Counting on- Part 7: Counting on Cancellation

[EmCatlyn]

20 hours ago, patsymae said:

Well, one major ritual of the ebil Catholic Church is that the pope,(the anti-Christ)--washes people's feet as a symbol of --well, choose 1) humility, 2) recognition of the God in others, 3) compassion, 4) all of the above. I'm looking forward to Ben's sanctimonious post about foot washing. No first-hand knowledge, but my understanding is that foot washing is also ritualized in the Amish church.

Maybe Jill and Derrick have refined it into general foot care/toenail polishing?

It isn't just the pope. During Holy Week priests will wash the feet of parishioners and in medieval times aristocrats would wash the feet of peasants. 

I pointed out a while ago that Derrick's attention to Jill's feet was probably a new version of the ritual.  But as for Jessa, I think she was just playing beauty shop.  You know, if Jessa weren't a Duggar fundie, I bet she would enjoy being some sort of beautician.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

I hate when people say they "train" their kids. WTF? Idiots.

I wonder what age Jana was when she was at the time. Probably too young to understand the dangers of such acts. But I'm sure she was beaten to stop the COMPLETELY NORMAL behavior. Michelle is such a freaking bitch.

If Jana started walking at eight months, I bet the period they are talking about is when she was less than two. She may not even remember the "training."   We don't know that she was beaten though. At least, I am pretty sure they hit her, but I think of "beating" as more than three swats.  The interesting thing is that Michelle describes Jana as still being willing to take risks because she knows if she makes a mistake she can fix it.  One should never trust Michelle's words, but if she is telling the truth then Jana isn't broken.  Jinger may be, but Jana may be able to retain some quiet sparks of self.  

[PennySycamore]

@Maggie Mae,  I spent the afternoon with three of my daughters and two granddaughters.  While the two granddaughters played with each other, their moms and aunt -the sisters- talked with each other about lots of stuff: the anti-LBGTQ bills that have come out recently, the cruise that my youngest recently went on, Lolita fashion, why good pizza is perfect anytime, and what flavor of ice cream that we should get Bruster's.  That kind of conversation is not unusual for the girls though.  We all just wish their sister in Tennessee could have been with them.

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

@Maggie Mae,  I spent the afternoon with three of my daughters and two granddaughters.  While the two granddaughters played with each other, their moms and aunt -the sisters- talked with each other about lots of stuff: the anti-LBGTQ bills that have come out recently, the cruise that my youngest recently went on, Lolita fashion, why good pizza is perfect anytime, and what flavor of ice cream that we should get Bruster's.  That kind of conversation is not unusual for the girls though.  We all just wish their sister in Tennessee could have been with them.

But the Duggar women wouldn't talk or know about any of that. They have limited palates and I'm sure pizzas are sinful or something. They probably have no idea what Lolita fashion is. They certainly don't aren't going to talk about lgbt legislation at any length. 

Ugh I'm so sad for these people. Doomed to only talk about boys and babies. 

[ClaraOswin]

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

If Jana started walking at eight months, I bet the period they are talking about is when she was less than two. She may not even remember the "training."   We don't know that she was beaten though. At least, I am pretty sure they hit her, but I think of "beating" as more than three swats.  The interesting thing is that Michelle describes Jana as still being willing to take risks because she knows if she makes a mistake she can fix it.  One should never trust Michelle's words, but if she is telling the truth then Jana isn't broken.  Jinger may be, but Jana may be able to retain some quiet sparks of self.  

Didn't they follow the Pearls recommendations? If so, then it would be what I would call a beating.

[foreign fundie]

Reading and thinking about girls chatter, I was just struck by the thought how potentially fun this family could be. Imagine the parents were normal. And you have this huge compound, plenty cash, 19 healthy kids at various stages of their lives. You could have a blast being a Duggar.

The girls could travel and study, the littles would have had their tree fort a decade ago. You could have big noisy BBQs. The boys could help each other set up their own businesses. You would never have to hire a lawer, a tow truck, a web designer, a physiotherapist  or a whatever, because just in your own family you could have so much expertise which you could share. If one person was in trouble, you could help out together. There would always be at least one sibling you feel close with and could confide in. The sisters could bring home cute girls from college to introduce to their brothers. The parents could enjoy watching their kids making plans for the weekend, seeing them taking their favorite little sibling along for special treats, hearing them discuss the news, a movie, attending their college graduations...

