Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[Coconut Flan]

Reconciliation is the current approved name or confession is popularly used and annointing of the sick for Catholics.

Orthodox would be the same as Catholic except confirmation is called chrismation and confession is used without calling it reconciliation. Orthodox also call it annointing of the sick.

Both churches would baptize a child up to the age of seven based on parental request with the parents and godparents making the promises, but after age 7 the child having reached the age of reason must take classes and make the promises on their own.  Neither would find a four or five year old competent to comprehend what they were doing.  Some priests might counsel that a seven year old should spend at least a couple of years in classes before understanding sufficiently what they are doing. 

[nolongerIFBx]

On Thursday, May 05, 2016 at 8:21 PM, DomWackTroll said:

“What if, just maybe, we began our romantic relationships with a solid covenant? What if we began ‘getting to know a man’ in the relationship of husband and wife? What if, like Rebekah, we were willing to leave father and mother, home and country, to marry a man we’d never met, yet whom the Lord had so clearly and providentially chosen to be your husband?”

 

Oh, yes, be just like Rebecca and "love" your husband so much that you deliberately set out to trick him into thinking that YOUR favorite son is HIS favorite son so that your pick gets the inheritance and his get only the little a second son would get. Play your sons against each other and against your husband. Oh, yes, she surely loved him a lot!!! Definitely a marriage that I would want mine to resemble.

[OnceUponATime]

2 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

If they baptize a 5yro they are de facto baptizing a child based on his/her parents faith, because honestly why else a 5yro would profess faith?

As one who chose to get baptized around that age. From other people's pov I said all the right stuff. I could recite the profession of faith and agree to all the stuff needed in order to be baptized.
My secret never spoken about motivation? To no longer be the only non-baptized person in my family (because that meant I wasn't allowed to partake in communion) and to be the youngest baptized kid in my family. I was smart enough to not let anyone know of that motivation.

[nolongerIFBx]

On Monday, May 09, 2016 at 6:38 AM, EmiGirl said:

Reformed is not a denomination in itself it only refers to having Calvinistic theology. 

Eh. According to my religion professor in college Reformed Baptist was a denomination but IBLP/ATI was not. Would have really loved to write about IBLP/ATI but had to settle for the reformeds.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

3 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Reconciliation is the current approved name or confession is popularly used and annointing of the sick for Catholics.

Orthodox would be the same as Catholic except confirmation is called chrismation and confession is used without calling it reconciliation. Orthodox also call it annointing of the sick.

Both churches would baptize a child up to the age of seven based on parental request with the parents and godparents making the promises, but after age 7 the child having reached the age of reason must take classes and make the promises on their own.  Neither would find a four or five year old competent to comprehend what they were doing.  Some priests might counsel that a seven year old should spend at least a couple of years in classes before understanding sufficiently what they are doing. 

Here too they say "cresima" because you get annointed with the "chrisma". Officially they say "riconciliazione" but colloquially I've always heard "confessione". For example the priest invites people to reconciliation but people say they are going to "confessarsi". 

1 hour ago, OnceUponATime said:

As one who chose to get baptized around that age. From other people's pov I said all the right stuff. I could recite the profession of faith and agree to all the stuff needed in order to be baptized.
My secret never spoken about motivation? To no longer be the only non-baptized person in my family (because that meant I wasn't allowed to partake in communion) and to be the youngest baptized kid in my family. I was smart enough to not let anyone know of that motivation.

Personally as a former Catholic, currently agnostic, I have nothing against paedobaptism. It's a way for a family and a community to welcome the new member. The infant is blissfully unaware and the child usually (the few I've known) feels a sense of identification and belonging that can be positive. That said I think that, imho, every other sacrament should wait until one is older than 14yro. Because before that age people can't really understand abstracts. And there are few things as abstract as the concepts of eternity, God, faith, love, commitment and so on. Devoid of these concepts the Chistianity I am familiar with is nothing different from what is often disparagingly called superstition. That said I suspect that should this happen churches around here would be pretty void.

Reconciliation most of all should be reserved for older people. As it is it's a very good basis for a lifetime of guilt for many things none should feel guilty for.

