Duggars by the Dozen- General Discussion Part 18

[2manyKidzzz]

@calimojo   I feel like that although we all know here that Gothardism is a cult, we don't know what the perception of the Duggarletts is toward their restrictive religion. Their perception is different from ours, naturally. And also,  despite the weird religion, this is Jana's family and the only life she has ever known. She loves all of them, even her strange parents. Sigh.

[calimojo]

Not sure I follow the context of your response to mine.  I didn't really touch on their Gothardism as much as I wonder if Jana is staying out of what she perceives is necessity because Michelle can't handle it anymore.  Michelle hasn't been a hands one mom since Jana was about 8 years old or so.  And with all the stress, the public life, the wear and tear on her body,  I could easily believe that Michelle is not really capable of parenting those kids.  They hire in the teaching,  the older kids do all the cooking and cleaning, and packing for trips, and organizing family stuff.   And the daily care and supervision and raising of the kids from Jackson on down, seems to all be down to Jana with help from Jinger and Joy.   The middle boys, are probably doing their own thing and don't need a parent too much now.  JB still functions as the spiritual, financial, family headship, but I am not sure what Michelle's function is at this point. 

[ksgranola1]

My husband's grandmother had 10 children. Big Italian family. His aunt told me it was just understood one of the girls would stay home & look after the parents as they aged, and one of the boys would go into the priesthood. So yeah, maybe that's part of Gothardism we haven't heard about. If she ever does wish to marry, she better put a little more effort into it before she slips into being called a spinster.

[2manyKidzzz]

8 minutes ago, calimojo said:

Not sure I follow the context of your response to mine.  I didn't really touch on their Gothardism as much as I wonder if Jana is staying out of what she perceives is necessity because Michelle can't handle it anymore.  Michelle hasn't been a hands one mom since Jana was about 8 years old or so.  And with all the stress, the public life, the wear and tear on her body,  I could easily believe that Michelle is not really capable of parenting those kids.  They hire in the teaching,  the older kids do all the cooking and cleaning, and packing for trips, and organizing family stuff.   And the daily care and supervision and raising of the kids from Jackson on down, seems to all be down to Jana with help from Jinger and Joy.   The middle boys, are probably doing their own thing and don't need a parent too much now.  JB still functions as the spiritual, financial, family headship, but I am not sure what Michelle's function is at this point. 

I see your point, and  I  think  I  just felt like it is not a problem for Jana to be there still.....yet....whether or not Michelle has lost the ability to be really functional. I don't know, of course, whether or not Jana sees it as the burden we might, because they are her family and she loves them and hasn't really considered any other path.

I don't know if that makes sense based on what you said. I don't always express myself well. It would seem. 

[calimojo]

No I get it now.  I agree,  it isn't a "Problem" for Jana to be there.  Lots of Kids from all over the world live with their parents well into adulthood, but given their culture of marrying young, and the constant speculation on the show about if she will or won't be courting soon,  I just think there may be reasons why she isn't.  I think she may feel a strong sense of responsibility to help with the littles and to run the house.  I don't Michelle can do it anymore and I think Jana knows this.  She always seemed to be close to her mom, so she may be staying because she really wants to be of support to her mom, especially if Michelle is not stable. 

 

There is a reason, beyond "Just haven't met the one God has planned for me yet",  as to why she and JD are still at home.  I think they are the true parents in that house.  JD probably manages the property needs and Jana manages the home and the Children.  JimBob manages the finances and side businesses with help from whatever unemployed Duggarling, or Duggar Spouse he can find. 

 

[2manyKidzzz]

15 minutes ago, calimojo said:

No I get it now.  I agree,  it isn't a "Problem" for Jana to be there.  Lots of Kids from all over the world live with their parents well into adulthood, but given their culture of marrying young, and the constant speculation on the show about if she will or won't be courting soon,  I just think there may be reasons why she isn't.  I think she may feel a strong sense of responsibility to help with the littles and to run the house.  I don't Michelle can do it anymore and I think Jana knows this.  She always seemed to be close to her mom, so she may be staying because she really wants to be of support to her mom, especially if Michelle is not stable. 