Heck, they could set up a proper family NGO, adopting a local school and pool their expertise and resources to help with special needs kids, improve the building, stock the library, build a gym, mentor troubled kids, the possibilities are endless with such a large family. 

Yet what do they do? Build a mini police state and suck the life out of everyone in their radius. And then multiply their chosen misery by forced procreation. What a waste of potential.

 

[EmCatlyn]

54 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

Didn't they follow the Pearls recommendations? If so, then it would be what I would call a beating.

I thought I heard here that they didn't start with the Pesrls' method until the 5th or 6th child.

[felinefundie]

18 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I thought I heard here that they didn't start with the Pesrls' method until the 5th or 6th child.

Michelle does say in one of the books that she "discovered" blanket training when Jed and Jer were babies. 

[socalrules]

@foreign fundie I completely agree. I thought about this when I watched the last episode. Can you imagine how fascinating it would be to watch a show with 19 kids who all had their own lives out in the world? Imagine what each of them could have accomplished had they been raised to be educated, independent individuals. 

[season of life]

You train animals. Children? You raise and nurture them.

Get a clue, Michelle.

[FloraDoraDolly]

2 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

Didn't they follow the Pearls recommendations? If so, then it would be what I would call a beating.

"To Train Up A Child" was published in 1994. So they couldn't have been using the Pearls' methods on Jana when she was a baby. IIRC, they started when Jed and Jer were at the crawling-around stage.

 

[imokit]

If they started the blanket training with Jed & Jer and we think they stopped it when the camera's started being around a lot, does mean that the only ones who were fully blanket trained, were 4 of the oldest howlers.  Justin was the baby in the first special as M was pregnant with Jackson.  Justin to Hannie would have been intermittently blanket trained depending on the cameras and Jenny escaped.  There was the sound of music episode on 17 kac where Jenny was at that age and JB had to stop her going for the stairs in a cinema/gathering house.  M was pregnant with Jordan.

But are we thinking that only 4 kids got blanket trained and 3 got it inconsistently?

Not to say the others haven't been hideously brutalised esp the older ones even without Pearls and blankets 

[Swamptribe]

5 hours ago, season of life said:

You train animals. Children? You raise and nurture them.

Get a clue, Michelle.

Yup.  We went over 'place' training in our dogs training class yesterday.  It involves training your dog to go to a particular place (rug, towel, blanket) on command and stay until released.  None of this training has ever involved beating our dog in anyway.  As a matter of fact, beating the dog is considered horrifying and a great way to destroy the bond you have built and the training you've already accomplished.  Yet, the Duggars and their ilk consider beating their children to be the key to raising them.

[Melissa1977]

7 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

Reading and thinking about girls chatter, I was just struck by the thought how potentially fun this family could be. Imagine the parents were normal. And you have this huge compound, plenty cash, 19 healthy kids at various stages of their lives. You could have a blast being a Duggar.

The girls could travel and study, the littles would have had their tree fort a decade ago. You could have big noisy BBQs. The boys could help each other set up their own businesses. You would never have to hire a lawer, a tow truck, a web designer, a physiotherapist  or a whatever, because just in your own family you could have so much expertise which you could share. If one person was in trouble, you could help out together. There would always be at least one sibling you feel close with and could confide in. The sisters could bring home cute girls from college to introduce to their brothers. The parents could enjoy watching their kids making plans for the weekend, seeing them taking their favorite little sibling along for special treats, hearing them discuss the news, a movie, attending their college graduations...

Heck, they could set up a proper family NGO, adopting a local school and pool their expertise and resources to help with special needs kids, improve the building, stock the library, build a gym, mentor troubled kids, the possibilities are endless with such a large family. 

Yet what do they do? Build a mini police state and suck the life out of everyone in their radius. And then multiply their chosen misery by forced procreation. What a waste of potential.

 

I'm sorry, but as a mother, I don't think a family of 19 kids is funny at all. When you have more than 3 kids closed in age, it begins to be difficult to give them enough quality time. The more kids, the less dedication.

Plus, even being the most lovely mummy on Earth, when you have 8, 10 children you are overwhelmed. You don't have your private time, you don't have quiet moments. Oh yes I know that Michelle has, but only because she has 4 unpaid nannies and a rod.

Children need dedication, hugs, conversation, plus sometimes they're ill or have difficulties in their studies. So some people can cope with only 2 children, maybe others with 6 or more. But no way you can be a real mother to 19 kids.