[EmiGirl]

45 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

Eh. According to my religion professor in college Reformed Baptist was a denomination but IBLP/ATI was not. Would have really loved to write about IBLP/ATI but had to settle for the reformeds.

The reformed part of that particular church deminiation refers to being Calvinistic in theology. But just "reformed" is not a denomination in itself. At least that's what my pastor told me when I asked him about all this.

[nolongerIFBx]

On Monday, May 09, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Palimpsest said:

Some of out IFB survivors may want to add more information or disagree with that characterization of IFB.

There are varieties of IFB even inside the IFB description. Most recently the Duggars have claimed to be IFB (though they identified as Southern Baptists in the early specials). However in over 30 years in IFBx (what I call extremist since the church I attend now is IFB but would not be considered so by IFBxers), I only met one family who stated they did not use birth control. I do not know that they officially identified as Quiverfull. There is another family  that I certainly suspect does not practice BC (9 kids, the last born when the wife was 43) but I've never heard them out and out say that they don't use birth control/believe birth control is a sin or lack of faith.

Dress standards in the IFBx churches I was in was very similar to the Duggars. Most of the churches allowed girls to wear culottes for casual activities but it got to be quite an issue to find culottes that would pass muster; they needed to have at least a box pleat in the front and back (to cover the crotch/butt crack areas) and there was still discussion that while modest they were still a divided legged garment so some churches just said no garments with divided legs at all. Some churches allowed skirts to the knee others required skirts to be to the bottom of the knee. Some required that if you were so worldly as to wear a skirt that was slim enough it had a kick pleat in it, the slit had to be sewed shut. Some required that anything that buttoned up the front had to be sewn to the bottom of the skirt (to avoid gaping and a slit in the bottom of the skirt/dress). Some felt that keyhole closures on blouses were immodest (even if the button was at the neck!). Some required that pantyhose/tights always be worn (no bare legs). I never ran into any issues with sandals but I heard of some who did. Guys dress was pretty simple. Wear a shirt. If it was a dress type shirt, wear a T-shirt under it. Some churches said no shorts at all, others allowed them as long as they came to below the knee. Hair must be short, not touching the ears. Some churches allowed facial hair, others not. Men could not wear jewelry other than watches and rings (usually only wedding rings were worn). Some required that all dress shirts must be white, some allowed blue or stripes, but no peach, pink, purple (too feminine). Pastors could make up rules like no headphones ever, no hats backwards, no hats ever, and specific to my day, I guess, no scrunchie sock layering. No workman-type boots for girls (too masculine).

Music standards were pretty similar to the Duggars. No rock, no country, no contemporary Christian music including Sandi Patti and Steve Green. Nothing with a beat.

Most churches had a no TV at all rule. People in the church who had them were looked down on. If you had a Blockbuster card i your wallet, you needed to Get Right With God. Some allowed VCRs that you could play edited tapes on. Unlike Duggars and VF (from what I understand) setting foot in a movie theater, even to see a G rated movie, was a horrible sin. You should "avoid the appearance of evil" and sinners watching you wouldn't know if you were there to see a G rated film or an R rated one.

Dating occurred but it was chaperoned. You didn't have to have a second date and you weren't considered tainted if you didn't marry the first person you dated or even the second. No kissing, no hand holding, no touching at all. Six inches apart until you joined hands at the wedding altar.

Not Calvinist. People were not automatically damned to hell or destined to heaven. A person had to have a specific time that they accepted Christ as their Savior to be considered saved/a Christian. Baptism (by immersion) happened only after that. Babies weren't sprinkled, but they had a dedication ceremony, promising to raise the child by their beliefs. Someone mentioned babies- until the age of accountability, all went to heaven. Mentally challenged people could be so challenged as to never reach the age of accountability.

Premillenial, obviously none of us would suffer through the tribulation.

They believed in Baptist succession-ism, an unbroken line from John the Baptist to the modern day IFBx church. You could be a Christian if you weren't IFBx, but you weren't going to heaven "first class" and you might just be a guest at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb instead of part of the Bride of Christ.

College actually was encouraged, even for girls, but it needed to be an IFBx college. As I mentioned in another thread PCC was considered liberal and not Baptist. Bob Jones, Senior, was quoted, but they hated BJU. Too intellectual. And accredited; they had given in to government oversight. The churches usually had a school attached to them that they preferred over members homeschooling. Very, very few attended other schools, public or private.