 

There is a reason, beyond "Just haven't met the one God has planned for me yet",  as to why she and JD are still at home.  I think they are the true parents in that house.  JD probably manages the property needs and Jana manages the home and the Children.  JimBob manages the finances and side businesses with help from whatever unemployed Duggarling, or Duggar Spouse he can find. 

 

I agree completely. And in my mind, at this stage she may have already seen all of the "eligible", i.e. GothardlyGodlyMen who would be "correct" for her. Where would new blood come in? She doesn't go anywhere else, that we know of of course. To me, she may have already "raised" a passel of children, if that makes sense. She clearly loves her mother very much. Maybe life at the TTH house is very comfortable for her at this point. I just hope she doesn't wake up one day and realize her choices for a husband have become very slim. But I don't know at all  of course. Maybe on some level she is wary  of having a headship of her own.

All conjecture. She and JD are nice people. Brainwashed, but nice people. 

[sophie10130]

I would love someone to study the SAHD phenomenon in fundie culture. It's usually one of the oldest, correct? I wonder where it started. And why the oldest? Is there an unspoken rule about the oldest staying to take care of the younger once the middle ones start getting married? Or is it just a role they fall into being the oldest and being around to take care of most of the children?

I also would like to know how other Gothardites view these older SAHD. Do potential suitors just decide not to pursue them because they have a "duty" and they don't want to get in the way? Do they view the older SAHD as failures? Do they judge them for not getting married? Perhaps the life of the SAHD is the only life for a woman who doesn't want to marry young and have a lot of kids. 

We have seen Jana talking about how she doesn't feel like an adult because she is not married and how hard it is to see her younger sisters able to get married and go on dates and live their own lives and start their own families. I just would like to know WHY Jana is still at home.

Also, as far as Jana knowing everyone in the cult and therefore knowing all her prospects, neither Ben nor Derick were in the cult. They had tenuous ties with ATI, I think, but that's about it. 

And doesn't Jana see Kelly Bates being present with her children and wonder why her mom is not the same? She may not have a lot of experience with other people, but she has a mirror image of her mega family with what seems to be a pretty attentive mom in the picture. Plus no older SAHD anymore.

[ksgranola1]

There was an "unspoken rule" in my husband's large family that one of the girls would stay home to care for the aging parents. So yeah, there is such a thing.

[EmCatlyn]

40 minutes ago, calimojo said:

No I get it now.  I agree,  it isn't a "Problem" for Jana to be there.  Lots of Kids from all over the world live with their parents well into adulthood, but given their culture of marrying young, and the constant speculation on the show about if she will or won't be courting soon,  I just think there may be reasons why she isn't.  I think she may feel a strong sense of responsibility to help with the littles and to run the house.  I don't Michelle can do it anymore and I think Jana knows this.  She always seemed to be close to her mom, so she may be staying because she really wants to be of support to her mom, especially if Michelle is not stable. 

There is a reason, beyond "Just haven't met the one God has planned for me yet",  as to why she and JD are still at home.  I think they are the true parents in that house.  JD probably manages the property needs and Jana manages the home and the Children.  JimBob manages the finances and side businesses with help from whatever unemployed Duggarling, or Duggar Spouse he can find. 

It is indeed probable that Jana is trying to care for her mom as well as her siblings.  However, I don't think that Jana sees her mother as unstable and incapable of caring for the kids. I think, rather, she sees Michelle as having sacrificed much and given a lot and now being tired and needing help/support. I would be very surprised if anyone in the family ever admits, even to themselves, that Michelle is not the perfect parent. 

There is a lot we don't know about these people.  The confusion/uncertainty about where they have the "guest house" is only one example of the many things we don't know.  But it does seem that Michelle has stepped back from hands-on parenting.  

We know that she enrolled Jana in helping care for her siblings when Jana was around 8, but I suspect the process of passing on parental duties was gradual.  As the oldest girl, Jana probably got some parenting from Michele. At the same time, there is probably also a long history of Jana needing to be Michelle's emotional support.  When the piano teacher and JB weren't there to see Michelle have a mini breakdown, it had to be Jana who listened, identified with her mother, validated. (I believe there have been many mini-breakdowns over the years. We only know of the Laundry Room Crisis because it was witnessed by an outsider.)

