Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[Anonymousguest]

4 hours ago, Thumb of Justice said:

The Maranatha Chapman engagement story is one of the most disturbing things i ever read. The way the father insinuated himself into every part of it was so extreme you couldn't parody it. The icing on the cake was that when Matthew was finally taken to marry Maranatha, who'd been moping around for weeks made up and dressed in her wedding gown, her father played some song he had written. He literally made a soundtrack for this bizarre spectacle he was micromanaging.

Years later I googled her to see how poor Maranatha turned out, and Maranatha went on to become a horrible homeschooling mother.  She wrote some long piece about how her teenaged daughter was doing everything she told her to do just right, but Maranatha "could not taste of her heart" so her daughter needed to be punished until she did everything her mother told her exactly right but with the right, tasty heart. Here she talks about how it's not enough to behave perfectly; you have to have the right Stepford Christian emotions:  http://womenofchristianity.com/are-you-raising-a-pharisee-by-maranatha-chapman/

I was raised similarly but less extremely. My fundie parents punished me when I was doing nothing wrong because I didn't have the right emotions. I was not allowed to express anger or unhappiness; those were forbidden feelings. It's incredibly unhealthy.

Maranatha also went I to marry off her own daughter when she was a teen. 

[Marshmallow World]

OMG.... I've been saving this gif for a special occasion. This is probably it.

 

Spoiler

 

[Free Jana Duggar]

The property they were to hold this disgusting event on is owned by The Salvation Army. Once they heard the purpose, they kicked this group to the curb and refused to rent to them.  TSA said it constitutes human trafficking and they want no part of it.

[roddma]

I havent read all these comments but yea the Maranatha Chapman story is the creepiest. They don't seem to show any real love toward spouses or kids yet they think their marriages are better.

I'm glad SA said no.

[Mela99]

I hope a bunch of fundie families RSVP to it ... I have a few thoughts on places in the area they might congregate. Plus, the Keilen family lives in DeWitt and that's only 20 Minutea away ... Maybe a Bates episode will be filmed?

 

[Anonymousguest]

2 hours ago, Mela99 said:

I hope a bunch of fundie families RSVP to it ... I have a few thoughts on places in the area they might congregate. Plus, the Keilen family lives in DeWitt and that's only 20 Minutea away ... Maybe a Bates episode will be filmed?

 

The Bates are not Reformed. I can't imagine they would be interested in this brand of crazy. 

[Mela99]

Added: figured out how to turn off the signature! Sorry guys

[ophelia]

4 hours ago, Anonymousguest said:

The Bates are not Reformed. I can't imagine they would be interested in this brand of crazy. 

I think it is so very difficult to differ all these different denominations. Is there a spreadsheet or anything similar that might help??

[laPapessaGiovanna]

10 minutes ago, ophelia said:

I think it is so very difficult to differ all these different denominations. Is there a spreadsheet or anything similar that might help??

I'd appreciate it very much if someone could come up with something like that. 

[ophelia]

On 8.5.2016 at 7:23 AM, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

Creepy Vaughn Ohlman's son's betrothal was discussed on FJ back in 2013.
 

Betrothed 2 hours after meeting for the first time.  

And Vaughn's take (from the Wayback Machine):  https://web.archive.org/web/20151103093416/http://truelovedoesntwait.com/announcements/the-story-of-the-betrothal-of-joshua-and-laura-ohlman/

Josh & Laura have facebook pages too.  

I read about this for the first time and I am shocked. Disgusting!!

[EmiGirl]

Reformed is not a denomination in itself it only refers to having Calvinistic theology. 

[FundieFarmer]

You can look up history of the church denomination trees on Google if you're confused. I've posted them before but I'm on mobile and don't remember which thread- sorry!

[choralcrusader8613]

5 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

You can look up history of the church denomination trees on Google if you're confused. I've posted them before but I'm on mobile and don't remember which thread- sorry!

Here you go :
 

 

[Audrey2]

I've been off Free Jinger for the weekend, but wanted to throw my two cents in.

 

So, basically, the idea behind this meat market was if a female had the appropriate parts and her plumbing was working, she is now defined as a woman instead of a child ( seems to be the meat market's definition). Besides the horror of potential 13 and 14 year old brides, my concern also revolves around childbirth. Since fundys aren't allowed to prevent it, and the plumbing is working, they can start families really young. We also know many fundys don't get appropriate prenatal care and choose poorly qualified midwives. I worry about young women who develop fistulas from delivering before their bodies are ready to deliver a child (not the same as getting pregnant). Fistulas are gruesome, not always completely repairable, and a huge problem in countries that encourage young marriages and childbirth.

 

I just wanted to bring up the biological problems behind the illogic.

 

 

[SpurgeonSquarepants]

15 hours ago, Mela99 said:

I hope a bunch of fundie families RSVP to it ... I have a few thoughts on places in the area they might congregate. Plus, the Keilen family lives in DeWitt and that's only 20 Minutea away ... Maybe a Bates episode will be filmed?

 

Seriously, with these fundies in my backyard why have I never seen any at Aldi?!