Women usually did not work; men were to be the sole breadwinners and the wives keepers at home. Women who did work were looked down on. There wasn't anything wrong with having a boss like you see from the Bates/Duggars crowd, though plenty did own their own businesses. Military service was not looked down on at all, though they would rather the young people go to Christian college and prepare for ministry than to enter the military.

I don't think the IBLP/ATI types require at least weekly soul winning (door knocking) and bus routes (picking up kids to take them to church). If you did not do at least one, preferably both, then you were bad, bad, bad and might just as well go to the liberal church down the road if you refused to "get with the program". If you couldn't get at least one persona week to pray the sinners prayer, then you weren't Right with God.

Anything else?

 

[Arete]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

And how wet you get.  Does baptism count if it is not full immersion?

Baptism is the first of the sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ.  A visible sign of inward grace or something.   Protestants have two important sacraments: baptism and the Lord's Supper/Eucharist.  Some protestants think confirmation (getting to get bread and grape juice - or wine) is a more important step than others.  I don't think marriage is a sacrament - can someone refresh my memory?

Catholics and Greek Orthodox  on the other hand have many:   baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, matrimony, penance, holy orders, and extreme unction (but Roman Catholics call extreme unction somethings else these days, I forget).  @laPapessaGiovanna?  @Arete?  Corrections?

@FundieFarmer That is fascinating!  

I'm sure the red flag list is going to get me into deep trouble.

 

 

Extreme Unction for the Eastern Orthodox is now called the Sacrament of the Sick in English.  It has always been called "euhelion" in Greek, which means "the Holy Oil".  It was never used just at death.  It is used to anoint the sick, whether for psychological or physical symptoms.  It represents God's grace and comfort.  

I'll give the run down on EO baptism a little later.

 

[Arete]

OK, run down on meaning and symbolism of an Eastern Orthodox(EO) baptism.  EOs are not Sola Scriptura.  They interpret doctrine through what is called Holy Tradition and the Bible.  Holy Tradition existed before the canonization   of the books we put together to make the Bible.  In Holy Tradition, water is of upmost theological importance as a symbol of man's relationship with God and creation.

EOs do NOT believe in the doctrine of Original Sin.  You are responsible for your own sins, and have no responsibility for anything Adam and Eve did.  Therefore EOs perform infant baptism.  It is considered your initiation into the Church.  EOs Holy Tradition holds that when Jesus walked into the Jordan River to be baptized by John, the Jordan reversed current flow toward him.  This is accepted as a healing of creation.  You baptize in complete immersion to claim that healing or reconciliation to God for the person.  It's considered the first sacrament to bind you  to God's grace.  For EOs there is no depravity.  We are born good, but inherent a tendency to make bad decisions.  Baptism is putting on the armour of God's love. Your godparents first take the vows you will work on your union with God as part of the Church.  It is your responsibility as an adult to reaffirm or denounce.  Union with God is considered a lifelong work initiated by Baptism. There are no people in Purgatory or Hell because they are not baptized.

Sorry for the dissertation, but there is a lot of background theology that feeds it's meaning in every denomination.

[louisa05]

15 hours ago, Arete said:

Extreme Unction for the Eastern Orthodox is now called the Sacrament of the Sick in English.  It has always been called "euhelion" in Greek, which means "the Holy Oil".  It was never used just at death.  It is used to anoint the sick, whether for psychological or physical symptoms.  It represents God's grace and comfort.  

I'll give the run down on EO baptism a little later.

 

Extreme Unction in the RCC is called Anointing of the Sick and sometimes the Sacrament of the Sick. 

Another poster seemed to put that sacrament and confession together as one--perhaps that was just confusing phrasing. Confession is called Penance and Reconciliation or just one or the other. 

