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Duggars by the Dozen- General Discussion Part 18


samurai_sarah

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20 hours ago, Shiny said:

Yes I've always thought there was a bullying relationship with the boys. Or maybe not bullying, but he seems to have this alpha dog complex and gets jealous seeing the other boys coming up. Hence the creepy mini golf leg humping. He may as well have pissed all over the golf course. 

 

He has a bullying relationship with ALL his kids. If one of them covertly bought a plane ticket to a remote island in Micronesia and left a "see ya, wouldn't want to be ya!" note, he'd hunt the kid down and drag them straight back. I think those kids have zero control over their own lives. Things like Ben's calvinism and Joy's tomboy childhood are just illusions he lets them have, because ultimately they mean nothing. The Duggars have never been particularly interested in Christian theology outside of their legalistic practices, and Joy was forced into the fold of femininity at puberty. He still has all the control.

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1 hour ago, 16strong said:

He has a bullying relationship with ALL his kids. If one of them covertly bought a plane ticket to a remote island in Micronesia and left a "see ya, wouldn't want to be ya!" note, he'd hunt the kid down and drag them straight back. I think those kids have zero control over their own lives. Things like Ben's calvinism and Joy's tomboy childhood are just illusions he lets them have, because ultimately they mean nothing. The Duggars have never been particularly interested in Christian theology outside of their legalistic practices, and Joy was forced into the fold of femininity at puberty. He still has all the control.

THIS!

I've always said these kids only get the illusion of choice in their lives. They constantly tell the cameras that "Each child gets to choose their own courtship practices" (or whatever it is they happen to be talking about), but in actuality they've been given such a fire and brimstone look at any other kind of lifestyle that they're so terrified of any perceived evil in the world that they defer to their father's 'wisdom'. This always makes me sad for them. Even if they are able to see the world because of the cameras they're kept on such a short leash that they continue to have a warped view of everything. 

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I wonder if JB and Mee lie in bed at night and worry about their adult children.  Imagine a bunch of adults all living under your roof and not having any sustainable plan for their futures.  OMG, that is the stuff of nightmares.   

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On 4/23/2016 at 0:19 PM, EmCatlyn said:

If you have never known anything else, sharing a room may feel safe and cozy. Being alone may be scary.

The idea of the private bedroom is very recent in Western history. Even the aristocracy expected to share their bedrooms not only with siblings and same sex visitors but with servants.  Often when a husband was going to be away, the wife would bring a daughter, sister or even servant to share her bed or at least her bedroom.

Precisely! No one got their own bed, let alone their own room, even if they were moderately wealthy. In a time when there was no insulation and central heat hadn't been invented, sharing a bed during the winter was necessary to stay alive. The only time you would keep a fire lit in a bedroom overnight was if someone was sick, and in that case someone else would sit up the whole night and make sure the house didn't burn down. There are accounts of people living alone freezing to death on a particularly cold night. I've even heard stories about a father sleeping in between his daughter and his farmhand, so they wouldn't get up to any hey hey hey. Privacy as we know it is a very modern invention. That being said, I think the Duggars are aware that this is unusual. Whether most of the kids feel comfortable with it or not, I bet a few of them (my money's on Jana) really wish that there was more privacy.

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3 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

Precisely! No one got their own bed, let alone their own room, even if they were moderately wealthy. In a time when there was no insulation and central heat hadn't been invented, sharing a bed during the winter was necessary to stay alive. The only time you would keep a fire lit in a bedroom overnight was if someone was sick, and in that case someone else would sit up the whole night and make sure the house didn't burn down. There are accounts of people living alone freezing to death on a particularly cold night. I've even heard stories about a father sleeping in between his daughter and his farmhand, so they wouldn't get up to any hey hey hey. Privacy as we know it is a very modern invention. That being said, I think the Duggars are aware that this is unusual. Whether most of the kids feel comfortable with it or not, I bet a few of them (my money's on Jana) really wish that there was more privacy.

You are right about people sharing beds.  It wasn't just in the winter, though, and it wasn't just because of the cold. It was also because space was thought about differently.  Even very wealthy people lived most of their lives in large common rooms and beds could be found pretty much everywhere in a multi room house. Poor people and colonists/pioneers lived in one room houses with maybe a loft where the kids slept. Poor people even today have kids sharing beds or at least rooms.

But back to my point, there is nothing innate about wanting/expecting to be alone, especially while sleeping.  The private bedroom is a recent invention and not all cultures give it the importance we do.  One reason it may be important to us is a sort of class-based conditioning that associates space and "privacy" with status.

We are appalled that adults and near adults have to share a room with young kids in the Duggar house not only because we can't imagine ourselves surrounded by younger siblings all the time but also because if you have to share with little kids, doesn't that mean you have the status of a little kid?  The Duggars' choice to keep all the same-sex unmarried youngsters together emphasizes that they have no status as adults until they marry.

