Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[THERetroGamerNY]

9 minutes ago, uber frau said:

I think whoever described Christianity as the messiest&most complicated Venn diagram in the world is pretty much right.

Indeed! But you cleared up my confusion greatly with your explanation just now, so thank you!

All this time I thought reformed was just this one church, but it instead is just more spaghetti confusion in the vast, tangled, web of fractured Christianity... 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

14 hours ago, uber frau said:

 

I think whoever described Christianity as the messiest&most complicated Venn diagram in the world is pretty much right.

Completely OT digression and not specifically addressed to you uber frau.

Considering the extremely variate nature of Christianity (whose different flavours are often as much at odds with each other as possible), it's even more absurd and fallacious when we obstinately (and often conveniently in agreement with a political and economic agenda) regard Islam as a whole monolithic block.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

40 minutes ago, uber frau said:

Presbyterian refers to a style of church governance, 'Reformed' refers to a doctrinal tradition.

(Politely snipped for brevity)

That's a very good point. IIRC, Presbyterian partially refers to a church governed by a group of elders. (presby- means old. That's why eye doctors call the condition when the lens in the eye gets inflexible as we age presbyopia.) I guess I tend to think of "Presbyterian" as the outgrowth of The Church of Scotland the same way I think of "Episcopalian" as the outgrowth of The Church of England. It's a bit of lazy shorthand.

[Mercer]

12 hours ago, Petrel said:

I don't see any reason to think they're marrying off 13 and 14 year old children?  That wouldn't be legal, generally.  

Um... did you read his definition of what constitutes being of marriageable age? 

Yeah, it wouldn't be legal, but I frankly don't trust these people to follow the law. Plenty of religious "marriages" have happened in the United States that were not legalized. That doesn't necessarily mean these people would do that, but I see nothing to make me trust that they wouldn't.

[K'Z'K]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Thanks everyone though, you have tried hard. My personal problem is that I grew up Catholic and the RCC has a very clear statement of faith and even if there are different charismas (read: ways to read and live that statement) basically you accept it and you're in or you don't and you're out.

You think it's confusing for a Catholic, try being not-even-remotely-Christian. I was raised with no religion whatsoever. Growing up, I first learned that there were a few major religions, including Judaism and Christianity (Islam wasn't on my radar). Then I found out that Christians could be divided into Protestants and Catholics. Then that there are a bunch of kinds of Protestants but only a couple kinds of Catholics. Catholics are the ones who care what the Pope says, Protestants are the ones who don't. Beyond that was all trivial details I couldn't be bothered to try to understand.

I also knew of a few kinds of Jews. Orthodox are hardcore, Conservative in the middle, and Reform are liberal (so I found the mentions of Reform Christians here very confusing for a long time, since they're not at all the Christian equivalent of Reform Jews).

I was aware that some people were other religions, and some were none of the above, like me, but it took a very long time to figure out that people actually believed the old stories. I had basically assumed that "religion" was like an ethnic group (which makes sense, as I'm considered ethnically Jewish--my only experience with these labels was as an identifier that didn't actually mean much). Still can't quite wrap my head around what people believe, but I know know that they do. Sometimes strongly enough to go to war over interpretations of lousy translations of ancient essays.

To derail this incredibly educational derail of the thread (thanks everyone, for trying to explain it!)...

In light of all we've learned about the particular brand of crazy trying to have a slave auction perfectly normal meet n' greet n' marry, I can suggest a few more lecture topics (provided, of course, they can find someplace to have this lovely and not-at-all-disgusting event):

"Biblical Human Trafficking"

"Bargaining the Bride-Price: making sure you don't overpay for your brood mare"

For the happy couple: "Preparation for marriage: Just Do It (you can find out his or her name later)"

"Proudly Proclaiming Your Beliefs (until someone notices)"

"Boobs: the only difference between a little girl and a woman ready for breeding"

"It's not child sex trafficking if you insist they aren't children"

"Sex Ed for (our brand of) Christians: No touching until dad says the magic words, then fuck like bunnies."

"Checking the teeth, kicking the tires: lessons from horse-trading and used-car sales"

"It's Different When We Do It: keeping a straight face when accusing others of immoral acts"

 

[Yes, that's right Vaughn. I'm calling you immoral. But only because you are. You sick bastard.]

 

[Gemini]

Quick question and Apologies if this had already been covered.

Do Calvinists know (think they know) if they are one of the saved? 

Only heard of this branch of Christianity when it was mentioned on the Dugger threads and it baffles me that, with their logic, Hitler could be sat on a fluffy cloud, whilst Mother Theresa burns!