In regard to another post that had a definition I found confusing: Confirmation in most denominations is not when you can receive the Eucharist/Communion, but rather an anointing that confers the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, a sort of personal pentecost. In the American Catholic church the age for Confirmation varies greatly by area--from being confirmed at baptism to waiting until the senior year of high school. My archdiocese confirms kids in the spring of 8th grade--at age 13 or 14. A neighboring diocese confirms in fourth grade, which I think is too young (which I feel even more strongly about now that my husband and I teach confirmation prep in our parish). Regardless of age at confirmation, children in American Catholic churches receive first communion in second grade--at age 7 or 8. First reconciliation immediately precedes that. Most catechetical materials today emphasize teaching children gently in regard to that sacrament and emphasizing the mercy part of it rather than the guilt part. 

[mango_fandango]

Well f**k me religion is confusing!  So many different branches and sects and splinter groups with differing beliefs and teachings....  This thread has produced some monster posts. 

I've never had much direct contact with religion. My primary school was C of E, and we did pray and sing hymns, but it didn't feel like indoctrination. My secondary school was not religious, although we did do a church service at the end of the winter and spring terms for Christmas and Easter. I got the feeling people enjoyed the Christmas ones more because everyone knows the carols and it's just much more of a festive atmosphere whereas Easter is all JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED and the Easter hymns just aren't as well known. 

When our school did an exchange to Munich, my family was Catholic so we prayed before meals. I joined in because we had to respect our hosts obviously. I think Bavaria and the south of Germany in general is quite Catholic. Also, near the end of my stay (we were there Sunday to Sunday) my partner went off to some Confirmation retreat type thing- she had to come home early so she could see me off home. (I still remember being driven through the Bavarian countryside and seeing all these typically Bavarian buildings, it was pretty amazing). 

[K'Z'K]

Wow. Growing up without religion was so much easier. For me it was basically Wheaton's Law (though not in so many words): Don't be a dick.

I'm reminded why I gave up after the 'Catholics listen to Pope, others don't' thing. It's because it's an entirely different language, describing concepts that I just can't grasp. I think teaching me about religion is like teaching a dog calculus. I can look interested but not understand anything other than "cookie."   I sincerely thank you all for trying, but I accept that I'll never really understand it.

An attempt to illustrate how foreign all of this is to me: When I was little I listened to Tom Lehrer a lot (still do!). I had most of his songs memorized by the age of 5. I didn't quite understand many of them (and for the political ones, still don't). One of my favorites was "The Vatican Rag." There's a part that goes

"Get in line in that processional

Step into that small confessional

There the guy who's got religion'll

Tell you if your sin's original"

I didn't know what a processional (still don't) was, but I knew getting in line (public school FTW!). I figured the confessional was where you told the religion-guy about your "sins". I had never heard of "original sin," (still don't understand it) and knew only that a "sin" was "something that religious people say you're not supposed to do". So I interpreted that line to mean that if you told the nice folks at the Catholic Church what you did that you weren't supposed to, they would judge your creativity and let you know how you did on that front. I always wondered what you got if you did come up with something totally new. A prize maybe? I was a good kid, though, so I never had any great ideas. 

[sorry it's big]

 

[smittykins]

I've read that at one point, the Episcopal Church required confirmation before receiving Communion.  My ex-stepfather was raised Episcopalian, and claimed that on the day he and his twin brother were to be confirmed, the bishop was sick, so it never happened and thus were never able to receive Communion(why they couldn't have been confirmed the next year, I don't know).

[Coconut Flan]

There's a funny story I have that goes along with that.  Also yes, they could have been confirmed the next year or at another parish that same year, or the bishop would have rescheduled, etc.

On to the story of a Catholic parish near me that has a not so people friendly priest.  He is definitely a far outlyer in this diocese.  One my friends who goes there showed me their bulletin one week with a bit of a giggle.  The priest's announcement was that the one and only make up session for first reconciliation was for Saturday at 1:00.  Anyone who did not make that session WOULD NOT EVER receive first reconciliation.  Friend and I looked at each other burst into nearly hysterical laughter.  All the parents had to do was take child to any parish and take the child to reconciliation.  In fact  we found out that several banded together to make sure the kids went to a different parish as that announcement set so badly with them.  Seems the priest forgot that no matter where you do it, the first time going to reconciliation is going to the first reconciliation and he didn't have the right to deprive even 7 year olds of the sacraments. 