 

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4 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

You are right about people sharing beds.  It wasn't just in the winter, though, and it wasn't just because of the cold. It was also because space was thought about differently.  Even very wealthy people lived most of their lives in large common rooms and beds could be found pretty much everywhere in a multi room house. Poor people and colonists/pioneers lived in one room houses with maybe a loft where the kids slept. Poor people even today have kids sharing beds or at least rooms.

But back to my point, there is nothing innate about wanting/expecting to be alone, especially while sleeping.  The private bedroom is a recent invention and not all cultures give it the importance we do.  One reason it may be important to us is a sort of class-based conditioning that associates space and "privacy" with status.

We are appalled that adults and near adults have to share a room with young kids in the Duggar house not only because we can't imagine ourselves surrounded by younger siblings all the time but also because if you have to share with little kids, doesn't that mean you have the status of a little kid?  The Duggars' choice to keep all the same-sex unmarried youngsters together emphasizes that they have no status as adults until they marry.

 

I think there is a huge different between a peasant or pioneer family living in one room, and the dorms the J'kids are forced to live in. Maternal and infant mortality was such that many peasants and pioneer families weren't that much bigger than families today; Duggar-sized families would have been as much an oddity in 1816 as they are in 2016, and probably even stranger still in 1216. Recall that Michelle had pre-ecclampsia when she was pregnant with Jana and JD. Had Michelle been living at an earlier period of time, she almost certainly would have died.

Also note that while the unmarried and minor Duggars have to share rooms, JB and Michelle get their own room. In an "actually existing" peasant house, everyone would have been together, including the dogs, cats, and livestock. Until recently, it simply wasn't economical for the average house to have a bunch of rooms. The TTH and the land it sits on is quite large by any standard, but the kids are all squashed in two rooms. That's about control, not "we're making do with what we have."

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If the Duggars call their show a ministry ( as do the Bates, I believe) does that mean that they don't have to pay income tax on their earnings from the show?

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1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I think there is a huge different between a peasant or pioneer family living in one room, and the dorms the J'kids are forced to live in. Maternal and infant mortality was such that many peasants and pioneer families weren't that much bigger than families today; Duggar-sized families would have been as much an oddity in 1816 as they are in 2016, and probably even stranger still in 1216. Recall that Michelle had pre-ecclampsia when she was pregnant with Jana and JD. Had Michelle been living at an earlier period of time, she almost certainly would have died.

Also note that while the unmarried and minor Duggars have to share rooms, JB and Michelle get their own room. In an "actually existing" peasant house, everyone would have been together, including the dogs, cats, and livestock. Until recently, it simply wasn't economical for the average house to have a bunch of rooms. The TTH and the land it sits on is quite large by any standard, but the kids are all squashed in two rooms. That's about control, not "we're making do with what we have."

I don't disagree with your points. I wasn't arguing that pioneers had mega families. And I agree that the reason most people didn't have more rooms in the past was largely practical. (The cost of housing, the cost of heat, etc.) 

My point is only that there is nothing "innate" in the human psyche that makes us want private rooms. The idea of privacy changes from culture to culture and across the ages.  Yes, for JB and Michelle this is about control, about keeping the kids in subordination and also to deny them private (apart from the family) identity.  As products of our society, JB and Michelle  probably share, to some extent, our sensibilities about privacy.  But I am not sure the Duggar kids do.

Like people in other times, like people in other cultures, the Duggar children have grown up conditioned to feel that sharing a room with siblings is normal.  Not even the older three can remember a time when they weren't sharing a room.  They may not look at their bedrooms as places where they should have privacy because they have been taught to think that the only thing for which privacy is necessary is sex.  So married people have private bedrooms but unmarried people share with same sex siblings.  

I wasn't arguing that it is okay that the Duggars sleep in these dorm rooms because that is how it used to be in the past.  I have been saying that the idea of needing a private room is a culturally defined preference and that the J-kids have not been raised in a culture that has that idea.  

 

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2 hours ago, calimojo said:

If the Duggars call their show a ministry ( as do the Bates, I believe) does that mean that they don't have to pay income tax on their earnings from the show?

Oh, FFS I certainly hope not!

Does anyone know the answer to this?

These a-holes better be putting *something* back into the system, from which they so liberally take. I'm sure they benefit from taxes in other ways than just Josie's astronomical hospital bill.

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10 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Oh yes, they make their own courting rules. Thatt's why Michelle had a fit when Jill met Derick at the airport and they front hugged. Silly Duggars. Once you've said it on camera or the internet, it's there for ever.