[Iamhispurity]

Okay, as a Reformed theology student, I wil chime in about being reformed. At least in Europe (reformed theology originated in Switzerland) there are different branches of being Reformed. Some are leaning towards Zwinglian theology, some towards Calvinist. Nearly none are evangelical or fundamentalist. Most I know of reject the idea of predestination now and are leaning towards a theology originated by the Swiss theologian Karl Barth, who is known for his opposition to the Nazis (he co-wrote one of the most important statements from anti-nazi pastors). Also Dietrich Bonhoeffer is an important influence for these churches. 

At least here Calvinist would refer to extremists. But that might be because of a language difference. And I have never met one.

FFS! We ordain gay people. Far away from extremist or "red flags". Reformed theology is about ad diverse as Lutheran is and those doctrines are definitely not backed by mainstream Reformed theology. So: don't judge a denomination by its weirdos. 

[ophelia]

A huge thanks to everyone who posted their thoughts and explanations in this thread. I am more confused than ever, but I will keep on digging.

Just like @Iamhispurity I'm a theology student, but in Germany and where I study you do not differ between Lutheran and Reformed when you study theology at the university, students from all kind of denominations (they aren't that many!) sit together in class. Of course we learn about the Reformation and about Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, but I often feel like that's it. I never heard anything about Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals or whatever is out there. So FJ is a pretty important source for me!

[Iamhispurity]

26 minutes ago, ophelia said:

A huge thanks to everyone who posted their thoughts and explanations in this thread. I am more confused than ever, but I will keep on digging.

Just like @Iamhispurity I'm a theology student, but in Germany and where I study you do not differ between Lutheran and Reformed when you study theology at the university, students from all kind of denominations (they aren't that many!) sit together in class. Of course we learn about the Reformation and about Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, but I often feel like that's it. I never heard anything about Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals or whatever is out there. So FJ is a pretty important source for me!

I think  that depends on the German uni. Reformed and Lutheran differences seem to be more important in the United Landeskirchen than in the Lutheran ones.  There some professors especially for Reformed theology in Germany, though. I think they are more up north, though.

How funny that there to find another German theology student here!

[ophelia]

Yay, that is really funny!! I'm only in my 2nd semester! Do you study to become a teacher?

 

Most of the fundies we snark on are IFB or their own kind of crazy like the PP, Steve Maxwell, etc. or am I wrong? Do we snark on any pentecostals??

[Iamhispurity]

40 minutes ago, ophelia said:

Yay, that is really funny!! I'm only in my 2nd semester! Do you study to become a teacher?

 

Most of the fundies we snark on are IFB or their own kind of crazy like the PP, Steve Maxwell, etc. or am I wrong? Do we snark on any pentecostals??

No, I am a studying to become a pastor and I am hopefully done soon. And you?

There was a thread about Apostolic Pentecostal dress once, I think.

[ophelia]

Wow!! I am really impressed when someone studies theology to become a pastor. You have to acquire Hebrew, Ancient Greek and Latin AND have to get through full theology studies, which is challenging and difficult enough!!
I study to become a teacher for history and religious education on secondary schools.

[uber frau]

4 hours ago, Gemini said:

Quick question and Apologies if this had already been covered.

Do Calvinists know (think they know) if they are one of the saved? 

 

Now there's a big topic for discussion. Reformed demoninations have split over this subject(& more minor stuff).

Technically,Hitler might be one of the elect&Mother Teresa might be not. The official line is that it's not up to humans to judge.  On the other hand, one of the Forms of Unity states that it is impossible that those who are saved do not bring forth fruits of thankfulness.

 

 

[bjr70]

Completely OT digression and not specifically addressed to you @uber frau.

Considering the extremely variate nature of Christianity (whose different flavours are often as much at odds with each other as possible), it's even more absurd and fallacious when we obstinately (and often conveniently in agreement with a political and economic agenda) regard Islam as a whole monolithic block.

That makes me crazy. I live in an area with that's 47% of Middle Eastern descent, and people target our community all the time. Our police chief is of ME descent, and he's Chaldean (Lebanese-Christian). There are Sunnis and Shias, and many other branches. Islam is diverse, and even among different groups there is considerable difference between beliefs. We get targeted a lot by fundies looking for "Sharia law" as well. Ugh. Drives me nuts.

I'm Jewish, and we have many branches as well. It kills me when people paint with such a broad brush.

[Palimpsest]

8 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

It makes for some difficulty in categorizing groups, but I'm glad no single group can dictate to me how to be a Christian.

Oh, but practically anyone can tell you that you are not the "Right Kind of Christian" and try to convert you to the correct path.  You don't have to believe them though.

8 hours ago, uber frau said:

I think whoever described Christianity as the messiest&most complicated Venn diagram in the world is pretty much right.

Thank you.  I'm going to take a bow for that one.

 

[FundieFarmer]

5 hours ago, Gemini said:

Quick question and Apologies if this had already been covered.