[paganbaby]

I've read this thread, and my head is reeling, but I don't think this particular wrinkle on the baptism issue has been discussed: whether it should take place in public. Some fundie neighbors of mine have a pastor who is so adamant about this he used to conduct baptisms in the public swimming pools in town. He was ordered to stop it, so he got one of those above-ground kiddie pools, set it up on a flatbed truck, drove it to the park, and conducted the baptism in the parking lot. I'm not sure if he's still doing this. I'm even less sure if this is some idiosyncratic belief of his or if there's a larger school of thought about it.

I can understand his logic, as John baptized Jesus publicly. On the other hand, it contradicts Jesus' instructions not to show off when you worship.

And now for something almost completely different. I was raised Catholic. The idea that baptizing a child is about the parents agreeing to raise him or her in the faith makes sense, especially since you have the later sacrament of Confirmation. This is in line with what I learned in high school.

However, I started my schooling pre-Vatican II, when they were still asking the babies if they renounced Satan. They stopped after V II, I assume because most of the babies weren't answering. More importantly, they stopped harping on the notion that a baby who died without being baptized could only go as far as Limbo, not Heaven, until after Jesus' second coming. (At some point, I believe they let everyone out of Limbo and into Heaven. "They," AKA the nuns, always seemed dead certain about this kind of thing until they changed their minds and wore outfits that let us see their shins and bits of their actual hair.)

But before all that happened, getting babies baptized was a Big Freaking Deal, or at least that's what they impressed on me in kindergarten and the early grades. So big, we collected funds for missionaries for the stated purpose of baptizing pagan babies. Each homeroom had a count of how many pagan babies we'd managed to save from Limbo based on what we'd donated so far that year. I hope they were actually using the money to help people, and the baptism thing was a ploy they thought would be comprehensible to a little kid in a parochial school in New Jersey.

ETA: How could I have forgotten this part? If we collected a certain amount of money, we picked a name that was supposedly given to some little baptizee.

[AlysonRR]

9 hours ago, smittykins said:

I've read that at one point, the Episcopal Church required confirmation before receiving Communion.  

I was Episcopalian, and my first communion was on the Sunday after I finished confirmation classes. That was about 40 years ago.

[nastyhobbitses]

On 5/13/2016 at 10:56 PM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Here too they say "cresima" because you get annointed with the "chrisma". Officially they say "riconciliazione" but colloquially I've always heard "confessione". For example the priest invites people to reconciliation but people say they are going to "confessarsi". 

Personally as a former Catholic, currently agnostic, I have nothing against paedobaptism. It's a way for a family and a community to welcome the new member. The infant is blissfully unaware and the child usually (the few I've known) feels a sense of identification and belonging that can be positive. That said I think that, imho, every other sacrament should wait until one is older than 14yro. Because before that age people can't really understand abstracts. And there are few things as abstract as the concepts of eternity, God, faith, love, commitment and so on. Devoid of these concepts the Chistianity I am familiar with is nothing different from what is often disparagingly called superstition. That said I suspect that should this happen churches around here would be pretty void.

Reconciliation most of all should be reserved for older people. As it is it's a very good basis for a lifetime of guilt for many things none should feel guilty for.

Yeah, to be honest I don't have much issue with infant baptism, since I see it as a rite of passage and welcoming the child into the community more than forcing a child into a covenant they don't have the capacity to consent to. I'm Reform Jewish, and since I'm a girl, I got a naming ceremony at 8 days old instead of a bris. My parents brought me up to the dais at a Shabbat service, the rabbi basically said "yay a new baby thanks God here's her Hebrew name", and that was it. That being said, I find the fundamentalist practice of having preschool and kindergarten-age children tell their parents that they're sinners who need to be saved a little disturbing. That I think is more coercive, and that sort of post-infancy baptism should wait until the child is at least 13 or 14 and can understand what they're committing to (and probably sinned a bit more ;-) ). Of course, my POV is influenced by the Bar/Bat Mitzvah, in which you're not a full member of the religious community until you're 13 and spent at least a year intensively studying two passages of Jewish scripture and fairly elaborate prayer rituals.