[Petrel]

From my reading obstetric fistulas are typically due to unrelieved obstructed birth.  This wouldn't happen in a hospital, and most women attempting home birth would go to the hospital if the baby wasn't coming after laboring for a long time.  The remainder would be a small enough number that I think this would be a rare complication. 

I don't see any reason to think they're marrying off 13 and 14 year old children?  That wouldn't be legal, generally.  

[ladyamylynn]

Would any of our former fundies care to perhaps write up a small "Cliffs Notes" guide to the difference between VF/Reformed theology and Gothardism? @refugee @formergothardite @THERetroGamerNY perhaps? Or really anybody else who cares to? 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 5/6/2016 at 11:47 PM, EyeQueue said:

So much this. And at least one commentor in another thread here has made the same mistake and has said something about the Duggars taking their unmarried daughters to this retreat. I don't know if s/he got it from what was said in the Raw Story or Wonkette article or just inferred it from one of those.

People IN THIS THREAD have mentioned Sarah Maxwell attending. The Maxwells are not reformed.

On 5/6/2016 at 11:12 AM, docmom said:

There is a world of difference between arranged Indian American marriages in which educated, ADULTS are included in the decision and have absolute veto power and the sale of children who have no input and no right to say no as advocated by this lunatic.

What is it  that makes your average underachieving "reformed" blowhard feel that they have discovered the only true way and that this knowledge gives them unlimited power over all the rest of humanity? 

You know, kind of like they were gods themselves.  Wonder if they've read the first commandment?

I am not sure I agree having dealt with a friend on this. In her family, the parents made the decision

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, ophelia said:

I think it is so very difficult to differ all these different denominations. Is there a spreadsheet or anything similar that might help??

 

12 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I'd appreciate it very much if someone could come up with something like that. 

I actually tried once.  I ended up with the most complex Venn diagram known to humankind and ditched it in despair.

A few things though:

IBLP/ATI and Vision Forum are para-churches.  In theory, at least, they are interdenominational although my own impression is that IBLP attracted more Baptists and VF more Reformed/Calvinists.  The VF crowd were open to alcohol, cigars and dancing.

The Family Integrated Church movement is another common denominator (see Scott Brown.)  People can be IBLP, VF and also think FIC is the cat's pyjamas. It comes down to Sunday School and Youth Groups are bad.

I can't think of anyone who has openly admitted they are "Quiverfull."  They just leave family planning up to God.

With a lot of these families you have to look at how they self-identify and then look it up.  It gets complicated because they lie, but a bit of experience helps with the tells.  KJV Only is one tell.

Fundy Farmer gave the Presbyterian Tree, but there are dozens of different flavors of Baptist and they have their own Tree.  Independent Fundamentalist Baptists are not at all like the Southern Baptist Convention.

Fundamentalism to the people we talk about means they believe in the Fundamentals.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

Some of our families pretty much invent their own Churches.   See Steve Maxwell, Rick Arndt, and John Shrader.  Shrader isn't Gothardite, he is very IFB leaning, approves of FIC, may have flirted with VF for money, but he's now calling himself Biblical Historical Baptist.  Whatever that is.

We toss around other terminology a lot too:  Rushdooneyism, Christian Reconstructionists, Theonomy, Kinism, and so on.  As I don't want to rewrite Wikipedia I usually ask people to Google them.  Wikipedia is actually surprisingly accurate about most of them.

I don't know whether that helps.

 

[THERetroGamerNY]

What @Palimpsest pretty much said. I'll list the official church lines of belief, but the chief issue with the people that we diss here on FJ is that they say they are such-and-such, but their actions are wildly off-track and dangerous... so I'm not sure what assistance this will be.

Calvanism is...
Based on the works of John Calvin.
Five points of Calvinism:
- "Total depravity". Mankind's sin has spread to every aspect of his being, because of the fall of Adam. Since the average person has this "total inability" to get outside of sin, he is unable to even understand the gospel unless God intervenes. This intervention is in the form of the Holy Spirit.
- "Unconditional election". Predestination basically. God has divided-up mankind into "the elected", and the rest. The elected includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant, and they are going to Hell.
- "Limited Atonement". Jesus did not die to save all humans, but only to atone specific sins of the sinners selected to be saved.
- "Irresistible grace". Every human God has chosen will find the grace of God. These elected people cannot resist the grace of God.
- "Perseverance of the Saints." Once saved, always saved.

The above is called "TULIP" - first letter of each key tenant.

Reformed Christian is generally...
They are against abortion.
They are for birth control, believing family size is between them and God.
The Bible is infallible.
Capital punishment is considered a last resort by them.
They believe in the separation of church and state.
They reject evolution.
They support dancing.
They are against divorce.
I think they are generally amillennialist? I'm a little fuzzy on that.
They are against movies that do not promote Godly values.
Homosexuality is a sin.
They accept the morning-after pill, because they view rape as horrific.
They allow women in ecclesiastical office.
They strong advise all children to attend a religious school.
They do hold meetings to discuss how their beliefs, and theology, should adapt with new scientific information, how that info is viewed against the Bible, etc. This has led to letting women hold ecclesiastical office, etc.