I had never seen a clip of this before. Jesus. Get over it. These courtships are so short, who cares if you huge ONE TIME? You're going to be married in two months anyway. (I'm mostly exaggerating, I don't know the exact timeline of where Jill and Derick were at in their relationship at this point)

A lot of my friends read the book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" at a bible study that I did not attend because it made me feel weird. Looking back, I'm glad for my little teenage gut instincts. I remember them going through a side-hug phase as well as really over thinking where arms should go during "dating" hugs. Both over? Both under? One over and one under? Or is that too casual? It was all very bizarre to me. We were all so awkward at the time, boys included, that hugs didn't last for very long. And I personally never had the time to think about where my arms were going to go and what that signified in the half second before someone hugged me or I hugged them.

I also remember thinking to myself that I didn't have the boobs for someone to feel in a split second hug for them to lust over for years and years to come.

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4 hours ago, calimojo said:

If the Duggars call their show a ministry ( as do the Bates, I believe) does that mean that they don't have to pay income tax on their earnings from the show?

 

1 hour ago, EyeQueue said:

Oh, FFS I certainly hope not!

Does anyone know the answer to this?

These a-holes better be putting *something* back into the system, from which they so liberally take. I'm sure they benefit from taxes in other ways than just Josie's astronomical hospital bill.

Relax.  Declaring your work a ministry doesn't exempt you from paying income tax. Even bonafide priests and ministers have to pay income tax.   

If all we had to do to avoid paying taxes were to announce that our work was a ministry, I bet a lot more people would be out there ministering. (My taco stand is a ministry!)

The Duggars don't even claim tax exempt status for their "home church" as far as I know. It is  not as simple as just declaring you are doing the work of the Lord.  

That doesn't mean they don't have various tax dodges and tricks to avoid paying the taxes they should.  But they have to pay some.

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3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

Relax.  Declaring your work a ministry doesn't exempt you from paying income tax. Even bonafide priests and ministers have to pay income tax.   

If all we had to do to avoid paying taxes were to announce that our work was a ministry, I bet a lot more people would be out there ministering. (My taco stand is a ministry!)

The Duggars don't even claim tax exempt status for their "home church" as far as I know. It is  not as simple as just declaring you are doing the work of the Lord.  

That doesn't mean they don't have various tax dodges and tricks to avoid paying the taxes they should.  But they have to pay some.

That is a ministry I would actually support. And I would "donate" to it generously!

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Well, they are on tonight. I hope something happens in this ep. Isn't this the finale? I would like to see Izzy walk.

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1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

Well, they are on tonight. I hope something happens in this ep. Isn't this the finale? I would like to see Izzy walk.

The last episode is next week, but this week is part 1 of the finale.

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4 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

The last episode is next week, but this week is part 1 of the finale.

Oh wonderful. Stretching a boring episode into 2. How does TLC come up with these riveting ideas.

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I've been giving some thought to a kidult escapting the cult of JB (admittedly, way too much thought to this!), and I've got several theories:

1.  Not going to happen.  They are gulping the koolaid and have Koolaid IV's hooked up while they sleep.  

2. THe Duggars (especially the kidults) are pulling an elaborate scam on TLC and all of us.  THey secretly slip into yoga pants and play beer pong when the camera crew leaves.  THey mock us here at FJ while counting the money they've gotten from TLC.  If this is the case---Bravo!

3. Jana and/or Jinger and/or Joy really, really want to escape, but they simply can't leave behind the littles (especially Jenny).  They've seen what a tyrant JBoob is when something goes wrong -he has been physically, emotionally, psychologically punishing Joshley since his return and so emotionally punished Anna during Josh's rehab, that they can't bear to leave their siblings to his wrath should one of them flee.  If we truly feel that they live in the cult of JB, this is as likely a scenario as #1.

4.  Josie will escape/rebel.  She won't have had  to be a sister mom-except to possibly neices and nephews on occasion--but not daily.  She'll never know having to make dinner for 21 or do laundry for all her brothers.  She will finally get her own room/space.  She hasn't had to watch her mother's bizaaro pregnancy romances.   She will either never know the early days skimping that the others did OR will have seen to backlash of the cancelled show and cancelled attention and wonder WTF-screw this.

I told you, I've spent too much time on this!

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On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 10:27 PM, Honeysuckle said:

Upon further reflection, I realized I've always thought that JB has a mean sense of humor. So he probably was getting in a little dig disguised as a dad joke. "Look at me, I get to kiss all the time and make babies. Bet you wish you were me!"

I kind of see Jessa like that too.  In the last few episodes and even in the opening scene where they're all dancing, I see her as pushing the fact that she is married and has a kid in front of all the other siblings' faces.  I just get that feeling.  Like at the restaurant where it seemed she and Anna were sitting on one side of the table questioning the singles.  She just seems so smug and seems to subtly rub it in their faces. 