It is possible that Jana has been cast in the role of family caregiver or it may be that she claimed the role.  It is also possible that no conscious choice has been made on her part and that she thinks she is open to the right courtship with the right man.  She just isn't driven to choose the first man to come along because she feels useful and validated in the way her sisters didn't.  Jana has a role and some power in her family. The younger girls need to marry to be anything but J-slaves.

 

[ksgranola1]

I just watched the last ep. again & Jana said she didn't want to just get married & "stay home doing nothing all day." And that she wanted to work beside he husband. How I hope some farmer sees that & sends a request to JB.

ETA:

Does anybody else find those gray tags on the threads really annoying? The content of the threads is already obvious by their titles.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

-snip-

There is a lot we don't know about these people.  The confusion/uncertainty about where they have the "guest house" is only one example of the many things we don't know.  But it does seem that Michelle has stepped back from hands-on parenting.  

-snip-

 

This. This. This.  It is one of the more maddening aspects of their show that after 10 years of being on TV we still have no real idea of what the family does when the cameras are off and how the members interact with each other.  There is so much secrecy and obfuscating and downright lying over timelines and child rearing and likes/dislikes and jobs and education that we have more questions then we have answers. 

What does Michelle do all day?

Where does JD live?

Who is in a courtship and who isn't?  Who is not the slightest bit interested?

Did they still blanket train after the show started?  What about corporal punishment?

Do  they eat pork?

Which of the siblings are friends and which are not? How do they all feel about their parents?

What do the over-18s want to do with the rest of their lives?

Do the girls go out by themselves or do they have chaperones?

How much money do they make per show and how is the money divided up?

Do the over-18s have access to money and how much?

Who got their GED and who didn't bother?  Are they all literate and capable of age-appropriate level studies?

I have so many more questions but I have to go run some more errands.  Sometimes, though, I think we know very little about this "Reality" TV Show family.

 

 

[Drala]

11 minutes ago, Handmaiden of Dog said:

I have so many more questions but I have to go run some more errands.  Sometimes, though, I think we know very little about this "Reality" TV Show family.

My question:  Do they read books other than the Bible?  If so, what are some titles?

[OrchidBlossom]

4 minutes ago, Drala said:

My question:  Do they read books other than the Bible?  If so, what are some titles?

I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Before You Meet Prince Charming: A Guide to Radiant Purity, Created to Be His Helpmeet, Stay in the Castle, and they have said they read lots of biographies of famous Christians. I'd wager it's biographies and fundie lit. for them.

[Drala]

For some reason, I was expecting them to read a spiritual classic like The Pilgrim's Progress.  Or something by CS Lewis or Corrie ten Boom.  

[LittleSpouseOnThePrairie]

On April 3, 2016 at 0:16 PM, ClaraOswin said:

I thought most of the Duggars were sick of TTC.

 

On April 3, 2016 at 0:55 PM, ClaraOswin said:

Maybe they are having a big "welcome home, Josh!" party. Blech. A party like that deserves TTC.

Not sure if others also mentioned this, but I totally forgot about the Tatertot casserole acronym of TTC.

i seriously thought TTC was referring to "trying to conceive" for a minute and was wondering what the eff people were talking about until it dawned on me.

lol, I don't the think the Duggars will ever be sick of trying to conceive, and a party for Josh definitely would not warrant that haha!

[NotAnIncubator]

5 hours ago, calimojo said:

changing the topic a bit, but I wonder if Jana is staying because Michelle is mentally ill.  It isn't unheard of for a child to stay and help raise other kids when one or both parents are incapacitated.  Remember in Episode  1 or 2 of counting on,  when they were packing for CA,  Jana said she was staying behind to take care of the littles.  But Michelle also stayed behind.   That was telling to me, that Michelle can't or won't even muster up the effort to care for her own children for a week or two.  And honestly,  Even the littles are getting to be more independent than they were.  No one needs to dress Jenny or probably even Jordan anymore.  Josie might need some help. But they also have a tutor who does the schooling. 