So the consecuence of this is that if you're born into a megafamily, you don't have real parents. Just "five minute parents", "sistermoms" and I think it may cause psycological problems.

I appologise if my message disturbs somebody. Maybe I'm wrong and it's full of people who can happily raise a lot of kids. Congratulations. But I'm a mother and I spend a lot of time with other families, and I see a lot of people who think that 3 is too much.

[JillyO]

Even if they didn't read TTUAC and start blanket training until Jed and Jer, I won't believe for a second that they didn't hit their children frequently before that. It was probably just less "structured," and didn't have such a conveniently obscure name. You have to be pretty used to physical violence against your own children in order not to run the other way the second you lay eyes on TTUAC.

[Melissa1977]

31 minutes ago, imokit said:

If they started the blanket training with Jed & Jer and we think they stopped it when the camera's started being around a lot, does mean that the only ones who were fully blanket trained, were 4 of the oldest howlers.  Justin was the baby in the first special as M was pregnant with Jackson.  Justin to Hannie would have been intermittently blanket trained depending on the cameras and Jenny escaped.  There was the sound of music episode on 17 kac where Jenny was at that age and JB had to stop her going for the stairs in a cinema/gathering house.  M was pregnant with Jordan.

But are we thinking that only 4 kids got blanket trained and 3 got it inconsistently?

Not to say the others haven't been hideously brutalised esp the older ones even without Pearls and blankets 

In the police report, one of the girls says that JB&M have a rod to beat the children.

About blanket training, I'm not sure about children form Justin to Hannie. Cameras are not recording every single day. If TLC is gonna record on May-June, they could easily blanket train on March-April, so the baby learns to stay quiet before the episode.

This said, I think in all of this megafamilies, little ones get less beatings. Tori Bates said something between the lines, like complaining because the little Bates were spoiled compared with the older ones. I suppose it's normal: parents are more relaxed (lots of kids to the the house chores), sistermoms don't discipline as hard as parents, etc. I'm not saying the little kids have a nice childhood at all, but it's highly probable that older ones have had a much worst one.

My question is if the grandbabies are being trained or not. It's difficult to imagine Zach and Whit abusing Bradley, but we don't know really. Maybe they are gently parenting now, but will them when they'll have 5 under 5?

[foreign fundie]

24 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I'm sorry, but as a mother, I don't think a family of 19 kids is funny at all. When you have more than 3 kids closed in age, it begins to be difficult to give them enough quality time. The more kids, the less dedication.

Plus, even being the most lovely mummy on Earth, when you have 8, 10 children you are overwhelmed. You don't have your private time, you don't have quiet moments. Oh yes I know that Michelle has, but only because she has 4 unpaid nannies and a rod.

Children need dedication, hugs, conversation, plus sometimes they're ill or have difficulties in their studies. So some people can cope with only 2 children, maybe others with 6 or more. But no way you can be a real mother to 19 kids.

So the consecuence of this is that if you're born into a megafamily, you don't have real parents. Just "five minute parents", "sistermoms" and I think it may cause psycological problems.

I appologise if my message disturbs somebody. Maybe I'm wrong and it's full of people who can happily raise a lot of kids. Congratulations. But I'm a mother and I spend a lot of time with other families, and I see a lot of people who think that 3 is too much.

I think a lot depends on the support structure you have (wider family, neighbors, church ) and type of community you are in (rural, (sub) urban, safe or unsafe) as well as the health of the children and parents and the financial resources available.

In nearly all cases I would say 19 is insane. I think I'd cap at 12, all things being optimal. But the stage they are at now, where neither parent needs to have a job, there is a grandma and quite a bunch of them are grown up, I think they could have a good family. Two full time parents I think are sufficient to give a normal level of parental care and personal attention (provided there are no special needs kids) and all other jobs (cleaning, cooking, tutoring, driving) they could hire people for.

If they were not so creepy crazy, this could be a fun family. But in that case they would not have had all those kids of course. Still, 19 lives, that is a lot of potential to waste... And though I would never (EVER) want to give birth to so many kids, I would not mind having ten or so siblings myself. I love big families. 

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, foreign fundie said:

If they were not so creepy crazy, this could be a fun family. But in that case they would not have had all those kids of course. Still, 19 lives, that is a lot of potential to waste... And though I would never (EVER) want to give birth to so many kids, I would not mind having ten or so siblings myself. I love big families. 