I don't know if others got that impression, but when you have this "inequality" between sisters or friends, I would be conscious of it and if I had the "advantage" (married when others weren't but wanted to be, or even first to get a job or get a driver's license) I would try to downplay it if I knew the others felt bad.  But I've been on the other side of it so I know how much that can sting when they are insensitive, or worst case, deliberately cruel.  So maybe that's why I notice that in Jessa.  I"m sure Jana is dying to get out of there and lose her responsibility to raising the rugrats, and here Jessa is going how great it is to have your own baby and house and be free of others' kids. I just feel she is so one-upping Jana all the time.  Anyone else see that or is it just me.

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I noticed Jessa is quite condescending, almost. When she and Anna were talking about the afterbirth in the kitchen and what she was going to do with hers and joy was grossed out and Jana had a look of "you don't talk about that in public (or on tv)" and Jessa said something like 'just wait til you get pregnant you won't find any of this  gross anymore". Wtf?  1- you haven't even had your kid yet and somehow you're an expert? 2- Jana seems to have been present at more births than all the others combined, I highly doubt she was grossed out. I think she was trying to help you not look crude (by Duggar standards that is). 

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1 hour ago, anotherone said:

I kind of see Jessa like that too.  In the last few episodes and even in the opening scene where they're all dancing, I see her as pushing the fact that she is married and has a kid in front of all the other siblings' faces.  I just get that feeling.  Like at the restaurant where it seemed she and Anna were sitting on one side of the table questioning the singles.  She just seems so smug and seems to subtly rub it in their faces. 

I don't know if others got that impression, but when you have this "inequality" between sisters or friends, I would be conscious of it and if I had the "advantage" (married when others weren't but wanted to be, or even first to get a job or get a driver's license) I would try to downplay it if I knew the others felt bad.  But I've been on the other side of it so I know how much that can sting when they are insensitive, or worst case, deliberately cruel.  So maybe that's why I notice that in Jessa.  I"m sure Jana is dying to get out of there and lose her responsibility to raising the rugrats, and here Jessa is going how great it is to have your own baby and house and be free of others' kids. I just feel she is so one-upping Jana all the time.  Anyone else see that or is it just me.

It's just you. ;-). I don't get that feeling at all. All the kidults are in transition. They don't even know they are in prison.

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1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

It's just you. ;-). I don't get that feeling at all. All the kidults are in transition. They don't even know they are in prison.

Stockholm syndrome......

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1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

It's just you. ;-). I don't get that feeling at all. All the kidults are in transition. They don't even know they are in prison.

FreeJana maybe mentioned it better, about 2 posts back.  Condescending is the word for sure.

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You know if the girls all actually wore some pants and went out and did stuff for an hour and talked about how it felt that would actually be so DIFFERENT from what they usually do I might actually look for a second. Yes. The Duggar Girls Wear Pants. But no, they'd never do that. What a fucked up world they've created for themselves. They can't even wear pants. We'd watch them wear pants on tv. And be interested. And they can't do it.

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14 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

Relax.  Declaring your work a ministry doesn't exempt you from paying income tax. Even bonafide priests and ministers have to pay income tax.   

If all we had to do to avoid paying taxes were to announce that our work was a ministry, I bet a lot more people would be out there ministering. (My taco stand is a ministry!)

The Duggars don't even claim tax exempt status for their "home church" as far as I know. It is  not as simple as just declaring you are doing the work of the Lord.  

That doesn't mean they don't have various tax dodges and tricks to avoid paying the taxes they should.  But they have to pay some.

:pb_biggrin: Sorry. The potential tax dodge thing gets my goat. :) I'm glad to know that there's more to this than just declaring something's a ministry and getting out of taxes.

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Coming out of long-term lurkdom, this is my first post so go easy on me.

It makes no sense to me what TLC is (not) doing with the Duggars. They are a business, they produce tv shows to make money, but what is the business case for The Most Boring Show On Earth? Either drop the Duggars already, or do something with the show. There are so many, even relatively inexpensive ways to inject some drama into it, so why won't they do it? I'm sure JB cannot still be running the show on his terms, if he ever was. They could easily do something different and bring up the ratings.

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48 minutes ago, MadameOvary said:

Coming out of long-term lurkdom, this is my first post so go easy on me.

It makes no sense to me what TLC is (not) doing with the Duggars. They are a business, they produce tv shows to make money, but what is the business case for The Most Boring Show On Earth? Either drop the Duggars already, or do something with the show. There are so many, even relatively inexpensive ways to inject some drama into it, so why won't they do it? I'm sure JB cannot still be running the show on his terms, if he ever was. They could easily do something different and bring up the ratings.

Love your username!

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