[formergothardite]

Speaking of public baptisms, a couple of years ago I read an article about a church screaming persecution because they had been told they couldn't use a river in a state park for baptizing. They claimed it was an attack on Christianity, but the real story was that they were tearing stuff with their vehicles because they wanted to drive right to the river and they were refusing to fill out the proper paperwork to host an event at the state park. 

I don't remember that much about my baptism except that all the kids were getting baptized so I went down front and said I wanted to do it too. I got saved and baptized because it was expected of me, not because I actually understood the whole religion thing. And then I spent years being plagued with salvation doubts because I don't have a clear memory of it all. 

I've noticed a more recent trend on FB pictures where instead of the pastor baptizing the kids, the father does it. And this is in regular Baptist churches or those churches that have one name like Genesis, Exodus, Revolution, Revelation, Engage, Inspire, or Vision. 

[FundieFarmer]

Baptism is something to be done in the community because it is an act of the Christian community. When someone is baptized, the church is asked if we will come alongside that person in their walk. It's not showing off, it's welcoming another person into the church and charging the congregation with being there for that person.

[paganbaby]

35 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

Baptism is something to be done in the community because it is an act of the Christian community. When someone is baptized, the church is asked if we will come alongside that person in their walk. It's not showing off, it's welcoming another person into the church and charging the congregation with being there for that person.

But what about using a public venue that includes people not in the congregation, who had no idea they would even be called on to witness the ceremony? They have no role to play other than unwilling observers.

[FundieFarmer]

But what about using a public venue that includes people not in the congregation, who had no idea they would even be called on to witness the ceremony? They have no role to play other than unwilling observers.

Yeeeeahhhhh. What FG is describing at rivers etc is a hot mess.

[dawbs]

On 5/12/2016 at 2:35 PM, formergothardite said:

 Does anyone remember the Christian comedian from the 80's who talked about all the different baptisms and made fun of how different denominations all claimed they were doing it right? It was amusing, but I can't remember anything abou the man except that he had long hair. 

 

Mark Lowry?
I can't find the clip you're talking about (although I think I know it), but, try this one p'raps?  

 

[SpurgeonSquarepants]

17 hours ago, smittykins said:

I've read that at one point, the Episcopal Church required confirmation before receiving Communion.  My ex-stepfather was raised Episcopalian, and claimed that on the day he and his twin brother were to be confirmed, the bishop was sick, so it never happened and thus were never able to receive Communion(why they couldn't have been confirmed the next year, I don't know).

Aww, that's sad! And yes, my mom was confirmed in the Episcopal church in the 60s. Couldn't get communion until afterward.

Fast forward to when I was young, so the 90s and I could partake from the moment I was cognizant.

Also, when my parents decided to get married, my dad had to take classes to switch from being a Protestant and they did not allow the traditional wedding song during the ceremony...they told my mom its actual name is "The Rape of Lucretia"...?!

[closetcagebaby]

On May 12, 2016 at 2:48 PM, withaj said:

The Blackmore clan certainly lives in its own special universe, but I wouldn't say the Duggar/Bates to FLDS/Blackmore comparison is totally apt. The post-split Winston followers are, of course, still similar to the FLDS in many, many ways (fundamentally similar, one might say ), but although Winston's a crazy megalomaniac, I don't believe for a second he's the downright sociopath Warren Jeffs is. I think the degree of exposure to the outside world and freedom to deviate from the stated path is much, much more favorable for the Winstonites than those in adherent FLDS communities. Both, of course, still troubling.

So far I believe it's only 3 or 4 of Winston's sons and 1 or 2 daughters who are living polygamy. I hope that number stays low (well, low is relative when one has 140+ children). 

I would caution anyone about believing that the Blackmore clan is any better than the FLDS, given their penchant for underage marriages, defrauding multiple governments, and incest. But I would agree that Winston isn't quite the straight up sociopath that Warren Jeffs is. 

[refugee]

6 hours ago, dawbs said:

(quoting @formergothardite) Does anyone remember the Christian comedian from the 80's who talked about all the different baptisms and made fun of how different denominations all claimed they were doing it right? It was amusing, but I can't remember anything abou the man except that he had long hair. 

Was it maybe Mike Warnke?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/09/the-devil-made-me-do-it-mike-warnke%E2%80%99s-ministry-of-lies/