is just a beginning, so please add or disagree.

Good start -- my suggested additions are as follow:

Add to Quiverfull the words "arrows," "blessings," "soldiers" or "soldiers for the Lord/Jesus."

Add to subtle & overt racism: most if not all references to "states' rights" which is code for perpetuating racist, homophobic & anti-woman practices.

And as we've noted before, there are certain words or phrases like "come along side," "purposed [to do or be something]," "die to self," or "fellowship" that say "Fundie" to me immediately whenever I read them.

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, refugee said:

But there are fundie Presbyterians (at least some PCA churches, the OPC from what I've read, and at least some Bible Presbyterian churches) and denominations with "reformed" in the name, like Doug Wilson's CREC (the "R" is for "reformed") and the CRC ("Christian Reformed Church").

There are also Reformed Baptist churches (with "reformed" in the name -- is it a denomination? I don't know) and there are Reformed Episcopalians -- Elisabeth Elliot was one of those.

Let's face it, the "reformed" label has been hijacked by the Young, Restless, Reformed crowd, along with others.

In my fundie days, fundie people were upset that the rainbow had been hijacked by the gay rights movement...

I came out of a "reformed" church in a "reformed" denomination that taught all kinds of hateful stuff. Including that god made people just so he could destroy them. Your comfort was supposed to be that he loved some people so much that he saved them from destruction, and that all things work to good for those who love him. (Which can be twisted in its own sick, horrible way, glorifying all kinds of abuse and tragedy.)

*Your* particular brand of "reformed" may not be sick and twisted, but it's not the only legitimate reformed church. (I use the term "legitimate" loosely, of course.)

 

Here's an article about the "Reformed movement"
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/september/42.32.html

Reformed Church in America and the Christian Reformed Church denominations share an almost five hundred year history. I don't put a whole lot of stock in denominations, but "reformed" Baptists are a flavor of Baptist, not Reformed. This goes for the other permutations of "reformed". I think accurate references are important. If I call myself a duck it does not make me one.  Reformed is not an adjective, it is an actual denomination of its own.

I agree with Palimsest, fundies calling themselves reformed is smoke and mirrors, to detract from their true awfulness. Calvinistic leaning theology does not equate to reformed either. You will find much more Arminian leaning theology in fundy church practices, if you look closely enough.

Frankly, Calvinism, Arminianism, whatever the theological POV may be, that is of no concern to me. I follow Christ and his mandate to love God and our fellow man. I don't follow Calvin or anybody else other than Jesus, and my congregation serves the community and far and wide without heavy handed proselytizing. We have an integrated group and that is a key value. Women are pastors and elders. 

TL:DR. Be careful when slapping the reformed label on a fundy, you may be inaccurate and offending someone for no reason.

[Howl]

@Palimpsest, the term "young ladies" always yanks my chain. 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

Good start -- my suggested additions are as follow:

Add to Quiverfull the words "arrows," "blessings," "soldiers" or "soldiers for the Lord/Jesus."

Add to subtle & overt racism: most if not all references to "states' rights" which is code for perpetuating racist, homophobic & anti-woman practices.

And as we've noted before, there are certain words or phrases like "come along side," "purposed [to do or be something]," "die to self," or "fellowship" that say "Fundie" to me immediately whenever I read them.

I will add asserting that cherry-picked Old Testament Hebrew practices must be followed by modern day Christians. Emphasizing OT laws over the mandate of Jesus to love. 

[closetcagebaby]

On May 10, 2016 at 9:29 PM, THERetroGamerNY said:

I'm surprised he never talked about slavery. I mean, since girls don't need consent, and treating people as property (and marrying-off girls ASAP) is part and parcel of the same era...

Oh, and let's not forget polygamy! I'm still waiting for a Fundie Quiverfull polygamist reality show... 50 kids, 5 wives, and counting.

Basically a Bountiful, BC/Winston Blackmore reality show. Though I would call that more of a horror show!

[smittykins]

"God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

[Anonymousguest]

29 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I will add asserting that cherry-picked Old Testament Hebrew practices must be followed by modern day Christians. Emphasizing OT laws over the mandate of Jesus to love. 

That is the theonomists, right? I'd say definitely fundy on that one.

[foreign fundie]

There are several things that trigger my fundie radar:

1) Emphasis on male / female differences, while insisting no difference in value is implied. 

2) Simplification of all theological mysteries (creation, heaven, hell, salvation, escatology).

3 ) Simplification of all pastoral issues that require sensitivity and wisdom (abortion, sexual orientation and identification, mental illness, divorce, domnestic violence).

4) Simplification of difficult social issues (poverty, discrimination, immigration, terrorism, gun control, education).

5) Inability and subsequent refusal to meaningfully argue their case when questioned.

6) Seeing authority not as neutral, but as good. Rating obedience higher than integrity.

7) More concerned with models and methods than with individual development.

8) Little awareness of the problems in their own world.

9) Overly aware of the problems in the outside world.

10) Lacking flexibility to adapt to changes and curiousity to question the rules.

[formergothardite]

"Vote the Bible" which typically means vote to support anti-gay and anti-women's rights. 

[Palimpsest]

@hoipolloi, @SilverBeach @Howl@formergothardite@foreign fundie@Anonymousguest@smittykins, did I leave anyone out?