Gothardism...
Is a parachurch (an allegedly non-denominational drop-in supplement for any church).
Never abort.
Never use birth control.
Overpopulation is a myth.
Unless the woman cries out during a rape, she is at fault.
The Bible is infallible, and should be used and extrapolated to every single decision in your life, from how to dress; how to stand there with a happy smile; to how to hire a secretary - I'm surprised toilet selection isn't in there.
Church and state should not be separated - this is a war of us vs. them, and God needs all the babies we can produce to help overwhelm the opposition.
Reject evolution.
No dancing.
No divorce.
Accept authority in your life (patriarchy. Umbrellas of protection. Chains of authority).
A woman that has lost her virginity has lost her purity. If she is married, the grace of marriage absolves that impurity - divorce loses that grace.
Against TV, movies, and media that doesn't either hit neutral ground, or promote God.
No women in office. Pretty much all women can do is be homemakers.
Forget even religious schooling: Homeschool.
Don't spare the rod: Beat the child.
Tons of other minor things, such as not wearing clothing that is of mixed fabrics
Strict man-female gender roles. Homosexuality is a choice, and a perversion. And there is a "gay agenda" to overthrow the Godly structure of traditional marriage.

I'm not well versed on Vision Forum. They are defunct, so I never bothered to review their history. They struck me as all of Gothardism, plus "silly woman, you're not even really a human!" shit. Plus they seemed to produce their own line of media products to be selected by their followers.

[nelliebelle1197]

22 hours ago, roddma said:

I havent read all these comments but yea the Maranatha Chapman story is the creepiest. They don't seem to show any real love toward spouses or kids yet they think their marriages are better.

I'm glad SA said no.

Maybe you should see what they think about this on GOMI. When you were smack-talkin' us over there, you said you didn't have time for FJ anymore.

[Anonymousguest]

Calvinism= reformed, super short description is that God chooses you, you don't choose him.

On the opposite direction is Arminian, where you choose God. 

These to views effect how one sees sin, grace, sovereignty of God, etc. 

Both can be found in any degree of fundamentalism, one is not more likely than another. Reformed churches tend more theology oriented, arminianist more based on feelings and leading from the spirit. 

Bill Gothard/ATI rejects reformed theology, though he rejects most theology relying on his own interpretation. 

 

I would say what @THERetroGamerNY called reformed would be a working definition of fundamentalism. You see those traits in both evangelical and reformed.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

I'm not well versed on Vision Forum. They are defunct, so I never bothered to review their history. They struck me as all of Gothardism, plus "silly woman, you're not even really a human!" shit. Plus they seemed to produce their own line of media products to be selected by their followers.

 

I wouldn't say all of Gothardism but Patriarchal to the max!  Doug Phillips (who is a Tool) saw a niche and created his own Para-church.  He attracted people who were in the Reformed camp (Botkin and Sproul, Jr) and made inroads into the Fundie-lite and Evangelical camps too with his Film Festivals and "Christian" merchandise.  He was lax about dancing and other "sinful" things.  

We have always carefully avoided defining "Fundie" officially here because we include all religions.

I will add that Prosperity Gospel/Theology and any "Covenant Church" gets  on my personal definition of Christian Fundie.  MMV, but I advise people to run like hell away from either.

ETA.  I'd put both the Duggars and Bateses in the IFB camp.  Basically Patriarchal home churches expanding into store front churches each tub on it's own bottom and cherry picking theology as each Pastor/father sees fit.

Some of out IFB survivors may want to add more information or disagree with that characterization of IFB.

[Dandruff]

1 hour ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

What @Palimpsest pretty much said. I'll list the official church lines of belief, but the chief issue with the people that we diss here on FJ is that they say they are such-and-such, but their actions are wildly off-track and dangerous... so I'm not sure what assistance this will be.

Calvanism is...
Based on the works of John Calvin.
Five points of Calvinism:
- "Total depravity". Mankind's sin has spread to every aspect of his being, because of the fall of Adam. Since the average person has this "total inability" to get outside of sin, he is unable to even understand the gospel unless God intervenes. This intervention is in the form of the Holy Spirit.
- "Unconditional election". Predestination basically. God has divided-up mankind into "the elected", and the rest. The elected includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant, and they are going to Hell.
- "Limited Atonement". Jesus did not die to save all humans, but only to atone specific sins of the sinners selected to be saved.
- "Irresistible grace". Every human God has chosen will find the grace of God. These elected people cannot resist the grace of God.
- "Perseverance of the Saints." Once saved, always saved.

The above is called "TULIP" - first letter of each key tenant.

Calvinism really believes that those who aren't "elected" are going to Hell?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't?  What kind of loving deity would do that to a baby...or millions or billions of them?

[Petrel]

This is why Calvinists have a bad rep in a lot of people's views.  

The Calvinist vs. Arminian debates were some of the most vicious fights I've seen on religious forums.