Do Calvinists know (think they know) if they are one of the saved? 

I went to a Reformed college for two years and have attended Reformed churches. Here's what I can say from my experience of the theology there. 

You don't really know if you're one of the Elect...Kind of like St. Peter or St. Paul said something about I've run the race but it is not yet complete so I continue to strive to live it in His way to the best of my ability until I reach the end of the race, that verse or however it goes. So you continue to serve as a Christian- helping out where you are called, being gracious, being a good person, NOT being an asshole, blah blah blah. 

You also don't know if anybody else is one of the Elect. But because the Bible says that God knows everything you know that God knows who's eventually going to be Christian. So the person you hate the most could wind up being Christian in 20 years so you better not be an asshole to them because who knows? You sure don't. Just show Christ's love and move right along and work on your feelings and don't be an asshole.

The way I see it, the people who use Election as a reason to look down on everybody else because they are sure of who is going to heaven are doing it wrong. There's a lot of time in someone's life and you don't know what could happen. Wouldn't it be a shame to be that asshole Christian they met (looking at you, Fundie Christians!)? I'd way rather be the nice one. And don't be an asshole anyway because being nice to somebody isn't contingent upon whether or not they're a Christian.

[Palimpsest]

There is a bright side.  As an evil atheist, whenever I get depressed at the thought of the Great Commission succeeding and Christianity (especially Fundamentalist Christian beliefs) taking over the world,  I comfort myself with this thought:  They will never be able to take over the world because they will forever be squabbling over Doctrine.

If there is a God, She has a sense of humor.

[devoe364]

12 hours ago, Florita said:

Old, mainline denominations (Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, et.al) have education/training and ordination requirements. If you meet the requirements you get assigned to a parish or church. In the American non-denominationals or generic baptist churches no training is necessary, and no one just hands you a church.  Someone raised in those churches who wants to go into ministry has to strike out on his own. Which is why you have Valley View Bible Baptist across the street from Canyon Vista Bible Baptist. And also why the DIY churches are a hotbed of personality cults, bad theology, and spiritual abuse.

This is why I <3 my old school Anglicanism. Seriously, I've gone to Reformed and Revival Churches and yeah no. People crying at the altar while they wave their arms to rock music is not my idea of Church. 

[nelliebelle1197]

12 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

@dramallama, that's cool. I had said it was "generally" because I knew experience, views, etc will vary... And I pretty much typed up those points from memory, so an error doesn't surprise me.

I think Reformed Christianity is its own sect, isn't it? And there are different flavors of it?

So a strict Reformed theology, with Calvinism would be in line with what you say I guess?

You know why this is all so damned confusing? There's a Reformed Church of America... A Reformed Church of the United States... I probably had the wrong damned one in mind! lol

I think what you are thinking of are actual, established denominations and "reformed" in our context is Kevin Swanson, Wildlife Biologist Botkin, Scott Brown, "kirks" and craziness. These are hyper-Calvinists and are caught in all sorts of crazy like the historic cosplay from VF (which still goes on- see the Boyer Sisters and others), an odd view of history, homeschools, has bizarre church "covenants" and all sorts of other nonsense that would send most people screaming. These fundies are as wacked as every other type  but out a prettier, more monied face on it.

The way I look at it, even those associated with a real, established denomination are really under the cult of personality of the particular leader.

[quiversR4hunting]

I am going to take us back to the INCH conference in Michigan. I did some more reading of the courses last night. It is a Christian homeschooling conference but it doesn't seem like all the presenters are as hard core as this guy (Voddie is it?).

So this is the mission statement of INCH

Quote

Our Mission:

To provide information, instruction, and inspiration for Michigan’s home educators

No problem. I found it weird, very weird that a mission statement that doesn't speak at all about faith then has a "Statement of Faith"

Quote

Our Statement of Faith:

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, infallible, authoritative Word of God.

We believe that there is One God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, His sinless life, His miracles, His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, His bodily resurrection, His ascension to the right hand of God the Father, and His personal return in power and glory.

We believe that for the salvation of the lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential, as is the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, whose presence and power enable believers to live a godly life.

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved unto eternal life and the lost unto eternal damnation.

We believe in the power of prayer, both individual and corporate.

We believe in the institutions of marriage, the family, the church, and the government as established by God in His Holy Word.

We believe in the creation of man by the direct act of God, and therefore in the sanctity of human life, since each child is a gift from God, entrusted to his or her parents to be the primary care-givers and educators, training them in accordance with God’s will and Word.

We believe in the spiritual unity of believers through our common faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that individual doctrinal differences which may exist outside the aforementioned, should not hinder the unity of Christian home educators.

INCH isn't a church, why would they need a statement of faith? And if it is so faith driven why is no mention of faith in the mission?