I just saved all those posts into a Word document so I can play with it later.  I may end up regretting this as much I did my disaster of a Venn diagram on religion. 

I plan to start a new thread to discuss all this so that we can continue to diss Vaughn Ohlson - who is a pandering pedeaphile pimp here.  He needs his own dedicated thread.

I think that the overarching theme of what we call Christian Fundie on FJ is the Christian Patriarchal Movement.  It catches people falling out of the bottom of established denominations because they are far more attracted to the Old Testament beliefs over the New Testament - and the actual teachings of Jesus.   They develop their own cults - or sects - but continue to use the names of the original denominations to borrow credibility.  Or they make up their own fancy names - the Theonomists being a great example.

12 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

TL:DR. Be careful when slapping the reformed label on a fundy, you may be inaccurate and offending someone for no reason.

I hear you, but try not to offend traditional Baptists as you defend Reformed.

I can also imagine my English Baptist minister grandfather rotating in his grave at the thought of a Baptist believing in anything other than "Believers Baptism" AKA credobaptism.  The way IFB folks baptize 5 year olds (pedobaptism) would have stuck in his craw and he would be just as offended by them calling themselves Baptists.  He believed that children cannot be expected to understand the full import of baptism.

So try not to get offended by people trying to understand this morass and assuming that Fundies self-identify correctly.  It's a learning process.

[devoe364]

12 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Basically a Bountiful, BC/Winston Blackmore reality show. Though I would call that more of a horror show!

If Winston thought it would benefit him, he'd do it in a heartbeat.

Winston and his family are to polygamy what the Bates are to the Quiverful Movement. Winston has good looking kids, many of whom continue to practice polygamy (although many do not). They are quanitly named, each year the kids born have their name start with the same letter.

Since Winston was excomunicated from the FLDS, he has been working steadily on his brand. Photos released from the community show his daughters and wives in jeans and without the FLDS hairstyle and look. 

That said, they still bleed the beast, which many aren't aware of. 

[Baabaablacksheep]

Earlier posters were mentioning the practice of arranged marriages for people in India, and I just happened to come across this podcast today that deals with love and marriage. On this particular episode entitled "F*ck Love" they tell the story of a couple of Indian descent who entered into an arranged marriage, and it is really interesting. Apparently a Harvard study found that people who are in arranged marriages are more in love over the long term. Earlier on in this episode, they also talk about how the idea of entering into marriage based on romantic love is a more recent Western ideal that has evolved over only the last 100 years. Anyways, if anyone is interested the whole podcast is great, the part about the arranged marriage is at the 25 minute mark. http://www.theheartradio.org/audiosmut/fuk-love

[libriatrix]

On May 10, 2016 at 0:57 AM, Gemini said:

Quick question and Apologies if this had already been covered.

Do Calvinists know (think they know) if they are one of the saved? 

Only heard of this branch of Christianity when it was mentioned on the Dugger threads and it baffles me that, with their logic, Hitler could be sat on a fluffy cloud, whilst Mother Theresa burns!

In my experience, yes, they do believe they know.

On May 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, FundieFarmer said:

I went to a Reformed college for two years and have attended Reformed churches. Here's what I can say from my experience of the theology there. 

You don't really know if you're one of the Elect...Kind of like St. Peter or St. Paul said something about I've run the race but it is not yet complete so I continue to strive to live it in His way to the best of my ability until I reach the end of the race, that verse or however it goes. So you continue to serve as a Christian- helping out where you are called, being gracious, being a good person, NOT being an asshole, blah blah blah. 

I am REALLY surprised by your answer here. Can I ask what college or what denomination your experience is? Coming from a Calvinist and reformed (OPC) background myself, I was always taught that you could in fact be sure of your own salvation: If you loved God then you were saved and consequently one of the elect. You know your own heart because you feel desire to follow God and that's what lets you know you are elect. Anyone not elect will never love or desire to follow God. 

Of course, you don't know anyone else's heart and so you don't know who else is elect. That means election doesn't rule out evangelizing: God wants you to tell everyone the gospel even if those who will follow it are predetermined. You don't know who's elect and who's not, so you treat everyone as if they can be saved and evangelize to them. 

Furthermore, being elect has absolutely no reflection on your own moral value and doesn't make you superior to anyone else. You don't look down on anyone.

 

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I can also imagine my English Baptist minister grandfather rotating in his grave at the thought of a Baptist believing in anything other than "Believers Baptism" AKA credobaptism.  The way IFB folks baptize 5 year olds (pedobaptism) would have stuck in his craw and he would be just as offended by them calling themselves Baptists.  He believed that children cannot be expected to understand the full import of baptism.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure IFB folks would be mortally insulted to be accused of any type of baptism other than believer's baptism, and pedobaptism is almost never applied to 5 year olds. Pretty sure that what IFB and your grandpa disagree on is whether a 5yo can believe enough for it to be appropriate to administer believer's baptism, not whether or not baptism should only be administered to those who can profess faith. IFB are baptizing 5yo's because they think the 5yo can profess faith and would not do to a 5yo who refused to profess faith. Pedobaptism is applied to babies, like a few weeks to months old, on the basis of their parents' belief, not their own. IFB are credobaptists and practice believer's baptism, unless I am VERY mistaken.