 

I really wonder if Michelle has finally gone to that special place in her mind where she just can't function as a parent anymore.  And Jana feels she can't leave because of this.  It reminds me of a friend of mine who had a family of 10 kids, and one had Downs's syndrome.  It was just kind of widely accepted in the family that the 2nd to the oldest daughter, would get to keep the parent's house but would then become the guardian of the Down's sibling.  She never married, and after her parent's death stopped working outside the home so she could take care of her sister. 

 

Maybe Jana, either by choice, or by designation from her headship, has opted to remain in that home and finish raising up those kids and by then will probably need to provide custodial care for her ignorant parents.     When they talk about Courtship,  not only does Jana look uncomfortable because she is not in one, but she also looks completely  disinterested in having one.  I think she has raised enough children in her young life, and she knows someone has t0 help poor damaged and lazy Michelle. 

She only has 2 real options. Take care of siblings now and enjoy life relatively child free or get in a courtship and start all over with her own children. I don't blame her for not marrying yet.

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, Drala said:

For some reason, I was expecting them to read a spiritual classic like The Pilgrim's Progress.  Or something by CS Lewis or Corrie ten Boom.  

The Narnia series has a witch and talking animals. Don't know if that would be approved. I did see books in Benessa's house for Spurgeon, but don't know if they were all religious. Boring.

[MoonFace]

2 hours ago, Drala said:

For some reason, I was expecting them to read a spiritual classic like The Pilgrim's Progress.  Or something by CS Lewis or Corrie ten Boom.  

Never mind  

[Mothership]

15 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

CS Lewis would be a no no.   Some thing the guy was on drugs when he wrote Alice in Wonderland.   

Alice in Wonderland was written by Lewis Carroll.  CS Lewis wrote the Narnia series among other wonderful things.  He was a progressive theologian which would not have sat well with the Duggars.

[MoonFace]

Just now, Mothership said:

Alice in Wonderland was written by Lewis Carroll.  CS Lewis wrote the Narnia series among other wonderful things.  He was a progressive theologian which would not have sat well with the Duggars.

You are right!   SORRY!   

And I'm not even on drugs!  

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Drala said:

For some reason, I was expecting them to read a spiritual classic like The Pilgrim's Progress.  Or something by CS Lewis or Corrie ten Boom.  

I think they read about Corrie ten Boom.  They may even have read some of her books.  Pilgrim's Progress is probably too hard.  Yeah, it is not that much more difficult in language than the KJV, but it has all those symbols!  And it isn't blessed, so they can probably shrug it aside as "too hard."  Narnia is not ok because of the witches. But they could probably read some of Lewis's non-fiction.  

(Even though he was a "progressive theologian," when he talks about good and evil, Lewis would make sense to most fundies.)

[ksgranola1]

How many Littles are really home at the Duggar's now, not counting Anna's . I get 6. Those that are not teens?

Justin, Jackson. Johanna, Jenn, Jordyn & Josie. Did I miss one? Even tho they are all close in age, 6 doesn't sound like too many to handle.

[choralcrusader8613]

30 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

How many Littles are really home at the Duggar's now, not counting Anna's . I get 6. Those that are not teens?

Justin, Jackson. Johanna, Jenn, Jordyn & Josie. Did I miss one? Even tho they are all close in age, 6 doesn't sound like too many to handle.

The problem is that they've lived as they have for so long that I'm not sure they would be able to readjust their expectations of who actually needs hands-on help or a buddy (that's not an "accountability partner").

[Chickenbutt]

6 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

I also would like to know how other Gothardites view these older SAHD. Do potential suitors just decide not to pursue them because they have a "duty" and they don't want to get in the way? Do they view the older SAHD as failures? Do they judge them for not getting married? Perhaps the life of the SAHD is the only life for a woman who doesn't want to marry young and have a lot of kids. 

Maybe it is "understood" among the Gothard males that a girl of Jana's age is NOT to be courted since there are so many littles left at home to raise. And when those littles are grown, she will have to be available to care for her aging parents. Just a thought.

[Ungodly Grandma]

34 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Maybe it is "understood" among the Gothard males that a girl of Jana's age is NOT to be courted since there are so many littles left at home to raise. And when those littles are grown, she will have to be available to care for her aging parents. Just a thought.

Or maybe marry an older widower with a house full of half grown blessings.