Someone up thread said they didn't think Keilen's (Michaella Bates &Brandon Keilen) would attend this type of event but I think they would. It may not be as hard core as ATI but it seems very fundy (collegePlus guy is a speaker). another speaker (Dennis Gundersen) was a speaker at the VA homeschool convention in 2013 where the Duggar's were featured. http://go.epublish4me.com/ebook/ebook?id=10024939#/10

I am very curious to see if my fundy-lite friend will attend this conference and if the Keilen's will also attend. Too bad I am booked that weekend.

[uber frau]

I'm guessing that the 'C' in INCH stands for 'Christian', hence the statement of faith.

They need to make sure that the Chino/ not-quite-holy-enough ppl stay away.

[Palimpsest]

34 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I am going to take us back to the INCH conference in Michigan. I did some more reading of the courses last night. It is a Christian homeschooling conference but it doesn't seem like all the presenters are as hard core as this guy (Voddie is it?).

So this is the mission statement of INCH

No problem. I found it weird, very weird that a mission statement that doesn't speak at all about faith then has a "Statement of Faith"

INCH isn't a church, why would they need a statement of faith? And if it is so faith driven why is no mention of faith in the mission?

Someone up thread said they didn't think Keilen's (Michaella Bates &Brandon Keilen) would attend this type of event but I think they would. It may not be as hard core as ATI but it seems very fundy (collegePlus guy is a speaker). another speaker (Dennis Gundersen) was a speaker at the VA homeschool convention in 2013 where the Duggar's were featured. http://go.epublish4me.com/ebook/ebook?id=10024939#/10

I am very curious to see if my fundy-lite friend will attend this conference and if the Keilen's will also attend. Too bad I am booked that weekend.

INCH = Information Network of Christian Homeschooling.  Yes, they would have a statement of faith.

It would be interesting if your fundy-lite friend goes and you try to pick her brain a bit.

However, it is highly unlikely that the Keilens would attend this conference because INCH is direct competition for ATI and the ATI conferences (and for all we know Brandon and Michael are already on the move to Big Sandy with the rest of the staff).  INCH is the wrong kind of Christian for IBLP/ATI true believers.  It seems more Fundylite - Evangelical.  I only took a quick look though.

It is not impossible that IBLP/ATI homeschoolers (especially the TV Bateses and Duggars) would be paid to speak at INCH - or any other homeschooling conference - but I don't recognize any ATI names on the INCH speakers list this year.

The presence of a CollegePlus speaker doesn't mean much.  CollegePlus markets itself to all homeschoolers.  Not all homeschoolers are Christian or Fundy.  Many non-Christian homeschoolers express frustration that homeschooling conferences and materials are dominated by Christianity.

ETA.  to the bolded - did you mean Voddie Baucham?  Last seen wandering around Zambia in a white suit.  There is a guy on the speakers list that looks a bit like him.  Kevin Waterman.

[docmom]

15 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Calvinism really believes that those who aren't "elected" are going to Hell?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't?  What kind of loving deity would do that to a baby...or millions or billions of them?

If you believe God is all-knowing then this type of philosophy actually makes sense.  Even if people have free will to choose to follow Jesus, God knows if you'll take that path or not.  He would also know which babies and children will die before they can realistically "choose".

What the point is of creating a world where the majority of people will live for a short time before spending eternity in hell, I don't know.  I also don't know what the point of sending Jesus would have been because again God already knew from the beginning of time what every single person would do thus the influence of Jesus would be zero.  And that's where this all falls apart in my opinion.

 

[FundieFarmer]

1 hour ago, devoe364 said:

This is why I <3 my old school Anglicanism. Seriously, I've gone to Reformed and Revival Churches and yeah no. People crying at the altar while they wave their arms to rock music is not my idea of Church. 

Interesting. I've only seen one reformed church with "rock" music and even that was just more contemporary hymns with a guitar.

All of the reformed churches I know would have a heart attack if anyone even proposed a true contemporary service with a full rock band. My guess is that falls under the YRR movement and not the old school reformers. But still, most YRR still attend old guard churches so that sort of surprises me.

*YRR= Young, Restless, Reformed

[quiversR4hunting]

30 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

It would be interesting if your fundy-lite friend goes and you try to pick her brain a bit.

If she mentions them attending on her f/b page I will inquire. But homeschooling with our relationship is not a topic we talk about. I come from a family of teachers and she hated (HATED!!) school but attended everything (prom, band, football games, basketball games, all other dance formals, etc) yet she denies all of this to her kids. So not a topic I bring up with her but I will watch her f/b activity more and see if she attends.

She got into an argument with me (f/b inbox) about girl scouts and who they support (I am a leader) and she said something about us not agreeing and I said something like, that shouldn't surprise you, we often don't agree on social issues, even when we were young.