In my immigrant Catholic neighborhood growing up, there were lots of families which we would consider large at 7-12 kids or so.  They were usually spread out more than the duggars, like over 20 yrs, so there was more parenting time per kid.  They didn't necessarily seem more screwed up than the usual 4-5 kid families.  But like you mentioned, there was a lot of adult support, from aunts and grandparents, plus the church community, scout leaders, nuns who were teachers and could devote more time to the kids (they didn't go "home" to families, they lived on site.)  Or just friends' parents. I learned a ton from my friends' mothers.  The duggars have none of that.  It's so sad, because it was a lot of fun as we were going through our teens-20's and went to parties together, traveled together, helped each other find places to live or give job advice.  Even decades later we remember the fun parts.  And we had nowhere near the resources they have.

[nst]

according to my pvr again 

this week Jessa and Ben travel to SCARYCA

and we get a recount of how Ben and Jessa met and married 

and then next week's episode is called 

Israel meets Spurgeon 

where two children actually meet and a detailed list of how Jill and Derick met and married 

 

[Bad Wolf]

2 minutes ago, nst said:

according to my pvr again 

this week Jessa and Ben travel to SCARYCA

and we get a recount of how Ben and Jessa met and married 

and then next week's episode is called 

Israel meets Spurgeon 

where two children actually meet and a detailed list of how Jill and Derick met and married 

 

They've got to be kidding. Even the leg. humpers will be boRed.

[nst]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

They've got to be kidding. Even the leg. humpers will be boRed.

maybe there is a story we don't know  they have to milk this for  all it's worth 

maybe maybe we get a pregnancy announcement 

HA

 

[felinefundie]

A pregnancy announcement is a very likely possibility. Unfortunately. 

[2manyKidzzz]

1 hour ago, nst said:

according to my pvr again 

this week Jessa and Ben travel to SCARYCA

and we get a recount of how Ben and Jessa met and married 

and then next week's episode is called 

Israel meets Spurgeon 

where two children actually meet and a detailed list of how Jill and Derick met and married 

 

I wonder what Israel and Spurge will talk about.

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I'm sorry, but as a mother, I don't think a family of 19 kids is funny at all. When you have more than 3 kids closed in age, it begins to be difficult to give them enough quality time. The more kids, the less dedication.

Plus, even being the most lovely mummy on Earth, when you have 8, 10 children you are overwhelmed. You don't have your private time, you don't have quiet moments. Oh yes I know that Michelle has, but only because she has 4 unpaid nannies and a rod.

Children need dedication, hugs, conversation, plus sometimes they're ill or have difficulties in their studies. So some people can cope with only 2 children, maybe others with 6 or more. But no way you can be a real mother to 19 kids.

So the consecuence of this is that if you're born into a megafamily, you don't have real parents. Just "five minute parents", "sistermoms" and I think it may cause psycological problems.

I appologise if my message disturbs somebody. Maybe I'm wrong and it's full of people who can happily raise a lot of kids. Congratulations. But I'm a mother and I spend a lot of time with other families, and I see a lot of people who think that 3 is too much.

Just look at my forum name. I totally agree, as the oldest of 8. It is just too much to manage if you are not the perfectly organized person and the household duties and needs can take charge of the daily life at home. At least that is what happened in my home. It was 2manyKidzzz.

[socalrules]

I am trying to understand why it would be interesting for us to see Izzy and Spurge meet. They are babies who will not remember nor care. It doesn't even make good tv. Oh and someone needs to tell TLC that showing the weddings again isn't a plus because it shows just how bad and tacky they were. Outside of Jessa's dress, I would be embarassed to say that either was my wedding or that I was close to a person who had those ideas for a wedding/reception. 

I also don't see how another pregnancy would bring ratings. We have seen it before and there is no way to spin it to make it interesting. Will we have a special episode of a Duggar girl giving birth that doesn't need medical intervention because she actually made smart choices and didn't listen to badly trained midwife? Another courtship is going to just look like it was allowed for ratings. No one chosen for a Duggar girl is going to be of any substance and will just be someone who can be manipulated by Jim Bob. 

[jas]

4 minutes ago, socalrules said:

Another courtship is going to just look like it was allowed for ratings. No one chosen for a Duggar girl is going to be of any substance and will just be someone who can be manipulated by Jim Bob. 

If they don't have another courtship to announce after all the teasers, even the most sympathetic fans will be disappointed and pissed off.